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Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:29 PM

The test car was a Cincinnati and Lake Erie "red devil" high speed on the Philadelphia and Western between 69th St. Upper Darby, Philadelphia and Norristown.  (I believe it never ran to Stratford).  I cannot supply the car number at the moment.   It returned for regular operation 1938 - 1949 as a Liberty Bell Limited car on the Lehigh Valley Transit's through run from 69th to Allentown, with the whole fleet sold to the LVT.   Conway was the man, but I have been blocked on his first name. (Arthur?)

The evaluation of the C&LE car resulted in the development of the Philadelphia and Western "Bullets."

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, September 29, 2014 7:03 PM

C&LE 127 made three trips on P&W in 1930, one with prototype Brill "Bullet" trucks.  It later returned as Lehigh Valley Transit 1003, entering the Strafford line on one trip  but not going all the way to Strafford.  C&LE and P&W were both controlled by Dr. Thomas Conway, who was also interested in other "high speed" properties like the Chicago Aurora & Elgin.  Dr Conway engineered the sale of several the "Red Devils" to LVT before C&LE's final abandonment in 1939. Others of the C&LE cars went to the Cedar Rapids and Iowa City, with LVT and CRANDIC also acquiring one Indiana RR "High Speed" each, in each case as a replacement car for a former C&LE car.  Conway's designs for the Bullet led to the trademark P&W design.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 4:53 PM

What in the world made me write "whole fleet."  I did know that a large number, about ten, went to Crandic.  But there were more than "several" of the C&LE cars sold to LVT, I would guess about 20.  At least I think I remember riding 1018.  Also, I may have erred in that the P&W cars may have been built before the C&LE lightweights, not after,  and the test of the C&LE car was to demonstrate capabilities before the track rehabilitation on the C&LE allowed high-speed operation there.  The entire C&LE lightweight fleet was sold, as opposed to the Indiana RR where only 2 out of about 32 were sold.  Yet the IR cars were superior in certain respects, although slightly heavier.  The C&LE cars came on the market first.

My question:  (1)  In the NY subway system, what route designation, number or letter, has had the most route changes of any,  Simple extensions don't count.   (2)  What specific station has had the most changes in which route(s) served it?    This should be a snap for someone with a map NY subway map collection,  

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 2, 2014 9:47 AM

do you need more time or should i withdraw the question and ask another?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 5, 2014 4:17 AM

question has been unsanwered for too long

Church Avenue on the F Line was opened with A train service via fulton and chambers st manhattan, then the E replaced it via Essex and houston sts in manhattan, with the A going to the temporary terminal at Fulon (Brooklyn) and Rockaway, then the F replaced the E with the opening of the 6th Avenue subway in 1940, then the postwar Ditmas connection brought the D replacing the F, the Christie St. Connection moved to the D to the Brighton line and the manhattan bridge, with the F restored, and then the f experimental rush hour express service saw the G running to Church and removed, with the F remaining,

Southern terminal for the D was initially Hudson Terminal renamed World Trade Center, then it was moved to the Houston and Essex route and the culver to coney Island, then Chrystie St, connection moved it to the Manhattan Bridge and the Brighton Line to Brighton Beach, weekends and nights to Coney island, now moved to the West End to Coney Island.   North end has remained to East 205th Street via The bronx concourse.

The Park Avenue Vehicular tunnel was originally used by steam trains and horse cars, then by conduit powered electric streetcars, until the first of the GM-owned Green Lines was converted to buses on the surface in December 1935.   But there was another stretch, even longer, of conduit Manhattan streetcar trackage, on the surface, that was private right-of-way.  It was paved, and in an emergency robber-tired vehicles could easily use it.   The line was converted to bus early in 1936.  I remember seeing the tracks but don't have a memory of riding the cars, although I am certain I did with parents or other adults, and I rode the replacement bus many times.  All signs of it being a separate ROW were quickly removed after bus conversion. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 9, 2014 1:00 PM

OL   New York transit trivia doesn't seem very popular with posters these days, so we will move on.

Between Western Pacific's ending passenger service and the consequent end of the real California Zephyr, and the start of Amtrak, for little over a year, the CB&Q and D&RGW were required to provide a three-times-a-week "California Service" connecting with SP at Ogden.

On the CB&Q the train was combined with two others in and out of Chicago, with the timetable showing it combined officially with one of the two.  What were the other two trains and their destinations, and where did combining take place?   What equipment actually ran through from Chicago to Ogden, and where did the other equipment leaving Chicago terminate?  Was any equipment and what was it that was picked up on the way to Ogden and dropped on the return?  Did this service in truth continue to operate to Ogden until Amtrak, and if not, what happend and why?

A New York Railways, Green Lines subsidiary, was the Eighth and Ninth Avenue Railway, with streetcars approximating today's M10 and M11 bus routes.  Between 59th St and 110th St. the double conduit tracks were on the extreme east side of Central Park West, with auto traffic directed to the remaining lanes, leaving the streetcar track paved (cobblestone) right-of-way for streetcars only. Converted to bus early 1936 with street completely repaved.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 9, 2014 4:18 PM

We're drifting into the 1970s... For the record, the current cutoff date for the quiz forums is October 9, 1964...

From the August 1970 Official Guide:

The "California Zephyr Service" operated tri-weekly combined with unnamed trains 11 and 12 (Dinette-Coach and Chair Cars), Westbound MoWeFr, arriving in Chicago EB MoWeSa.  From Omaha to Denver it operated as an Extra, with no public train number, though it seems to have remained as 17 and 18 in the Employee Timetable.

Chicago- Denver

  Chuck Wagon

Chicago-Salt Lake City

  4 room Vista-Dome Observation Lounge

Chicago and Ogden

  46-seat Vista-Dome Coach

 10 Roomette-6 Bedroom Sleeper

D&RGW added a dining car Denver-Salt Lake City

SP had coaches, sleepers, a diner and a home-built dome-lounge on the tri-weekly City of San Francisco, the cross-platform connection at Ogden.

The "California Zephyr Service" lasted until Amtrak (which initially expected to operate via the D&RGW),

with the D&RGW operating the Denver-Ogden service (minus the 10-6) until 1983.

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Posted by NorthWest on Thursday, October 9, 2014 6:05 PM

Sorry Dave, I would have answered but I haven't had time. I'm interested in what is quoted below:

daveklepper
But there was another stretch, even longer, of conduit Manhattan streetcar trackage, on the surface, that was private right-of-way.  It was paved, and in an emergency robber-tired vehicles could easily use it.

Freudian slip? Smile

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 10, 2014 6:21 AM

rubber to robber?   well, gm did buy ny railways in 1926 with the obvious intention of converting the system to bus as soon as a reliable transit-like vehicle was developed.  was the 1935 gm yellow coach the first reliable local transit bus that was not a hood-in-front vehicle like today's school-buses?   they also included the nycentral's ny and harlem streetcar lines, 4th and madison and 86 st crosstown, as part of their system and bought those lines outright in 1934.  in december 1935 the conversion process began with the 4th and madison, symbolic, because it included north america's first street railway, with its tracks south of 42nd st hosting  mixture of horse cars and steam trains before conduit electrification, steam first banned south of 29th st. then south of 42nd st, and then banned altogether in manhattan.

rc has his facts straight, except that leaving chicago there was another train also combined.  what was it and where did it split and to where did it go?   also, the rio grande zephyr, that coexisting with amtrak for a while, did not always run to ogden.  it was actually cut back twice.   what were the reasons and what substituted in each case?   when amtrak took over the service, on start-up, did they actually reroute their now renamed train, san francisco zephyr to california zephyr, to the moffat line, or did it continue for a few months to continue to run via cheyenne and sherman hill?   with an amtrak bus serving the rgz stations?

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 10, 2014 6:23 AM

and rc, if you  answer any of the above additional or repeated questions, you get to ask the next one

and the 3rd train leaving chicago may not be in the august 1970 guide but should be in may and june

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, October 10, 2014 3:46 PM

daveklepper
the 3rd train leaving chicago may not be in the august 1970 guide but should be in may and june

Trains 5 and 6, to Quincy, split off at Galesburg.  11 and 12 had been the Nebraska Zephyr.

The RGZ's extension to Ogden was replaced by Limousine service during 1971, a service in turn replaced in 1977 by Amtrak's Pioneer from Salt Lake City to Portland.

The Thistle slide in 1983 came after Amtrak and D&RGW had agreed to the handover.  The last WB RGZ before the slide on April 15 ended through service until the Amtrak CZ came east on July 16. (The RGZ may have run between the tunnel opening and July 16.  I can't find anything that says it did.)

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Posted by NP Eddie on Saturday, October 11, 2014 12:51 PM

Rob, Dave, and All:

What was the longest sleeping car line operated and what was the shortest sleeping car line operated?

Was there ever a sleeping car line between Louisville and Nashville?

When I worked afternoons at old Northtown I saw the NCL and WPG Limited. The overnight shift saw the NCL and WPG Limited coming east. 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, October 11, 2014 12:56 PM

the limousine service did continue until the amtrak reroute was in effect.  but toward the end arriving on sp at ogden, as i did, one had to contact the sp agent when he came on duty, and he would arrange the cab to pick one or more, because often there were no passengers and the cab did not run.   i presume this was true in reverse.   the one time i was ticketed through westbound, at the last minute a arrangement was made with potential clients for my firm who wished to meet me, to pick me up at provo, their location, and drive me to ogden, so we could discuss their concerns without my making a special trip to see them   so i never experienced the van-service westbound, only eastbound.   after the thistle mudslide, the rgz was cut back to grand junction, with a bus substituting between gj and slc.  on the official switchover to amtrak daily service, the cz still ran via cheyenne, and an amtrak bus handled the rgz stops runnng as a bus all the way denver - ogden, until the thistle tunnel was opened and the cz finally rerouted to the moffat-line.  then of course the pioneer did run through ogden to seattle while the cz itself may have run directly west from slc.  you can check on this and ask the next question

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, October 11, 2014 1:49 PM

Ed, the L&N did operate overnight setout sleepers between Louisville and Nashville.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Saturday, October 11, 2014 8:00 PM

Johnny:

I read an 1936 OG that stated that the Louisville-Nashville sleeper was pre-cooled. What did that entail?

Through sleepers had A/C, but local ones were not converted yet.

"Steam, Steel, and Limiteds" makes reference to pre-cooler sleepers, stating that once the train got moving, the car would finally be cool.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, October 11, 2014 9:07 PM

Ed, I do not know the mechanics of pre-cooling, but it may have been blowing air across ice and into the sleeper. I do not recall reading about pre-cooling in Steam, Steel and Limiteds; it seems to me that once the setout sleeper was picked up there was no way to keep the interior cool except for the motion of the car. I have the impression that these cars had no air conditioning mechanism, and relied entirely upon the pre-cooling.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 12, 2014 2:33 AM

by 1936, all pullman 1st class sleepers, not including tourist class sleepers that i believe operated on the up and possibly several other western railroads, had ice air-conditioning, with ice containers under the car and the air for the ventilation system directed across the ice for cooling.   the lower berth and upper birth had individual air outlets, black, with an adjustable flap that allowed the passenger to control the amount of cooling by controlling the air quantity.   many railroads had equipped dining cars with the same type of cooling, and a few railroads, like the chessie and b-and-o had coaches with this type of cooling.   by pre-cooled, i presume that the air-intake for the cooling system of the car was connected to an ice air-cooling plant or the sleeping car battery was connected to a charger allowing the fan to operate to cool the car via its ice without running down the battery, either would have worked.

some contenders for shortest sleeper runs might include indianapolis - louisville on the interstate interurban then the indiana rr, providence - ny on the new haven, and did not the nyc in the 1920 decade have a ny - albany sleeper?

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, October 12, 2014 6:56 AM

How about St. Louis to Peoria on the Illinois Terminal?

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Posted by NP Eddie on Sunday, October 12, 2014 1:55 PM

Johnny:

"Steam, Steel, and Limited's", page 16, has a paragraph regarding pre-cooling sleeping cars. A machine was moved from car to car and cooled the car via a canvas that blew cool air through an open window. Once the train was in motion the passengers "were on their own".

The reference to regular A/C verses precooled cars is in a 1936 OG--under the L&N listing. The L&N is the only one I recall as having that distinction in consist description.

Ed Burns

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 13, 2014 8:12 AM

this kind of precooling need not have ruled out regular ice air-conditioning once the train is in motion and the battery can be charged by the axle generators.   but i suspect precooling was available long before ice air-conditioning.

ice air-conditioning was strictly a heavyweight car technology.   once lightweights began being constructed, some type of mechanical air-conditioning was employed and many ice pullmans were converted to mechanical later.   santa fe converted their few ice heavyweight coaches to mechanical steam-ejector and applied steam-ejector to all heavyweights in transcontinental service.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Friday, October 24, 2014 9:44 PM

NP Eddie

Rob, Dave, and All:

What was the longest sleeping car line operated and what was the shortest sleeping car line operated?

Was there ever a sleeping car line between Louisville and Nashville?

Ed Burns

What is the status of this question?  Its been two weeks since the last response.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, October 24, 2014 10:52 PM
As well as I can tell, the longest route in this country was New York-Los Angeles, over the NYC and the Overland Route: 3253 miles over three nights. If there was a Crescent/Sunset through sleeper, it was longer, at 3362 miles, over four nights. The route that used Southern all the way Washington-New Orleans does not count, since it was not inaugurated until the late sixties. the most interesting route was West Yellowstone-Jacksonville, which ran in the summer of 1925, at 2647 miles--UP to Kansas City, Wabash to St. Louis, L&N to Nashville, NC&SL to Atlanta, CG to Albany, and ACL to Jacksonville. Night Trains mentions a Greensboro-Raleigh car, which would have been an 81 mile trip.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, October 25, 2014 1:53 PM

In the early days of Amtrak, not right at the beginning, but during the time that the Sourthern still operated the Southern Crescent, and before the Superliner era, there was a NY - LA through sleeper via the NEC (Amtrak), Southern, and SP (Amtrak).   Not quite 50 years ago, however.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:57 AM

Johnny or Dave:

I can't find my original post about post WWII transcontinental sleepers, so I will ask when was that service discontinued. I suspect it was about 1960 or so.

Ed Burns

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, October 27, 2014 8:11 PM
Ed, the April, 1958 issue of the Guide shows NYC-LA service via the Century and the Super Chief, which was the last coast-to-coast service--the May issue shows that it had been discontinued. There was still NYC/Washington-Texas service, but it did not last much longer. I would have to search through my public timetables to see when this was finally discontinued, as my next issue of the Guide is September, 1962. XXX (new paragraph) In the mid to late sixties, NYC-NO-LA service was inaugurated via PRR-SOU-SP, and, for a time in the Amtrak era it was Boston-LA. This came to an end when the Sunset was re-equipped with Superliner cars. In 1971, I rode Houston to Tuscaloosa in an SP sleeper, and, in 1980, I rode New Orleans to Los Angeles in a Southern sleeper.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:05 AM

Was not there a break in the servuce vis New Orleans at the time of Amtrak startup or just before until it was reinstated?

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Posted by NP Eddie on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 9:50 AM

Johnny:

Thanks for the information as I thought it continued to about 1960 or so.

Ed Burns

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:55 AM
daveklepper

Was not there a break in the servuce vis New Orleans at the time of Amtrak startup or just before until it was reinstated?

Dave, you forced me to stop relying on my memory, and bring my box of NS and predecessors public and employee timetables out. The NY-LA service via Southern began in 1970, not in the sixties; the November 20, 1970, TT proclaims "NEW YORK-LOS ANGELES VIA SLEEPER, WITH AN OVERNIGHT STOP IN EXOTIC NEW ORLEANS," and goes on to describe the service. The June 1, 1971, and later TT's show the service, so I do not think there was a gap. The November 14, 1971, TT shows that it had been extended to Boston (which, I believe, was the first time that such through service was offered). The service from/to Boston lasted, however only about a year, for the November 1, 1972, Southern TT shows NY-LA again.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:13 AM

The PRR-SOU-SP service was started in 1970 at the same time the Sunset was reduced to tri-weekly, as was the Southern Crescent south of Atlanta.  This was part of the same group of ICC decisions that ended WP's participation in the California Zephyr and allowed SP to cut the City of SF to tri-weekly.  It continued until just before the Sunset was re-equipped with Superliners, ending when the Crescent was converted to HEP at the time of the Amtrak takeover.  At least one set of the Crescent's cars were provided by Amtrak for a couple of months before the takeover after a horrible derailment in late 1978 or early 1979.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 10:05 AM

Rob:

The "Crescent" derailment happened on December 3, 1978. One of the employees killed was a chef that was pictured in a Southern ad. That ad said that he had been making muffins since 1943 or so.

The "National Transportation Library" website has a plethora of information, including ICC investigated railroad accidents from 1911 to 1993. I assume that the NTSB began in 1994.

Ed Burns

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