Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[AWP290]

The point is, they did operate as separate trains at times.  The ones I have in mind did not ever, to my knowledge, do so.

Dates of operation were early 1960's until Amtrak.

Bob

[al-in-chgo]

Johnny makes a good point.  Actually, for years, the train(s) ran combined in the off-season but went separate  in the high season of summer.  The Santa Fe actively courted Boy Scout travel on El Cap from Chicago to the station for Philmont, a huge camp of theirs.  I am told that in the 1960s the ATSF Chicago - L.A. route actually picked up a few passengers from other lines that were no longer offering thru Chicago - L.A. (or S.F.) service (Rock Island comes to mind).  The Philmont connection may have added to that load (ca. 1966) but I don't really know.  I can tell you that ATSF advertised like crazy in the mid-Sixties in Boy's Life, the magazine for all (male) Scouts. 

But if it isn't what you're looking for, well, I agree with Johnny, couldn't we have a time span or some kind of hint?  Origin or way station maybe??  -  al

 

 

[Deggesty]

AWP290

That may be true, but those trains operated as separate schedules much of the year and combined part of the time.  These are not the ones I have in mind as they never had separate schedules, to my knowledge.

 Bob

Bob, I don't have all the schedules over the years handy, but in 1958, depending upon passenger load, the Super Chief and El Capitan were operated on one schedule with the same number (one would be First 17 and the other Second 17 when there was enough traffic to warrant separate operation) whether they were actually two trains or one combined train. They did not share all the reasons for conditional stops, but there is a note that if they were operated as one train, either train would make the same conditional stops as the other. In 1950, their schedules were quite different, both eb and wb.

Can you give us a time span for the operation of the two trains you have in mind?

Johnny

[AWP290]

That may be true, but those trains operated as separate schedules much of the year and combined part of the time.  These are not the ones I have in mind as they never had separate schedules, to my knowledge.

 Bob

[al-in-chgo]

The Super Chief and El Capitan.  For most of their history the Super Chief was all first-class and El Cap was all coach.  They had exactly the same schedules.  Now, how two bodies can occupy the same space at the same time is beyond me, but it helps a little to think of them as being two "sections" of the same Chicago - L.A. train.  In the Sixties the two trains were combined but IIRC kept the separate Super Chief designation for the Pullman haul, and El Cap for the coaches.  All that went out when Amtrak took over in 1971. 

 

 

[AWP290]

As I said, the CM is a fascinating road to study.

Now for the next question:  What all-Pullman and all-coach trains operated on the identical schedule?  I'm not talking about the same running time, but the identical departure and arrival times throughout the entire run.  I'm aware of only one set of trains where this situation prevailed.

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

[daveklepper]

Thanks for the correction on the Midland Terminal.   I should have written Divide and not Leadville.   Also, it is true that Rifle - Grand Junction was joint track of both D&RG (no W then) and CM, and now hosts the CZ.   But the jointly owned comoplete railroad was really the entire Rio Grande Western, from Grand Junction to Salt Lake City.  This was not complete a D&RG subsidiary at the time, as the CM had contributed to the cost of converting it from narrow to standard gauge, so its (CM's) trains could run through to Salt Lake City, as well as those of the D&RG.   Again, CZ territory today.   Sometime after the CM abandonment, the D&G and RGW merged to form the D&RGW.

 

CM was definitely the answer I was requesting, and I will look forward to your question.

[AWP290]

"Divice" in the previous post should read "Divide."

Caught that typo just as I hit the "post" button.

Bob

[AWP290]

It was not my understanding that my answer was correct, though I'll be happy to come up with a question.  Let me know.

The Midland Terminal was already in existence as a connecting line for the CM, having been incorporated in the late 1880's.  It connected with the CM at Divice, Colorado, and ran from there to Cripple Creek.  It originally leased, then, when it became apparent that the CM would not be revived, bought the CM's line from Colorado Springs to Divide and operated it until February 1949, when the Golden Cycle mill in Cripple Creek opened, eliminating the need for the railroad.

 Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

[daveklepper]

Bob Hanson had all the right answers and should ask the next question.   But thre reason the line was abandoned is also interesting.   This occured while USA railroads were under control of the Feds.  Initially, they routed very little traffic over the CM (which in fact was a logical extension of the Rock's line to Colorado Springs for transcontinental traffic).   Most went via the UP through Ogden or the D&RG via Pueblo.  (The Dotsero connection was still ten years in the future.)  CM's management complained and was rewarded with a deluge of traffic that the line could not handle, similar to redent "meltowns."  Since the line could not handle the traffic without tremendous delays, it was embargoed and then went out of business.   The Midland Terminal Railroad was incorporated to operate the Colorado Springs - Leaville portion which it did until sometime after WWII.

[AWP290]

Obviously this is not what you had in mind, but Amtrak's California Zephyr still operates between Glenwood Springs and Grand Junction over the what was the former jointly owned Rio Grande Junction Railway.  This was the current service I was thinking of when I made that comment.

 As I said, obviously what you had in mind.

Bob Hanson

[Texas Zepher]

AWP290

Sounds like the Colorado Midland Railway to me.

That is a good guess however I can't figure out how that would fit with the second clue about the passenger train joint with a class 1 that still has passenger service today.  There aren't even any tourist trains running on old Colorado Midland rights of way anywhere - unless he means when the D&RGW used the old Midland route to cross the Colorado river east of Glenwood Springs, CO. when they put in I-70.  That was long after the Midland had been gone and is really stretching it as a "connection".   Originally the D&RG (not the D&RGW) crossed the river right there in Glenwood and ran along the north bank.  The Midland ran along the south bank.  It was long after the Midland abandonment and the recievership of the D&RG into the D&RGW that any of this happened.

Seems to me like that for the passengers would have to be back east somewhere.

[AWP290]

Sounds like the Colorado Midland Railway to me.  Ceased operations in 1918, officially abandoned in 1921, and was reputed to the the largest abandonment in the US until that of the New York, Ontario & Western in 1957.  (The Missouri & Arkansas may have been a mile or two longer, but I don't know for certain.)

The Wildflower Excursions were better known than the regularly scheduled passenger trains.

A truly fascinating railroad.

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

[daveklepper]

Wrong,   I am talking about a much earlier abandonment and it was the complete railroad with the usual subsequent short line operation of just small pieces connecting with other class I's.

 Hint:  An old issue of TRAINS had the complete story, with the cover showing the abandoned ROW.

 

Second Hint.   An important connection (extremely important connection) was joint with another class I and is part of a class I today.   With passenger service.

 

Third Hint.   While it existed, doing interline freight and passesnger service, its excusion trains of a particular type were better known that its regular passenger service.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I would say that the first large Class I abandonment was the original SP main line to Promontory around the north shore of the Great Salt Lake.  It was abandoned in 1942 as part of the scrap metal drive for WW2.

[daveklepper]

The Union Freight Railway was a freight street railway, like Manufacturers Railway in New Haven and Bush Terminal and South Brooklyn in Brooklyn, New York.   But unlike the latter three, it never used trolley wire, but used steam tank engines, something like the B&O Dockside Switchers, for most of its life.  It ran under the Atlantic Avenue Elevated from South to North Station. connecting the NYNH&H and B&A/NYC with the B&M  and served many docks, warehouses, and small industries with private sidings along Atlantic Avenue with a double track line that merged into single track for Causeway Street, partly shared with BostonEl/MTA tracks.  IN 1947 Alco produce a movie of its complete conversion to Alco diesel switcher power.

The Grand Junction Railway was totally owned by the Boston and Albany in turn owned by the NYC System and ran from the main B&A freight yard next to the Charles River near Brighton to the docks at East Boston adjacent to where the BRB&L narrow gauge terminated, and where the B&M also had docks.   From Sommerville to East Boston its tracks were adjacent to those of the Boston and Maine and it still has interchange with the B&M in Sommerville, a CSX-PanAm interchange point.  When an undergraduate at MIT (it boarders the campus in Cambridge) I would see a variety of steam power, including six wheel switchers, Mikados, and even occasionally a suburban 4-6-4T.  It was dieselized about 1951 or 1952.

 

New Question:   What, where, when, and why the first large Class I abandonment. 

[daveklepper]

 

Should I ask another question after anwering the above or is there anyone who will attempt an answer?

[daveklepper]

Shipyard Railway was opened during WWII (I think during 1942) by connecting together streetcar and little-used and unused frreight tracks, to provide efficient transportaton for Bay Area shipyard workers.  Regular 600V dc trolley wire provided the power.  Second Avenue Elevated cars made the transcontinental trip on their own wheels.  Pantographs from scrapped SP-Bay Area and SN interurban cars replaced third rail shoes, and the trains were operated by Key System operators.  Special high-platform stations were constructed.  They did not operate over the Bay Bridge into SF.  At least one car is preserved at the Rio Vista Junction museum.

 

NEW QUESTION:   It is 1947 and I wish to move  box car, or express car, from South Station to North Station in Boston.   What are the shortest and next-shortest routes and what power (locomotives) would they be using?

[daveklepper]

The Dyer Avenue lined was opened as a shuttle running from the southbound NYW&B platform at E180th Street (free transfer to the adjacent IRT elevated structure station via an existing passengeway) north to Dyer Avenue.   The middle express tracks had been removed except for some layup tracks north of E180, the 11000V AC catenary had been replaced by IRT standard third rail, and the signals were of the IND-BMT standard, not the IRT standard.   (Diverging route green over yellow, not red over green, and straight route green over green not green over red).   The initial few days of operation was with three-car open-platform wood gate cars salvaged from the 2nd Avenue Elelvated, whose Queens line shut down about the same time, the line to the Bronx having ended in 1940.  Lack of patronage meant consist reduction to two cars very quickly.  There was one connecting crossover north of the 180th Street station, and this became the northbound track when through service was finally established sometime after WWII.    (Date, anyone?)   Before through service was established, the track layout on the elevated structure north of 180th Street was reconfigured, and a flyover bridge track installed to take southbound trains off the Dyer Avenue line and allow them to access the southbound local or center bi-direictional express track at E160 without conflicting with northbound trains to 241St and White Plains Avenue.   Steel car service started sometime before through service was established, with classic Low-V IRT standard prewar cars, 4 or 5-car trains, if I remember, since the area served built up rapidly.   The elevated open platform cars had to have subway type third rail shoes attached, replacing their  gravity type elevated shoes.   I don't know of any other modifications to these cars.   The idea of using part of the old NYW&B RofW was suggested by the Bronx Borough President as an alternative to the expense of the planned extension of the D-train east from its 205th Street terminal.

 

If someone else wishes to relate the history of the Shipyard railway, I'll be happy to let him or her ask the next question.

[daveklepper]

OK the answer was the Shipyard Railway, which most of you knew already, and the New York subway system's Dyre Avenue Line, which opened with two-car gate-car trains from Dyar Avenue to one of the two platforms of the old New York Westchester and Boston station at East 180th Street for a free transfer through the old existing walkway to the Lexington Avenue White Plains Avenue line (on an elevated structure).   Rather than posting a new question, can I please give that honor to any of you who can complete the details of the equipment and subsequent operations of both lines?

[daveklepper]

Please post your complete reply.   You are correct.  Except that they were all second-hand 2nd Avenue el cars, not 3rd Avenue, which continiued running until well after WWII.   You picked the correct two lines in your private corresponance to me.   You might do a little more research on the one still operating and see how it changed.   The original trains were only two-cars long in regular service!

 

And then post a  new question.   Thank you for your reply.

[narig01]

 

Deleted as it only covered one of the two routes.  Sorry I did not read the whole entry.

Rgds ign

PS to D.Klepper. sent you the text of this.

[daveklepper]

Further hint:   Both routes opened during WWII.

[daveklepper]

A hint seems in order since there are no takers so far.   Here are two hints:

One of the then new routes currently does see electric passenger service over the route.

One of then new routes was east coast and one west coast.

[daveklepper]

Most readers know that the Boston Revere Beach and Lynn (in Boston "The narrow guage") had its wood-bodied open platform coaches converted into electric mu cars by General Electric in 1930, some time after construction of wood passenger cars had been replaced by steel.   But after this conversion, there were two NEW transit system routes opened that opened exclusively with wood-bodied open-platform mu cars, both standard gauge.

What two lines were they, and when did they open?

Why the use of wood open-platform cars?

What was the source of these cars?

What electrical-mechanical changes were needed to fit them for their new assignment?

What is the current status, operation if any, and equipment if any on these routes today?

What if any of this wood equipment has survived and where?

Please do not answer if you know of only one of the two routes.

[wanswheel]

Dave, it's your turn if you got a question. 1904 NY Times article about test run:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9B02E2D61E3BE631A25750C1A9679D946597D6CF

[daveklepper]

I do not have access to any data, but my memory says the first prototype and experimental S-1 was built in 1902 and tested and modified extensively before the GCT electrification was opened a few years later.   The electrification was opened before GCT was completed, and at first the New Haven did use NYC DC power into GCT before completing its own first electrification to New Rochelle in 1910.   At least that is what I remember.  I think the production S-1's were built in 1904.

[wanswheel]

What year was the first electric locomotive of New York Central built?

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=958926

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/nyc100.jpg

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=99341&t=w

[DSO17]

CSSHEGEWISCH

Close enough.  South Shore purchased ten R-2 motors from NYC and rebuilt six of them in 1955-1958 as 701-706.  In 1966 or 1967, an additional R-2 was rebuilt as 707, South Shore's last electric.  One or two of the R-2's purchased by South Shore also spent some time in the Detroit River Tunnel electric zone.  The rebuilding involved conversion from 600 VDC to 1500 VDC and from third-rail to overhead current collection.  DS017, you get to ask the next question.

 

     I don't have a question ready. Somebody else jump in with a question.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

DSO17

CSSHEGEWISCH

Still looking for a response on my South Shore question, I didn't think that it was that tough.

 

    During the 1960s didn't the South Shore rebuild some former NYC electrics for freight service? IIRC they were numbered into the 700 series.

 Close enough.  South Shore purchased ten R-2 motors from NYC and rebuilt six of them in 1955-1958 as 701-706.  In 1966 or 1967, an additional R-2 was rebuilt as 707, South Shore's last electric.  One or two of the R-2's purchased by South Shore also spent some time in the Detroit River Tunnel electric zone.  The rebuilding involved conversion from 600 VDC to 1500 VDC and from third-rail to overhead current collection.  DS017, you get to ask the next question.