I believe the normal practice for B&A passenger power arriving at Alvany was to go to West Albany's facilities, which were older than Selkirk, much closer to the in-city passenger station, and I believe lasted until the end of steam in the area. I'm not sure there was any attempt to run any steam in any B&A service round-trip without refuling, except Boston-area suburban servicen where it was normal.
But I suspect the 12-wheel tenders could have done that job.
Interesting that Mohawk fuel consumption was little greater than Hudson consumption over the run. Turntable length wasn't something I thought of, precisely because of Berkshires... until I realized that tables in passenger-oriented facilities like South Station might be shorter than those for mainline heavy freight.
Was there sufficient fuel in a 12-wheel tender to take a J2 back across the Berkshires without having to go to Selkirk or wherever to recoal?
The few Mowhaks that had the small tenders had them to handle Bston - Albany passenger trains of heavyweight equipment too heavy for the Hudsons without double heading (usually a Pacific and a Hudson) and fit the turntables easily (comparitive length of the Mowhawks and Berkshires of interest). The small tenders for the J2s were upon the idea that they were adequate for Boston - Albany without refieling and hauling unnecessary coal uphill costs money.
I was also told that the reason some J2s got larger tenders was for use west of Albany. Yet I did not experience a through ride without an Albany engine change until the diesel era. I did ride behind the Boston Mowhawks, but I cannot remember what the tender lettering was. And they did not go west of Albany. Wqs this possibly a quick fix until turntables or their operation was modified and the Mowhawks restored to their proper tenders?
Also, I enderstand that some J2s did have small tenders with New York Central lettering initially. I think Beacon Park Yard Roundhouse maintenance people must have taken care of that pretty quickly.
Look forward to your comments and the next question.
daveklepperTenders for as-delivered 600s: Were there only eight 600-607?) compared with J1s 5201 and up as delivered?
The references I have are a bit unclear; they seem to indicate 12-wheelers were indeed used in'later years' on the B&A, but only after the era of green special paint. There are pictures of 316K tenders, behind J2s, lettered only "Boston and Albany".
Likewise, to my knowledge all the NYC production locomotives had Baker gear. Whether there were detail differences between 75" and 79" engines I do not know, but I would suspect that the valve travel and other events would be tied to the stroke, which I think was the same.
This is the first I've heard of Mohawks given smaller tenders. Presumably these were the very early versions, with higher augment, and the smaller tenders were to let them go someplace where the reduced length and weight were advantages, but the loss of fuel bunkerage was less important. Here specific references from you would be invaluable. My lagging in purchasing 'Know thy Mohawks' emerges to savage my tail... o
You obviously have the answer, but your highlighting the exceptioms leaves somre cofusion, which you can clear-up easily:
Tenders for as-delivered 600s Werer there only eight 600-607?) compared with J1s 5201 and up as delivered?
As far as Iremember, the 600s kept their original tenders while on the B&A.
And during WWII, a few Mowhaks lost their tenders, replaced with ones similar to those delivered with the 600s for their use on the B&A.
There are so many.
Alco vs Lima construction (for half of them anyway ... with sagging cab...
Black vs. green paint, at least early on. I almost forgot the B&A white face...
Tender was different ALTHOUGH I believe 5200 was built and initially tested with an eight-wheel tender. Later at least some J2s would get Hudson 12-wheel tenders, I think as Hudsons got PT centipedes... No 'New York Central' lettering on proud Bostonian tenders...
Lower drivers on the B&A engines. Also Coffin FWH and that Big. Square. sand dome. B&A engines built with 240psi boiler pressure, but I believe reduced to parity with 5200 (225psi) later.
No room for booster exhaust ahead of the stack on 5200, but the 600s had it there.
Trick question: 5200 had Walschaerts valve gear; all the 600s as I recall were Baker like the rest of the J1s.
All known differences between the 5200 and up New Yoyk Central System Hudsns and the 600s operated on the Boston and Albany, please.
Rutland it is. William Seward Webb was a doctor who married ElizaVanderbilt. Tagged by his father-in-law William H. Vanderbilt to run the Wagner Palace Car Company (after Webster Wagner was killed in one of his own cars), Webb tried to use the presidency of the Rutland as a springboard to becoming Governor of Vermont (not so farfetched an idea as at least two Vermont Central presidents became Governor in the 19th century). New York Central invested a fair amount in the Rutland, and Rutland steam locomotives mirrored NYC designs through the 1920s. The Webb's farm on Shelburne Point was one of several model farms in Vermont in the period. Webb's daughter-in-law Electra Havemayer Webb founded the Shelburne Museum along the Rutland south of Burlington, an institution still with us today.
Vermont Governors J. Gregory Smith(1863-1865) and Edward C. Smith (1898-1900) were father and son, president of the Vermont Central and Central Vermont, respectively.
Vermont, Rutland, and New York Central
If it will help unstick things...
This railroad was acquired by its parent because one of the principle stockholders (by marriage) was trying to become the governor of the railroad's small home state, The parent cast it off after the Panama Canal Act required the railroad to disband its shipping company.
For a freebie, he never did get to be governor, but his wife's influence is still felt in the small state...
Sorry, RC had the complete answer, and I hope he can pose a good question soon.
It's not my question! I didn't answer a thing relevant to it! I'm still not quite sure where half of the stuff discussed is located!
The correct answer was NOT the Congress Street expressway line, as the argument was made that the original Hollywood Freeway Cahuenga Pass line wasn't really 'transit' at the scale a freeway median line would be expected to be conducted. The trolley line was pre-existing over Cahuenga Pass past the Hollywood Bowl, and was no more 'put in the median by design' than the residual Lackawanna track around Garret Mountain would have been retained in the Rt. 80 construction as a high-speed railroad line.
Overmod, waiting for your question
RC asked the question:
The yard and station at Logan Square were removed at the time the subway ramp went into service. The small shop there was mostly replaced by an expanded shop at Desplaines Ave. on the Congress line. There was a cramped inspection shop in the tiny yard at Jefferson Park in the Kennedy median.
So... This very busy switching railroad, part of a much larger system, owned two segments of rapid transit line, including one on el structure, but never used them for its own purposes. It would have had a hard time doing so, since it didn't own the stations, any cars, power connections or even the third rail. Name the railroad under any of its names, along with the rapid transit lines.
And, Overmod, you answered it completely, after I gave only a partial answer.
Tisn't my question; I think it's up to CSSHEGEWISCH. I certainly didn't answer the active question about Chicago River & Indiana!
I thought I had. Overmod?
RC, pssibly Overmd is waiting for you to ask him to ask the next question?
thanks
What's left of the CR&I is an NS industrial track. Not much in the former stock yards, cut back on the east end. What little there is is part of Illinois' high speed rail plan as a way to get from Union Station to Metra's Rock Island District.
'thanks and my question concerning Chicago & Indiana's independence?
And your new question?
The ramp at Congress and Paulina is still in place and probably serves the same function as the Paulina connector did in the past, it serves to provide a connection between the Blue Line and the rest of the system.
Although the structure Lake - Milwaukee on Paulinara was not removerd until 1968, the tracks were out-of-service from 1954?
And the status ot ramp in the Congress median east of Paulina connecting Congress and Douglass?
And is Chicago and Indiana Railway independent or owned by CSX or NS or both?
The section on Paulina north of Lake Street was removed in 1968, except for the truss bridge over the C&NW and Milwaukee, still in use by Metra as a signal bridge. The remainder of the Paulina Connector was reduced to single track connections at each end sometime in the 1980s. The complete rebuild for today's Pink Line uses the same ramp location used by Douglas Park trains from 1954 to 1958 (the through Logan Square route was a little west of the ramp, since it crossed over Lake Street at the sight of the former Lake Street Transfer station.
The Union Stock Yards & Terminal became the Chicago River and Indiana Railroad. The rapid transit lines were built by CR&I through a subsidiary (Chicago River & Indiana Railway). The corporate history of the company is pretty fascinating.
Happy to read CSS's questiom. Also:
The switching railroad was the Chicago Junction/Chicago River & Indiana, owned by New York Central. The rapid transit lines sharing the right-of-way were the Stockyards and Kenwood branches of South Side Rapid Transit/Chicago Rapid Transit/Chicago Transit Authority. Both branches connected with the main line at the Indiana Avenue station.
Chicago and Stock Yards was the name of the Switching Railroad, the Chicago Rapd Trsnsit and then CTA the operators, the Stock Yards and Kenwood branches, connecting with the Southside Elevated.
And this railroad never operated its own equipment on the rapid transit lines. Both rapid transit lines are gone, and the switching railroad's tracks are far less active than they used to be.
From Wik:
"In June 1922, the South Brooklyn Railway bought much of the LIRR-owned Prospect Park & Coney Island Railroad. By 1923, the Prospect Park & Coney Island Railroad and the New York & Coney Island Railroad were merged into the South Brooklyn Railway. The BRT filed bankruptcy that year and was reorganized into the Brooklyn–Manhattan Transit Corporation, which still operated the South Brooklyn Railway."
This would include the Franklin Shuttle. But South Brooklyn trains never used the Brighton line after owning the line, only before to deliver material for its construction.
Sea Beach (N) had three wire-equipped freight sidings on the north side of the 4-track cut. West End (D) was used only occasionlly south of 9th Avenue since mosr movements were via the street Gravesend Avenue, then Mcdonald Avemue tracks. The tracks used by the D between 9th Avenue and the portal at 5th Avenue for the connection to the 4th Avenue subway were used daily and are still used. Much earlier this had South Brooklyn ownership. And movements via the D New Utrecht Ave. West End elevated have now replaced movements movements via the paved-over tracks on McDonald Ave. (formerly Gravesend Ave). Sporadic movements by South Brooklyn on the Culver (F) elevated structure did occur, but were and are restricted to south of Avenue X after the 1949 changes at Ditmas Avenue, breaking the simple connection to 9th Avenue.
South Brooklyn was not part of a larger railroad system. This is not in New York. Also SBK owned the things that this railroad did not own.
The switching railroad was heavily associated with one particular line of business, and was at one time owned by the property it served.
Obvioiusly South Broolklyn, which at one time did actually own parts of all four of the rapid transit routes running into Coney Island. The only one of the four that it never did use for any purpose was the Brighton line, which includes the elevated structure from Sheepshead Bay to Stillwell Avenue upper level Coney Island, the embankment, Avenue H - Sheepshead Bay, and the cut with overpasses so wide and including stations at one or more locations to be called tunnels, Avenue H - Prospect Park. Possibly the current Franklin Shuttle, which at one time was the main route of Brighton via Fulton El., Brooklyn Br.
I'll be more specific with a second posting if I have the opportunity.
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