Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

[Deggesty]

al-in-chgo

The 30th St. station strikes me as classic "Art Deco" of the WPA style, making it 1930s, but there are probably folks here who know more specifically its sponsorship, vintage and heritage.   

Al, here is a link to some information on the 30th Street Station. http://www.aviewoncities.com/philadelphia/30thstreetstation.htm

[al-in-chgo]

Agree that there was no 30th St. RR station in Philly during the Civil War Era.  (Nor, of course, did electrification exist.) 

The 30th St. station strikes me as classic "Art Deco" of the WPA style, making it 1930s, but there are probably folks here who know more specifically its sponsorship, vintage and heritage.   

[al-in-chgo]

Thanks, Johnny.  You clear things up so well!  -  al

 

[Deggesty]

al-in-chgo

But "back in the day" were there no l-d Espee trains that terminated at (what people still call) the SP or SP Commuter terminal a little east and south of downtown? 

Didn't non-transcon trains like the Lark run thru to SP terminal?  Also was there no transcon. passenger equipment thru to S.F. proper "back in the day" -- Considering that the main line crossed the mts much farther to the south, it wouldn't seem to be going out of the way to add an SF bound coach or pullman, if there were traffic, though I don't know where the Oakland-bound main section would be split to separate the SF parts -- Palo Alto???

Yes, Al, the Lark was a San Francisco-Los Angeles train--and it also had cars that ran between Oakland Pier and Los Angeles (switched in San Jose). The various Daylights (Coast, Morning, Noon) also used the San Francisco station, and may have had through cars to and from Oakland Pier.

The Sunset Limited for some time was a San Francisco-New Orleans train. I know of no other train that ran between eastern points and Los Angeles that also served San Francisco.

[wanswheel]

PENNSYLVANIA R.R.  BURLINGTON ROUTE  THE ALTON ROAD  MILWAUKEE R.R.

What was above and below the above?

Mike

[pookey]

The station of the Pennsylvania Railroad was at 32d & Market in 1861, not 30th St.

Jim K.

[al-in-chgo]

Just to clarify -- I knew the San Francisco Chief was really a misnomer -- it stayed on the mainland. 

But "back in the day" were there no l-d Espee trains that terminated at (what people still call) the SP or SP Commuter terminal a little east and south of downtown? 

Didn't non-transcon trains like the Lark run thru to SP terminal?  Also was there no transcon. passenger equipment thru to S.F. proper "back in the day" -- Considering that the main line crossed the mts much farther to the south, it wouldn't seem to be going out of the way to add an SF bound coach or pullman, if there were traffic, though I don't know where the Oakland-bound main section would be split to separate the SF parts -- Palo Alto???

I'm sorry I don't know the suburbs except for SF Oakland and Berkeley.  All that wonderful LR and stuff they now have down in the valley has eluded me -- but looks very tempting. 

Inquring minds, etc.  Thanks!       al 

 

[narig01]

wanswheel

It seems Oakland station was actually in Emeryville.

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SFOAKDPT.JPG

http://www.ci.emeryville.ca.us/index.aspx?NID=660

My apoligies about getting back here sooner.

That is correct. The Santa Fe's Oakland Depot was at 40th & San Pablo in Emeryville, Ca. The Santa Fe's "Oakland Pier" was the Key System pier. Also I've been told in Emeryville. After the SF Bay Bridge was built there were serious attempts for Santa Fe to have trackage rights into San Francisco over the bridge. After WWII Santa Fe cut back passenger service to a bus connection from Richmond, and the only "railroad" to use the bridge was the Sacramento Northern. The Key System was much more of a transit system.   During the Vietnam era Santa Fe ran numerous troop trains down the line thru Berkeley & Oakland out to the Oakland Army Base. The trains drew numerous anti war protests from what I was told by people I knew who worked for Santa Fe.

 

            Wanswheel ask the next question

 

Thx IGN

[wanswheel]

It seems Oakland station was actually in Emeryville.

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SFOAKDPT.JPG

http://www.ci.emeryville.ca.us/index.aspx?NID=660

[narig01]

KCSfan

Pre-war AT&SF timetables show the Oakland station stop to be at Fortieth St. and San Pablo Ave. (MP 2539.0). SF trains proceded another 5.4 miles from there to terminate at Oakland Pier ( MP 2544.4) whose name leads me to believe it was in the city of Oakland. If not Oakland then it must have been in Alameda which some maps show to be the location of a Santa Fe Ferry "slip" but do not specifically designate it is as "Oakland Pier".

Mark

Neither 40th St  & San Pablo or the"Oakland Pier" are in Oakland. The 40th & San Pablo was Santa Fe's Depot. The "Oakland Pier" was also the end for 2 other systems. Also it was not a Santa Fe property.

     Just after the Bay Bridge opened there was a major fire that burned most of the pier. (and was rebuilt at great expense only to be abandoned a few years later).   The pier is long gone now. 

Also Ferry Point is in Richmond at the end of the yard complex.

Rgds IGN

[KCSfan]

Pre-war AT&SF timetables show the Oakland station stop to be at Fortieth St. and San Pablo Ave. (MP 2539.0). SF trains proceded another 5.4 miles from there to terminate at Oakland Pier ( MP 2544.4) whose name leads me to believe it was in the city of Oakland. If not Oakland then it must have been in Alameda which some maps show to be the location of a Santa Fe Ferry "slip" but do not specifically designate it is as "Oakland Pier".

Mark

[narig01]

 

KCSfan

Oakland Pier which I believe was at Ferry Point, CA

The San Francisco - Oakland Bay Bridge

Mark

Ferry Point is in Richmond, Ca. If you have an OAG for 1940(I should think) look for the Exposition Flyer.

You've got the last part thou.

Thx IGN

[KCSfan]

Oops, I forgot the last part of your question. I believe they would have terminated at the Transbay Terminal

Mark

[KCSfan]

Oakland Pier which I believe was at Ferry Point, CA

The San Francisco - Oakland Bay Bridge

Mark

[narig01]

al-in-chgo

Dude!  As far as I can tell you got not only the standing question right, but four or five preceding that. 

The rest was interesting elaboration, which is fine with me, but nonetheless elaboration. 

Ask away!   

 

Before World War II what was, by timetable the western most point of passenger service on the AT&SF by rail. Proper name of the City/ State
      Also for extra credit there was a proposal that Santa Fe be allowed to cross a bridge to get service to another city.
What was the city and bridge. And last but not least what would have been the terminal?

Rgds IGN

[al-in-chgo]

Dude!  As far as I can tell you got not only the standing question right, but four or five preceding that. 

The rest was interesting elaboration, which is fine with me, but nonetheless elaboration. 

Ask away!   

 

[narig01]

 I take it I got the right answer? I really need to stop shooting from the hip.

Rgds IGN

[daveklepper]

Oy vey, of course BMT!

Thanks for the correction on the Deaborn Street subway.  Should have remembered!

[wanswheel]

Built sturdy as heck.  If there's any interest, a 1904 Times article details some "Features of the New Building," particularly, structural columns accomodating tracks above the pressroom in the basement.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E0CE3DD103DE633A2575AC1A9679C946597D6CF

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

daveklepper

They are both adjacent to subway lines.   The Times Tower has the IRT 7th Avenue line on one side of its basement and the BMY Broadway line on the other side.   Dearborn Street Station has the Congress-Northwest Line Deaborn Street subway on one side and the North-South Line State Street subway on the other side of its basement.

 

But IGN already has a correct and possibly better answer, and of course I defer to him.

While the State Street (Red Line) subway is one one side of Dearborn Station with a stop at Roosevelt Road, the Dearborn Street (Blue Line) subway turns west at Congress Parkway, about two blocks north of the station.

[al-in-chgo]

daveklepper

They are both adjacent to subway lines.   The Times Tower has the IRT 7th Avenue line on one side of its basement and the BMY Broadway line on the other side.   Dearborn Street Station has the Congress-Northwest Line Deaborn Street subway on one side and the North-South Line State Street subway on the other side of its basement.

 

But IGN already has a correct and possibly better answer, and of course I defer to him.

You didn't really mean to type "BMY," did you Dave?  "BMY" is the NYSE code for the Bristol-Myers Squibb pharma company.  The Brooklyn - Manhattan Transit Corporation gave us the initials "BMT." 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMT_(NYCS)

 

[daveklepper]

They are both adjacent to subway lines.   The Times Tower has the IRT 7th Avenue line on one side of its basement and the BMY Broadway line on the other side.   Dearborn Street Station has the Congress-Northwest Line Deaborn Street subway on one side and the North-South Line State Street subway on the other side of its basement.

 

But IGN already has a correct and possibly better answer, and of course I defer to him.

[wanswheel]

IGN, yes your turn.  Dearborn Station was one of the tallest buildings in Chicago in 1884 and the Times Tower was the 2nd tallest building in New York in 1904.  Same architect.

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_eidlitz_2.html

http://www.capstoneconsulting.com/dearborn_station.htm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Crowd_gathers_for_updates_to_1919_World_Series.JPG/486px-Crowd_gathers_for_updates_to_1919_World_Series.JPG

Mike

[narig01]

wanswheel

What does the Times Tower in Times Square (the building where the ball drops on New Year's Eve) have in common with Dearborn Station?

 WAG   The Architect Cyrus L.W.Eidlitz?

Rgds IGN

[narig01]

wanswheel

IGN, as you know, there was a Bob Hope flick.

Yes I've seen it a number of times. He and Betty 's affair predated his resignation. She was an stage actress and that is where they'd met and frequented many of NY's nite clubs. (Unlike the movie) 

Rgds IGN

[narig01]

 If I was to guess probably this came from Tammany Hall. Or someone contributing money somewhere.  The reasons why Tammany backed the IND lines had much more to do with the potential for "campaign" contributions.

     NYC politically during the 1920s was a cesspool. The court system was especially bad if you did not have bribe money. Part of the problem thou was everyone was making money so no one cared much, all you had to do was fork over a little money to "fix" things. It was how organized crime got to be such a problem.  I would suspect there was a lot of money floating around a big construction project like the IND subway.    The thing of it is thou is that the IND subway was the beginnings of the NYCTA and eventually the MTA.  Without which the city would have been in serious difficulties when the IRT & BMT lines failed and were taken over by the city. 

Rgds IGN

[wanswheel]

IGN, as you know, there was a Bob Hope flick.

http://movieart.net/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/full-beaujames%201sh%20rm-2.jpg

It seems improbable that Jimmy Walker himself would've been involved in negotiating for the removal of the ancient Hudson River RR tracks from 10th and 11th Avenues (by means of the High Line, much of which is now a city park, and the midblock cut from 35th St. to 60th St., which Amtrak uses every day), however it's clear that the huge and enormously expensive West Side Improvement Project of the 1930s began on his watch. Excerpt from New York Central Railroad Company Report of the Board of Directors to the Stockholders for the year ended December 31, 1929. Thanks Canada Southern.

What does the Times Tower in Times Square (the building where the ball drops on New Year's Eve) have in common with Dearborn Station?

Mike

[daveklepper]

Should have gotten that one.   Forgot about him.   So let us have the next question?

[narig01]

     I guess I should clarify some of the things Jimmy Walker did for the construction of the Independent Lines The IND Lines were proposed by Motorman John Hylan.  In order for  construction of a municipal line to start in New York state numerous laws needed to be changed.   At the time Jimmy Walker was President Pro Tempore of the State Senate and he (and his staff) advanced the legislation thru the senate then down to the assembly thence to the governor for passage.
       In the 1920’s government supported transit was controversial. By 1925 then mayor John Hylan had made a bad name for himself with the transit companies in the city(He never got over being fired by the BQT, later BMT) and they wanted him gone.   Walker had made a name for himself primarily by being a populist. Amongst other thing he’d written several popular  jazz tunes (the most popular Will you remember me in December as you did in May) .  He’s also brought boxing back to NY state. Also Sunday baseball.(in those days people worked 6 days a week before the 40 hour work week).
     As Mayor he was in large part responsible for keeping the nickel subway fare. Despite the near bankruptcy of the IRT and the fact that the BMT had just exited Bankruptcy and was just hanging on. The franchises for both lines would expire in the 1930’s (I think) . In addition the competition of another transit system and the national financial collapse(the depression) ended with both companies eventually being absorbed by the city. (after he had left office)
    I’m not sure what to say about the corruption charges( He did take money, & used it to keep a cottage for himself and Betty).  The thing I’ve heard from several family members was everyone was taking money.
    Mike I’d like to thank you for finding the pictures. Especially the one of Jimmy Walker and Miss Betty leaving the White House.
Thx IGN

 See also this

http://www.newyorkhistory.info/42nd-Street/jimmywalker.html

[narig01]

wanswheel

Okay. I guess I gotta start thinking of a question to put. 

Here's one: Who exactly was Jimmy Walker?

Mike

Amongst other things, my grandfather(on my mothers side).  

Jimmy Walker, otherwise known as Beau James,  was Mayor of New York City from 1925 to 1932. 

He was supposed to be the M.C. of the opening of the IND subway. That morning he resigned as mayor under considerable political pressure for numerous scandals  He then packed up and set sail for France with his then mistress and later wife the actess Betty Compton.

     He was elected in 1925 and then reelected in 1929. One of the major campaign promises was keeping the subway fares a nickel.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Walker.

 

Wanswheel you question.