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Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, August 14, 2014 2:29 AM

New Orleans - Norfolk area, wherever the final connecting road ended.   It could have ended up on  the Southern, SAL, or N&W and each had a different location.

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, August 14, 2014 10:27 AM

No, the only interline sleeper under discussion was the New Orleans to Washington car.

The un-named sleeper ran, in part, on the Montgomery-Mobile train, but it did not go to or from Mobile, and it ran only on the L&N.

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Posted by KCSfan on Thursday, August 14, 2014 3:48 PM

Johnny this answer is valid only if you are considering the L&N from Flomaton to River Jct. as being a branch line. In 1946 there were two sleepers (cars 67 & 68) that ran from Birmingham to Pensacola. Northbound only one of the two (car 68) ran from Pensacola to Birmingham - car 67 did not run northbound.

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, August 14, 2014 4:52 PM

I did not know that the line from Flomaton to River Junction (Chattahoochee) was considered a main line.

Since you have named the Birmingham-Pensacola sleeper, the Washington-Atlanta-New Orleans Express, and that the interline car went to Washington, you have answered more than either Dave or Rob, who gave us Montgomery as the interline exchange point, the WRA, and the Birmingham-Mobile car.

At the time in question, there was only one car from Birmingham to Pensacola. I have wondered about the existence of #35 and #36 (Montgomery-Mobile) about the same time of day as The Pan-American; perhaps the Pan had a slew of headend cars, and needed help over that stretch? Also, why was the Azalean all-coach (for passengers) to Nashville when going north, and #26 carried the sleepers? The same reason? (Incidentally, the Southern representation in that date (October, 1944) shows that the New Orleans to Washington car was handled in L&N #26 from New Orleans to Montgomery.

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Posted by KCSfan on Thursday, August 14, 2014 5:15 PM

Deggesty

I did not know that the line from Flomaton to River Junction (Chattahoochee) was considered a main line.

Johnny, even though it was un-signaled I always thought of it as a secondary mainline since it hosted the Gulf Wind and another Jax - NO through train. For some questions I don't even know where to begin to look for an answer but of all those I take a crack at your most recent question has to rank as the most challenging.

As far as I know there were only two cars configured as described in the OG's as "Restaurant-Coach-6 Sec." Name the railroad, the train and the route on which these cars ran.

Mark 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, August 15, 2014 7:21 AM

Without access to OG's and not doing much research, I seem to remember that the UP operated such cars on an overnight branchline mixed train, perhaps the Heber Creeper, Ogden - Heber?

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Posted by KCSfan on Friday, August 15, 2014 8:17 AM

Sorry Dave that's not the one.

Mark

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Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, August 16, 2014 11:02 AM

Shortly before the discontinuance of the trains that included these unique cars the railroad on which they ran was fully absorbed into a larger road that had been its owner for many years.

Mark.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 18, 2014 4:55 AM

Pierre Marquett (to C&O)?

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 18, 2014 4:57 AM

Or how about these being narrow gauge cars, owned by by the Denver South Park and Pacific merged into the Colorado and Southern, all of course part of the Q's system.

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Posted by KCSfan on Monday, August 18, 2014 8:47 AM

Dave, these were not Pere Marquette or narrow gauge cars.

Mark

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Posted by wanswheel on Monday, August 18, 2014 9:00 PM

Excerpt from a 1947 Trains article.

The Planter is still railroading in the old tradition between Memphis and New Orleans. It runs on that part of the Illinois Central which once had the romantic name of "Yazoo & Mississippi Valley Railroad." Although this is an overnight run, parts of the trip each way are in daylight. A most unusual car is on the rear of the Planter — a restaurant-coach-sleeper-observation. Apparently the two cars used in this service are made-over business cars. In any event, they belong to a bygone age. The ancient scrollwork on the observation grill is quite different from the vertical lines found on younger cars. These unusual cars are appropriately named Cottonland and Riceland.  

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Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:43 AM

Good find Wans! You've named the train and the railroad. It ran on the Y&MV between Memphis and New Orleans via Vicksburg and Baton Rouge on a very leisurely schedule. Southbound it left Memphis at 4:45pm and arrived in New Orleans at 9:45am next morning. The 17 hours it took to cover the 458 mile route gave it an average speed of only 26.9 mph.

Mark

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, August 19, 2014 4:32 PM

Mark, the Planter had been faster once.

Article in the Hattiesburg American (1930)

CHICAGO, March 17.—Distinctive names for four of the fine passenger trains which go to make the Illinois Central System known as "the road of travel luxury" are announced by President L. A. Downs. They are The Creole, The Louisiane, The Planter and The Iowan.  The Creole is the name given to trains No. 1 and 2 between Chicago and New Orleans and to their connections to and from Louisville and St. Louis. The Creole on its southward trip leaves Chicago at 8:50 a.m., Louisville at 12:01 p.m., and St. Louis at 1 p.m., arriving at New Orleans at 9:45 the following morning. On its northward trip The Creole leaves New Orleans at 8:40 p.m. and arrives at St. Louis at 4 p.m., at Louisville at 5:15 p. m. and at Chicago at 9:10 p. m. of the following day.  The Louisiane is the name given to trains Nos. 3 and 4, which are companions of The Creole. The Louisiane on its southward trip leaves Chicago at 6:15 p.m., Louisville at 10 p.m., and St. Louis at 10:02 p.m., arriving at New Orleans the following evening at 7:50. On the northward trip The Louisiane leaves New Orleans at 8:30 a. m., and arrives at St. Louis at 6:50 a.m., at Louisville at 7:30 a.m., and at Chicago at 9:20 a.m. next dayThe Planter is the name given to trains Nos. 12 and 15 between Memphis and New Orleans over the Yazoo & Mississippi Valley Railroad. The Planter southbound leaves Memphis at 5 p.m., arriving at New Orleans at 7:30 the next morning, and northbound leaves New Orleans at 3:45 p.m., arriving at Memphis at 6:55 the next morning.  The Iowan is the name given to trains Nos. 15 and 16 and their connections between Chicago and Omaha, Sioux City and Sioux Fails. The Iowan west bound leaves Chicago at 12:30 a.m., arriving at Omaha at 4:01 p.m., at Sioux City at 4:50 p.m. and at Sioux Falls at 6:30 p.m. Eastbound The Iowan leaves Sioux Falls at 5:30 a.m., Sioux City at 7 a.m. and Omaha at 7:03 a.m., arriving at Chicago at 9:40 p.m.  These four named trains supplement a fleet of named trains which the Illinois Central System has operated for many years including The Floridan and The Seminole to and from the Florida resorts, The Panama Limited between Chicago and New Orleans with connections to and from St. Louis, Louisville, Hot Springs, Shreveport, Gulfport and Mobile, The Chickasaw between St. Louis and Memphis, The Daylight and The Diamond between Chicago and St. Louis and The Hawkeye between Chicago and the West.  Christening ceremonies are being arranged to mark the inauguration of the trains under their new names.

Where was the powerhouse for the Cross-Island Trolley?

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Posted by KCSfan on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 10:03 AM

Long Island City I think.

Mark

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:34 AM

Huntington or Farmingdale - points where the line crossed the LIRR. The line also crossed the LIRR at Amityville, but the voltage drop would have been unworkable at the other end.

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:34 AM

Yes, Mark, as you know, PRR owned LIRR, which owned the Cross-Island Trolley.

Trolley and LIRR at Huntington Station, about 4 miles south of Huntington.

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Posted by KCSfan on Thursday, August 21, 2014 4:38 PM

I'm not sure if Long Island City, Huntington or Farmingdale is the right answer; or even if any of these is right. Please clarify.

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, August 21, 2014 10:57 PM

Long Island City is the right answer. There were substations at Huntington Station and Farmingdale.

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Posted by KCSfan on Friday, August 22, 2014 11:09 AM

wanswheel

Long Island City is the right answer. There were substations at Huntington Station and Farmingdale.

Thanks for the clarification. On to a new question -

Prior to Amtrak, what was the last order for long distance passenger train cars by a US railroad? Name the builder, the number and type of cars, the railroad that ordered them and the year delivered.

Mark

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, August 22, 2014 12:53 PM

Kansas City Southern 1967 Pullman Standard 10 coaches (270-279).  If I remember correctly these cars were ordered before, and delivered after, UP's St Louis Car order.

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Posted by KCSfan on Friday, August 22, 2014 3:45 PM

rcdrye

Kansas City Southern 1967 Pullman Standard 10 coaches (270-279).  If I remember correctly these cars were ordered before, and delivered after, UP's St Louis Car order.

Right on, Rob. The next question is yours.

Mark

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, August 22, 2014 4:41 PM

In 1962, Northern Pacific rebuilt six baggage cars to deal with an operational problem between St. Paul and Seattle on the North Coast Limited.  UP had a similar problem on the combined "City of San Francisco/City of Los Angeles between Ogden and Milwaukee, a problem also solved by rebuilding baggage cars in 1962.  Describe the different approaches taken by NP and UP, and describe the problem they were solving.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Friday, August 22, 2014 7:57 PM

Rob:

Wayner's "Car Numbers, Names, and Consists" provides the answer.

Between 1962 and 1967, the NP rebuilt six 200 series baggage cars into "Water Baggage Cars" in new series 406-411. I suspect they replaced retired cars. Kuebler's book on the NCL has a picture of the inside on those cars. The two water tanks fed water into the passenger F's to provide extra water for steam generating.

The Union Pacific placed steam generating equipment into five baggage cars and renumbered them to 300-304 to provide steam to the rearmost cars.  Did these cars go between Chicago to Ogden as the trains were switched at Ogden?

Ed Burns

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, August 23, 2014 6:31 AM

Ed has it in one!.  NP's F9's had large enough boilers for adequate train heating, but were short on water capacity, getting dynamic brakes in place of the 400 gallon tank under the front roof hatch.  Rather than skimp on steam between fill stops NP built the water baggage cars.  I don't think they replaced earlier water-carrying cars, but they may have replaced steam generator cars used during the winter.  GN used SG cars, some of which survived into BN ownership and Amtrak service.

UP's problem was a little different.  Combining the City of LA and City of SF often resulted in a train longer than 20 cars, leaving little steam for the rear of the train even with multiple-boilered E units.  There was no need for them west of Ogden as the trains were only 10 or 11 cars, so they were only used between Ogden and Chicago.  In the late 1960s UP also combined in the City of Portland and City of Denver, resulting in trains that neared 30 cars.

Amtrak rebuilt several E8 and E9 units into steam generator cars between 1974 and 1976 after the SDP40Fs were pulled in favor of F40PHs, and before the conversion of all trains to HEP.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Saturday, August 23, 2014 9:28 AM

Rob and All:

I have found that Wayner's "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists" answers many questions. What a great book!

My question is about the Great Northern. They ordered passenger F's for main line service without dynamic brakes. It was stated that the GN had a lot of flat land railroad and thus did not need DB's. This seems strange seeing that they crossed two mountain ranges.

Can anyone add to this?

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, August 23, 2014 3:51 PM

1.   They may have felt that for passenger service, air brakes were sufficient, and dynamic brakes of the time could result in rougher train handling.     2.  Or possibly the electrification was still in use at the time the Passenger F's were ordered and the decision to abandon it had not been reached.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, August 25, 2014 6:30 AM

The answer is really simpler than that.  GN needed the space usually occupied by the DB package for steam generator water (600 Gallons) in the hatch tank.  EMD designed the FP7 to deal with the need for water space, but GN elected not to get it.  Without the hatch tank the F7 only held  about 400 gallons in the split fuel tank, leaving 800 Gallons for fuel. With the hatch tank GN could use all 1200 gallons of the fuel tank for fuel. Some western carriers just left the SGs out of their "A" passenger F Units, relying on the 800 or so gallons of water space in the "cab" end of the "B" units, which had steam generators installed (D&RGW, WP had examples).  D&RGW rebuilt a PB1 shell as a steam generator car for the Rio Grande Zephyr in the 1980s.

 

SP had five boiler-equipped F7s, and 14 FP7s.  The F7's didn't last long in the passenger pool, since they had neither water nor fuel capacity.  An FP7 with dynamic brakes carried 1200 gallons of fuel and 1150 gallons of water in two tanks. The FP7s remained in SP and Amtrak service until 1979.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, August 25, 2014 5:00 PM

Rob and All:

The mention of 1200 gallon fuel tanks in the F's brought a memory back from my days as Roadmaster's Clerk from 1986 to 1990. Tim Godsil was the Assistant Terminal Supt and had just come from Diesel Control in Fort Worth. He made a comment that the BN 1 and BN 2 needed to be fueled frequently due to their 1200 gallon fuel tanks, thus they were not good locomotives for executive trains.

Looking back from an NP point of view, the NP passenger F-s were fully fueled at St. Paul and topped off about every 300-400 miles, with locomotive consist changed at Livingston. Kuebler's book on the NCL has all the fuel and water stops for that train.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, August 26, 2014 6:20 AM

So NP's units could get by on the small fuel tanks.  On the other hand NP needed water capacity - hence the water baggage cars.  GN seems to have dealt with the problem by running 4 unit sets in the winter, so each SG could run a little easier.

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