I'll make a WAG just go get the ball started. I think I read somewhere that Milwaukee Road's Hiawatha averaged around 65 mph all the way from Chicago to Mpls-St. Paul. Perhaps some intermediate strech averaged out a lot higher, like CUS to Sturtevant, or Delaplain(sp?) to LaCrosse? Since I don't know the stretch I won't guess the speed. (And I guess a lot of us have heard of the legendary "Slow to 90" sign.) Motive power was streamlined Hudsons but other classes too -- streamlined Pacifics?
My second guess would be the IC steam-hauled trains from Central Station in Chicago (which no longer exists and is covered in condos) down to Champaign-Urbana. The advantage here might be that the Illinois Central actually terminated some runs in Champaign, while others went farther south to Carbondale and of course, a few all the way to New Orleans.
(I don't know if this is significant because the term "station to station" confuses me a bit -- I'm guessing it means one depot to another but not necessarily an entire scheduled run, railhead to terminal.) But I'm guessing the home stretch on flat-out prairie had a good average. So Central Station/Chgo to Champaign or perhaps Homewood to Champaign probably had a very healthy average.
I'm just assuming the top speed doesn't apply to PRR varnish hauled by GG-1's. Too many stops and not the first-rate straight-line prairie tracks parts of the Midwest used to have. The G's could probably have cruised at 90 if not for the above conditions, but I doubt they could hit a hundred mph hauling much of anything, nor were they designed to.. - al
daveklepperAgain, top speed pre-WWII please?
Here is Dave's question, which apparently has been forgotten with the further discussion of the Boston-Florida throguh cars.
NEW QUESTION: Before US entry into WWII in 7 December 1941, what was the fastest regularly scheduled station-to-station train in the USA, the locaton of this speed run, and of course the railroad, the train, and the power and consist used
Johnny
daveklepperI suspect that the reason the New Haven public schedules don't show the northbound cars is that the instructions were simply to switch them to the first convenient available through Boston train at Washington. If timing permitted putting the northbound car on an earlier train, this was done.
It's possible that if the Orange Blossom Special arrived in Washington earlier than 9:45, the PRR may have put the Boston car on the Colonial, which left at 10:00, instead of waiting until noon for the Senator. The train did run non-stop from Richmond, and was given 2:45 (the best time shown from the Main Street station; 116.5 miles to Washington) from arrival in Richmond to arrival in Washington (no passengers taken in Richmond). I do not know how long it would have taken to cut the car off the rear, move it to the upper level track, add it to the Colonial, couple the engine on, and make the brake test.
As to the Miamian, it was due into Washington at 10:40, so the Senator was the first Boston train possible.
I suspect that the reason the New Haven public schedules don't show the northbound cars is that the instructions were simply to switch them to the first convenient available through Boston train at Washington. If timing permitted putting the northbound car on an earlier train, this was done.
Again, top speed pre-WWII please?
daveklepper In addition to getting an answer to my question regarding top speed, I would like to know which New Haven (and possiblyi PRR) train these cars used. In 1950. I assume the switching was done in Washignton, not New York. Is this correct?
In addition to getting an answer to my question regarding top speed, I would like to know which New Haven (and possiblyi PRR) train these cars used. In 1950. I assume the switching was done in Washignton, not New York. Is this correct?
The ACL and SAL condensed schedules indicate that the cars were switched in Washington and not New York. Southbound, the Orange Blossom Special Boston car was scheduled to be in Washington 50 minutes; the New York cars were scheduled to be there 20 minutes. Northbound, the New York cars were scheduled to be there 20 minutes, and the Boston car was scheduled to be there 2 hours and fifteen minutes.
The Miamian cars were given 20 minutes to be switched in Washington southbound (the New York cars were gvien 30 minutes there), and northbound they were given 1 hour and 20 minutes (the New York cars were scheduled to leave 25 minutes after arrival).
daveklepperAntonito was the junction for the "Chili Line" which went straight south to Sante Fe, N.M., called that because of the high proportion of Mexican populaton and the growth and use of chili. I think that was abandoned about 1940. Its passenger service probably stopped earlier, with its cars dropped from the the San Juan at Antonito. Until some time after the San Juan was discontinued, there was a connecting standard gauge overnight train, with sleeper at least until after WWII, from Denver to both Raton and Alamosa, splitting at Pueblo, called the Colorado and New Mexico Express.
Dave.
My 1937 OG makes no mention of the San Juan. It shows the Colorado and New Mexico Express as actually being three trains, No's 15, 115 & 315 (WB). No.15 was a standard gauge train running between Denver and Grand Junction which, in addition to coaches, carried a Denver-Alamosa sleeper, a Denver-Salida sleeper and a Denver-Glenwood Springs sleeper. No.315 was the narrow gauge section of the CO & NM Exp that ran between Salida and Gunnison via Marshall Pass which carried coaches and a parlor car. No.115 was the other narrow gauge section of the CO & NM Exp that ran between Alamosa and Durango carrying coaches, a parlor car, a dinette coach and the Santa Fe coach(s) between Alamosa and Antonito as you mentioned. The name of No.115, the Alamosa - Durango portion of the CO and NM Exp, was changed to the San Juan apparently sometime between 1937-39. I have seen pictures dated 1939 that identify the train as the San Juan.
IIRC in earlier years No.115 carried cars from Alamosa all the way to Silverton but by 1937 it was cut back to Durango arriving there early in the evening. The only service to Silverton was a mixed train that departed Durango in the morning.
Mark
KCSfanI had in mind the Boston-Miami and Boston-St Pete cars which ran pre-WW2 through 13 states (MA, RI, CT, NY, NJ, PA, DE, MD, VA, NC, SC, GA and FL) plus DC over the NYNH&H, PRR, RF&P, ACL and FEC. The car to Miami was carried in the Miamian and the one to St. Pete in the Gulf Coast Special. My '37 guide also shows the SAL's Orange Blossom Special carrying a Boston-Florida sleeper running through the same 13 states.
narig01 I've a question about the above described train. Was there a flag stop at Cave Springs, GA? One of my sons teachers at Georgia School for the Deaf at Cave Springs told me that there was a train that ran thru Cave Springs that his father used to take to school before they started using buses. Mostly my curiosity. Thx IGN
I've a question about the above described train. Was there a flag stop at Cave Springs, GA? One of my sons teachers at Georgia School for the Deaf at Cave Springs told me that there was a train that ran thru Cave Springs that his father used to take to school before they started using buses.
Mostly my curiosity.
Thx IGN
DeggestyThe June15, 1931, timetable of the Southern Railway System shows a through day train between Rome, Ga., and Meridian, Miss., via Anniston, Selma, Demopolis, and York, Ala. It also shows a Selma to Meridian and back train. The September, 1936 timetable shows only a Rome-Demopolis day train and a mixed train from McDowell (4.9 miles west of Demopolis) and back. What happened to cause the train from Rome to tie up in Demopolis? (I learned of the event in the late sixties, and if my memory were as good as that of the man who told me, I could tell you day it happened.) A look at the area around Demopolis may tell you.
The June15, 1931, timetable of the Southern Railway System shows a through day train between Rome, Ga., and Meridian, Miss., via Anniston, Selma, Demopolis, and York, Ala. It also shows a Selma to Meridian and back train. The September, 1936 timetable shows only a Rome-Demopolis day train and a mixed train from McDowell (4.9 miles west of Demopolis) and back. What happened to cause the train from Rome to tie up in Demopolis? (I learned of the event in the late sixties, and if my memory were as good as that of the man who told me, I could tell you day it happened.) A look at the area around Demopolis may tell you.
Except that Mudhens were generally used on the Silverton and Farmington branches with several leased to the Rio Grande Southern. Nearly all the pictures of the San Juan that have seen have had the more modern 470-series 2-8-2's on the point. There were ten of these, the USA requisitioned all for the White Pass and Yukon, but the D&RGW management manged to convince the War Production Board to let them keep three, the two now at the Durango and Silverton and the one as a museum piece in Durango but restorable, specifically for the San Juan service, two for the train and one standby.
The wye as Antonito was interesting in that one of southern legs (don't remember whether it was the southeast or southwest) had a trainsition midway where one center rail moved to its nearest standard gauge runing rail and a new center rail moved out from the opposite one, with of course something a like a frog at the joints, but with the standard gauge rails continuous of course.
Antonito was the junction for the "Chili Line" which went straight south to Sante Fe, N.M., called that because of the high proportion of Mexican populaton and the growth and use of chili. I think that was abandoned about 1940. Its passenger service probably stopped earlier, with its cars dropped from the the San Juan at Antonito. Until some time after the San Juan was discontinued, there was a connecting standard gauge overnight train, with sleeper at least until after WWII, from Denver to both Raton and Alamosa, splitting at Pueblo, called the Colorado and New Mexico Express. Of course at Pueblo, there once was another narrow gauge name train, name escapes me for a moment, that went west to Ridgeway. Ridgeway was connected at Montrose to Durango by the circuitous Rio Grande Southern, completing the narrow gauge loop. I understand there is one Mudhen 460-series operable at the Durango and Silverton and is occasionally used for switching in Durango. Most trains on the D&S and all the Cumbres and Toltec are pulled by one or another of the 480-series which were freight locomotives. The 490-sereis were similar but rebuilt from older standard-gauge 2-8-0's and my understanding is that several of these have survived but are not currently operable. The Rio Grande Southern used leased Mudhens, its own 2-8-0's and the Galloping Geese.
NEW QUESTION: Before US entry into WWII in 7 December 1941, what was the fastest regularly scheduled station-to-station train in the USA, the locaton of this speed run, and of course the railroad, the train, and the power and consist used.
daveklepper Almosa - Antonito, Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad, the San Juan. Didin't ride the San Juan but rode each way three times in an excursion train to and from Durango. Track now owned by the Rio Grand Scenic Railroad with standard gauge both freight and excursion passenger service, the latter connecting at Antonito with Cumbres and Toltec narrow gauge museum operation. Possibly some day the narrow gauge will also be restored. The line was built originaly by the Denver and Rio Grande railroad, with the change to the D&RGW upon merger of the Rio Grande Western that built the line from Grand Junction to Salt Lake City (and Ogeden?) and was originally partly owned by the Colorado Midland. In D&RGW days some freight trains had both narrow and standard cars in the same consist!
Almosa - Antonito, Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad, the San Juan. Didin't ride the San Juan but rode each way three times in an excursion train to and from Durango. Track now owned by the Rio Grand Scenic Railroad with standard gauge both freight and excursion passenger service, the latter connecting at Antonito with Cumbres and Toltec narrow gauge museum operation. Possibly some day the narrow gauge will also be restored. The line was built originaly by the Denver and Rio Grande railroad, with the change to the D&RGW upon merger of the Rio Grande Western that built the line from Grand Junction to Salt Lake City (and Ogeden?) and was originally partly owned by the Colorado Midland.
In D&RGW days some freight trains had both narrow and standard cars in the same consist!
Absolutely correct Dave, so light up your stogie and shoot us another question. In 2001 at about this time of year I drove down the highway that parallels the railroad from Alamosa to Antonito. While the narrow gauge 3rd rail was gone, you could easily see the spike holes and impressions of the tie plates that once held it. In Antonito I stood near the C&TS yards at the point the highway crosses the railroad and gazed West down the track to where the narrow guage rails faded into the distance. I stood by a sign that proclaimed "End of Standard Gauge" and was filled with nostalgia just thinking of what an awesome sight it must have been to see the San Juan with its 5 or 6 cars rocking down that track at its top speed of 30mph behind a 2-8-2 Mudhen.
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While normally confined to yards at places where narrow and standard gauge lines met, there were a few longer, "open road" stretches of dual gauge, 3-rail track. What was the last such stretch of dual gauge to be operated in the US? Name the railroad(s) that operated over this remnant of dual gauge, the points between which it ran, and the last named passenger train to run over the line.
Mark, you have it. I do not remember which it was for certain, but I was told that a riverboat or a tow hit the bridge and damaged it beyond repair. Having the line from Marion Jct. to Akron, the Southern did not need to rebuild the bridge to carry traffic from either Selma or Demopolis to York (this line is now gone). The severed line remained in service west of McDowell for many years, and was then cut back carry interchange with the Sumter and Choctaw at Lilita (LieLEEtah), which ran between Lilita and Choctaw City, where it interchanged with the M&BR. Now, this is part of the old Rome-Meridian route has been completely abandoned. Marion Jct. is no longer a junction, whereas it had rails to Selma, Akron (through Marion), Demopolis, and Mobile; it is simply a point on NS's line to Mobile from Selma.
The original route between York and Meridian (via Lauderdale) was abandoned after the Southern System, which had already absorbed the East Tennessee Virginia and Georgia, which had absorbed the Rome-Meridian line, began working more closely with the Queen & Crescent Lines. Apparently the Alabama Great Southern's (part of the Q&C) line (via Toomsuba) was better than the ETV&G's.
So, the privilege of asking a question is back with you.
Johnny,
I'll take a stab at this one though my knowledge of the area is limited and might well be a bit inaccurate. Later maps of the SR show the line between Selma and York severed with its eastern portion ending at or a bit west of Demopolis. After it was severed the western segment of that line ran only a short way east of York to, or near, the small town of Lilita(sp). The short distance between the two ends of the severed line would be where it formerly crossed the Tombigbee River. Since it was navigated by steamboats and later tow boats and barges, I would guess the railroad crosed the river on a swing or draw bridge with probably wooden trestle approaches to the span itself.
I expect some event put the bridge out of commission ending the through train service. The bridge may have been destroyed in a flood, one or both of its approaches may have burned, a steam or tow boat may have rammed it or the swing or draw mechanism may have failed. What ever the event I guess the SR decided it was uneconomical to restore the bridge to service due to the light traffic on the line. I expect this decision was influenced by the existence of an alternative freight route from Selma to Akron then down the Crescent mainline to York.
In later years this area became a part of the Tenn-Tom wateryway and a new lock and dam was built at Demopolis to create the huge Demopolis Reservoir.
I had in mind the Boston-Miami and Boston-St Pete cars which ran pre-WW2 through 13 states (MA, RI, CT, NY, NJ, PA, DE, MD, VA, NC, SC, GA and FL) plus DC over the NYNH&H, PRR, RF&P, ACL and FEC. The car to Miami was carried in the Miamian and the one to St. Pete in the Gulf Coast Special. My '37 guide also shows the SAL's Orange Blossom Special carrying a Boston-Florida sleeper running through the same 13 states. As I said before I didn't know of the PRR/RI/SP New York to Los Angeles car and completely overlooked the Montreal-Florida sleeper which at 15 states would be the correct answer. Since you named that route you get a cigar and get to ask the next question.
KCSfan Johnny, I actually had a different route in mind than either of the two you mentioned. I know better than to question you, but I was unaware that there was a NY-LA car that ran in the RI/SP Golden State Ltd. In what time period did this schedule operate. Mark
I actually had a different route in mind than either of the two you mentioned.
I know better than to question you, but I was unaware that there was a NY-LA car that ran in the RI/SP Golden State Ltd. In what time period did this schedule operate.
Deggesty KCSfanWhat was the route of the sleeping car(s) that traversed the most states? How many states did it run through and over what railroads did it travel? Montréal-Miami sleepers were operated in one Canadian province and fifteen states. Pre-Amtrak, the roads were CN, CV, B&M, NH, PRR, RF&P, and either ACL-FEC or SAL. USA only, a PRR-RI car between NYC and LA ran through fourteen states.
KCSfanWhat was the route of the sleeping car(s) that traversed the most states? How many states did it run through and over what railroads did it travel?
Montréal-Miami sleepers were operated in one Canadian province and fifteen states. Pre-Amtrak, the roads were CN, CV, B&M, NH, PRR, RF&P, and either ACL-FEC or SAL.
USA only, a PRR-RI car between NYC and LA ran through fourteen states.
Sorry to take so long to ask the next question but I've been away from home and my computer the last couple of days.
What was the route of the sleeping car(s) that traversed the most states? How many states did it run through and over what railroads did it travel?
X2000, thanks for enjoying the pictures. As you know, that was the 3rd NYC station.
2nd NYC station 1882-1915
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1st NYC station 1852-1882, where President-elect Abraham Lincoln addressed the citizens of Rochester.
I loved the Rochester pictures. The photos of the NYC Station brought back memories of the huge vaulted waiting room which, as a child, I frequented often with my family heading for New York or Montreal. The lunch counter made the best toast with melted butter! You can also see a balcony off to the right in one of the interior views. There was a large chalk board there directly over the pedestrian tunnel to the tracks. A uiniformed train announcer would constantly change the posted arrivals and departures and would call the train over an unintelligible pa system. The tunnel provided access to twelve platform tracks. There were also "through" main tracks and freight bypass lines which allowed the station to operate with little congestion.
In an inspired fit of economy during the era when the NYC was desperately trying to exit the passengerr business, the railroad "industrial engineered" a "new" station entirely within the pedestrian tunnel;. This allowed them to sell off the station to a private developer (Wolfson, I think). The building was torn down in pieces with the western office wing remaining for years. A local historian termed the destruction as the loss of perhaps the greatest peice of architecture in Monroe County.
The present Amtrak station sits on the site of the old building and actually uses one of the umbrella sheds which was preserved to provide shelter next to the single track that is used for passenger trains. You can still see the "ruins" of the other abandoned platforms and can get a sense of the size of the facility.
X2000
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Mark,
You are right for the LV. It is built entirely over the Genesee River. Trains parked at stub end tracks which were sitting on bridgework extending back from the station building. The building still stands as a barbecue restaurant. The NYC station was a monumental structure, second in size only to Buffalo in New York State (except for GCT). The architect, Claude Bragdon, designed the facade to mimic the proportions of a great steam locomotive as represented by the large arched windows.
The former Erie and Pennsylvania stations are gone but the former Buffalo, Rochester, and Pittsburgh station also survives as a rather famous local eatery, Nick Tahou's, home of the "garbage plate".
Your turn...Mark.
Joe
Joe,
Thr Lehigh Valley station, or at least part of it, was built on beams over the Genesse River which may be the unique feature of it that you had in mind. I don't know about the NYC station however.
Being a Charlotte transplant from upstate Rochester NY, I will ask about two of the passenger stations that served the Flower City. Rochester had two architecturally unique stations. The "main" facility was built by the New York Central and designed by local architect Claude Bragdon, Like Penn Station in New York, it was demolished in a fit of cost cutting in the waning days of NYC passenger service. The present Amtrak station sits on the site of the NYC station. The other station, still standing, was built by the Lehigh Valley. What is (or was) architecturally unique about those two buildings?
Joe Silien
The long distance C&NW gallery cars., both coach and coach and parlor, had the same exterior shell as the commuter cars and were designed for possible conversion to commuter cars, so yes, they had center rather than end doors. Instead of being coverted to commuter cars, they were either leased to or bought by Amtrak. One of their occasional assignements was the brief Milwaukee - St. Louis through train that use Chicago Union as a run-through station. The diners on these trains were on occasion a single-level diner with a false raised roof, but regular single level diners were used also.
While Johnny named some of the trains that carried gallery cars, Joe named the CNW first and since he is a newcomer I think he should get to ask the next question. I may be wrong on some of these but IIRC other Northwestern trains that regularly operated with galllery cars were the Valley "400", the Commuter "400", the Shoreland "400" and the City of Milwaukee "400". I don't believe that the other "400"'s ( Twin Cities, Dakota and Kate Shelley) regularly, if ever, ran with gallery cars.
The very first train trip I took with my wife was from Chicago to Appleton in 1959 on the Valley "400" in a gallery car. Time has dulled my memory of the car but it differed from those in the CNW commuter fleet in that it had restrooms and reclining seats. I can't for the life of me remember whether it had center doors like the commuters or end doors with traps and stairs. Perhaps someone who has a better memory of these cars or has access to a photo of them will clarify this point.
Joe, the next question is yours.
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