Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

[daveklepper]

In that case, there must also have been a:

Fort Worth and Denver City No. 1

Fort Worth and Denver City No. 2

Fort Worth and Denver City Denver Express

But a Forth Worth and Denver City Vestibule Express I am not so sure about!

Colorad and Southern Limited?    Possibly even narrow gauge?

South Park Limited

South Park Express

Rio Grande Southern Express?

Virginian Express or Virginian Limited or Virginian Special

 

[ZephyrOverland]

daveklepper

Before fleet names were adopted for fleets, the first trains of the type were called;

The Burlington Zephyr, not just the Zephyr.

and

The Rock Island Rocket, not just the Rocket.

 

Inclusion of the railroad name in the advertising and promotion as part of the train name identified the product as TRAIN.

 

This lasted only as long as there was only one on each railroad.   Then city names replaced the railroad names.

 

That may be true, but generally the railroad name was used in conjunction with the train name in promotional and marketing efforts only.  The names I have been requesting were actually in the railroad schedule and consist listings.  Ironically, one of the railroads you mentioned, the Burlington, did actually name their trains with the railroad name on a consistent basis in the late 1890's-early 1900's. 

Examples are:

Burlington's Denver Express

Burlington's Number One

Burlington's Number Two

Burlington's Vestibule Express

[daveklepper]

Before fleet names were adopted for fleets, the first trains of the type were called;

The Burlington Zephyr, not just the Zephyr.

and

The Rock Island Rocket, not just the Rocket.

 

Inclusion of the railroad name in the advertising and promotion as part of the train name identified the product as TRAIN.

 

This lasted only as long as there was only one on each railroad.   Then city names replaced the railroad names.

[ZephyrOverland]

adkdivfan

Just to add to the confusion, the names "Broadway Ltd" & "Pennsylvania Ltd" were switched to other services late in the game. In the 50's, PRR 1/2, an all-Pullman extra-fare service known as the Pennsylvania Limited, was dropped, and the name was attached to a train previously known as 'The Gotham". The better-known switch occurred in 12/67 when 28/29 were discontinued and the "Broadway" name was applied to the General.

 

What you describe was more of the rule rather then the exception.  In the Amtrak era there is a false sense of stability as far as passenger train nomenclature is concerned.  For better or worse, excepting a few de luxe trains that were more or less stable, the passenger train names here in the US and Canada were more or less a capricious endeavor, with names appearing and disappearing with regularity.  It wasn't until the late 1920's that railroads discovered that train names had marketing value and by the time streamliners began appearing, you begin to see branding of passenger train services by the use of fleet names. 

Passenger train names has been one of my primary railroad-related interests ever since high school, and at this point I have a database of thousands of train names and variants of names going back to the 1880's.  About 300 of those names can answer the current question about passenger train names that contained railroad names in them.

So bring on some more answers!

[adkdivfan]

Just to add to the confusion, the names "Broadway Ltd" & "Pennsylvania Ltd" were switched to other services late in the game. In the 50's, PRR 1/2, an all-Pullman extra-fare service known as the Pennsylvania Limited, was dropped, and the name was attached to a train previously known as 'The Gotham". The better-known switch occurred in 12/67 when 28/29 were discontinued and the "Broadway" name was applied to the General.

[daveklepper]

Thanks.   Always willing to learn something new.   The dates are important.

[ZephyrOverland]

daveklepper

Do you have a timetable or Official Guide that lists the "Pennsylvania Special"?

 

I have plenty of Official Guides that document the Pennsylvania Special.  The Pennsylvania Special was the 20-hour train the PRR inaugurated the same day the New York Central and Hudson River RR and the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern began the 20th Century Limited.  The Pennsylvania Special did not become the Broadway Limited until 1912.   There was also a Pennsylvania Special that ran on the PRR-Lines West in the early 1890's from Pittsburgh to Indianapolis. The following is a 1909 Milwaukee Journal advertisement about the Pennsylvania Special.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xhweAAAAIBAJ&sjid=RH4EAAAAIBAJ&dq=pennsylvania-special&pg=6741%2C2344884

[daveklepper]

Do you have a timetable or Official Guide that lists the "Pennsylvania Special"?

[ZephyrOverland]

adkdivfan

A few more: "Rio Grande Zephyr" D&RGW Denver-Ogden: "Soo-Dominion" Soo/CP Twin Cities-Vancouver; "Erie-Lackawanna Limited" EL Hoboken-Chicago (name change after the 1960 merger, later the Phoebe Snow name was used); "Pennsylvania Special" PRR NY-Chicago (the forerunner of the Broadway, & a seperate train from the Pa Ltd). I realize I'm stretching so please consider this a non-competitive entry.

 

All of your entries are good.  

Despite your request I'm considering this as one of the entries.  This question on the surface may seem simple but its going to take a lot of stretching to get all of the answers.

Also keep in mind that the purpose of the Classic Railroad Quiz is ultimately to exchange information and knowledge between like minded individuals who are interested in railroad history.  All submissions are good and the more people contribute the more we all learn. 

 

[daveklepper]

Again, it was the Pennsylvania Limited, not the Pennsylvania Special.   Important.

[adkdivfan]

A few more: "Rio Grande Zephyr" D&RGW Denver-Ogden: "Soo-Dominion" Soo/CP Twin Cities-Vancouver; "Erie-Lackawanna Limited" EL Hoboken-Chicago (name change after the 1960 merger, later the Phoebe Snow name was used); "Pennsylvania Special" PRR NY-Chicago (the forerunner of the Broadway, & a seperate train from the Pa Ltd). I realize I'm stretching so please consider this a non-competitive entry.

[ZephyrOverland]

"The Pennsylvania Limited was the PRR flagship before the Broadway was introduced, and should qualify .  Actually, so should the Broadway, because it was named after the four-track RofW and not after the street in New York City.   Both NYC-Chi, of course."

The Pennsylvania Limited is OK.  The Broadway is not - Im looking for passenger train names that had the actual railroad name in it such as the Pennsylvania Limited.

"Pere Marquattes.   Several trains, with the destinations then made part of the name."  OK

"Lackawanna Limited, Nickel Plate Limited. The Southern Crescent was the Crescent renamed after it got coaches and was rerouted via Birmingham instead of Montgomery."

The first two are fine, but the Southern Crescent name was actually derived from the combination of the Southerner and Crescent then those two trains were combined.

"The stillborn streamliner that never ran, the Chessie."  Nope - I'm looking for literal railroad names, not nicknames. 

"The Katy Flyer:"  OK

 

So far so good.  There are plenty more out there.  Also, there are a number of examples of named trains that were named for off line railroads.  Two examples:

C&O Special - Big4 - Chicago-Cincinnati

C&O Express - PRR - New York-Washington

[daveklepper]

The Pennsylvania Limited was the PRR flagship before the Broadway was introduced, and should qualify .  Actually, so should the Broadway, because it was named after the four-track RofW and not after the street in New York City.   Both NYC-Chi, of course.

Pere Marquattes.   Several trains, with the destinations then made part of the name.

Lackawanna Limited, Nickel Plate Limited. The Southern Crescent was the Crescent renamed after it got coaches and was rerouted via Birmingham instead of Montgomery.

The stillborn streamliner that never ran, the Chessie.

The Katy Flyer 

[ZephyrOverland]

henry6

The Sante Fe Chief...was it named for the railroad or the city?  Chi-LA

The Southern Belle...wasn't it named for the Southern?

Rutland Flyer: Rouses Point, NY to NYC via Rutland, Bennington, and the NYC's NY and Harlem.

The Wabash Cannonball St. Louis to Detroit but named after the railroad or the river?

 

The Santa Fe Chief was officially named the Chief, not the Sante Fe Chief.

The Southern Belle operated on the Kansas City Southern, not the Southern.

The Rutland Flyer and Wabash Cannonball are OK.  The Wabash Cannonball was named after the song which, I assume referred to a train on the Wabash.

[henry6]

Oh, yes, I'm anxiously awaiting all the expected entries. 

The Sante Fe Chief...was it named for the railroad or the city?  Chi-LA

The Southern Belle...wasn't it named for the Southern?

Rutland Flyer: Rouses Point, NY to NYC via Rutland, Bennington, and the NYC's NY and Harlem.

The Wabash Cannonball St. Louis to Detroit but named after the railroad or the river?

[ZephyrOverland]

henry6

Yeah, the problem here is that virtually every road had a "limited" in their own name.  ..

 So lets add: the Rutland Flyer, The Wabash Cannonball, the Sante Fe Chief, et al., The Southern Belle,...but are these not geographic names (too)?  Ansewr(s) for this are gonna be fun to watch.

 

Why is it a problem?  That means more entries.....

 As for your entries, could you also enter the RR and endpoints.  Also, I'm not accepting the Chief and Southern Belle.  I don't recall any railroads named Chief or Southern Belle.

[ZephyrOverland]

CSSHEGEWISCH

For openers:

Erie Limited - Erie - Jersey City-Chicago

Alton Limited - Alton - Chicago-St. Louis

Nickel Plate Limited - NKP - Chicago-Buffalo

Pere Marquettes - PM - Chicago-Grand Rapids and Detroit-Grand Rapids

North Western Limited - C&NW - Chicago - Twin Cities

 

All good...

[henry6]

Yeah, the problem here is that virtually every road had a "limited" in their own name.  ..

 So lets add: the Rutland Flyer, The Wabash Cannonball, the Sante Fe Chief, et al., The Southern Belle,...but are these not geographic names (too)?  Ansewr(s) for this are gonna be fun to watch.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

For openers:

Erie Limited - Erie - Jersey City-Chicago

Alton Limited - Alton - Chicago-St. Louis

Nickel Plate Limited - NKP - Chicago-Buffalo

Pere Marquettes - PM - Chicago-Grand Rapids and Detroit-Grand Rapids

North Western Limited - C&NW - Chicago - Twin Cities

[ZephyrOverland]

 

daveklepper

Zephyr Overland has a precise and accurate and complete answer and should ask the next question.   Thanks.    I had forgotton about the replacement of the worn-upholstery ex-PRR and ex-NYC sleepers with fresh-looking UP ones.   I did enjoy the economy of the Slumbercoach on that first Amtrak ride.

The next challenge is:

Give the name, RR and endpoints of passenger trains what were named after railroads.

[daveklepper]

Zephyr Overland has a precise and accurate and complete answer and should ask the next question.   Thanks.    I had forgotton about the replacement of the worn-upholstery ex-PRR and ex-NYC sleepers with fresh-looking UP ones.   I did enjoy the economy of the Slumbercoach on that first Amtrak ride.

[narig01]

al-in-chgo

Just to clarify -- I knew the San Francisco Chief was really a misnomer -- it stayed on the mainland. 

But "back in the day" were there no l-d Espee trains that terminated at (what people still call) the SP or SP Commuter terminal a little east and south of downtown? 

Didn't non-transcon trains like the Lark run thru to SP terminal?  Also was there no transcon. passenger equipment thru to S.F. proper "back in the day" -- Considering that the main line crossed the mts much farther to the south, it wouldn't seem to be going out of the way to add an SF bound coach or pullman, if there were traffic, though I don't know where the Oakland-bound main section would be split to separate the SF parts -- Palo Alto???

I'm sorry I don't know the suburbs except for SF Oakland and Berkeley.  All that wonderful LR and stuff they now have down in the valley has eluded me -- but looks very tempting. 

Inquring minds, etc.  Thanks!       al 

 

SP had their San Francisco Depot at 3rd and Townsend St. It was torn down in the late 1970's  and replace with a "commuter" depot with a very small waiting area at 4th and Townsend St. Both these depots were appox 1 mile from downtown San Francisco. In addition to the commute trains(commute not commuter) various coastal trains departed from here as well. In addition to the
Daylite there were also the Del Monte to Monterrey. I do not remember the name of the train but there was a train to Santa Cruz that went thru Los Gatos and Felton.I suspect there may have been connections thru Los Angeles to a wide variety of trains from there all on the SP system. I do not have any OAG's to look these up. SP  did not like to use the overland route (the UP connection) as there rate division was much better when traffic was routed down thru Arizona to Texas thence on the Cotton Belt.
In addition to the 3rd and Townsend depot, The SP also served San Francisco thru a ferry connection from the Oakland Mole.  Trains to the  north to Oregon/Washington and to the east that went over Donner left from the Oakland Mole. As well as trains to the San Joaquin Valley.  I'll cite the following trains The Shasta Daylight, The City of San Francisco, The San Joaquin Daylight.
The ferry service was discontinued in 1959 I think. (If I remember what I was told and read) .  The San Francisco stop for many of these trains was the San Francisco Ferry Building at the foot of Market St. If you see pictures of San Francisco's Market St pre 1960 or post 1992, you will see the Ferry building clock at the foot of Market St.  In pictures from1960 to 1992 you will see the Embarcadero Freeway at the foot of Market St with the Ferry building sticking up over the top of the freeway(The freeway was badly damaged during the 1989 loma prieta earthquake and was subsequently torn down was the eyesore it was,  yea mother nature).
    The coast connection from San Jose to Oakland starts in Santa Clara were line to Oakland branches off thru the salt marshes of the south bay thru Alviso to Newark and north to Oakland.
By timetable the western point on the SP system was San Francisco. And all trains thru Oakland changed numbers there.(and technically changed from westbound to eastbound)
    Today the Oakland Mole is the Port of Oakland';s main container terminal it is also a major originator for the UP for Intermodal.   In addition Amtrak has their washrack on the lead still.
(the site is leftover from when it was an SP facility I believe) .

       I know this a lot of triva and a little off subject but think of the history!!!!!!!

Thx IGN

[ZephyrOverland]

daveklepper

1.  The 20th Century Limited was downgraded by combination with Commodore Vanderbilt, having coaches added, and running time slightly lenthened.   A further downgrading occured when essentially all east-west long-distance trains were consolidated into one train, with train names eliminated, and the one Albany-Rensselair - Buffalo train handled cars (variously sleepers only, sleepers and coaches, sleepers, coaches, and slumbercoach) NY-Chi via Cleveland/Toledo, NY-Chi via Detroit, NY - St, Louis, NY - Cincinnati, NY - Toronto, Boston - Chicago via Cleveland/Toledo.   We called the trian, "The Steel Fleet."  When the Penn Central merger occured, the service pattern remained the same, but there was one change important for travelers and operating people.   What was that important change?   The train was discontinued with the start of Amtrak in 1971, later partly resurrected vy Amtrak as the "Lake Shore Limited."   What was the important change that Penn Central effected?

2.  I rode the last eastbound :City of Los Angels on an interline LA-NY UP-Amtrak ticket.   The UP put 844 ahead of the diesels Rawlins-Cheyenne, and I had the pleasure of watching the steamer from the most forward dome.  No dome diner, however.  Equipment in beautiful condition in every respect.  I actually detrained in Elgin and spent some time visiting friends before using a suburban train to Union Station to board the Broadway Limited for New York.  Immediately on assuming the service, and discontinuing NY -Chicago service via the "Water Level Route," Amtrak instituted on important passsenger service improvemnt for the Broadway, which I used.   What was the service improvement and why was it possible? 

Please give people who know both answers a chance.

 

1. The PC trains that used La Salle Street Station were shifted to Union Station.

2. When Amtrak took over the Broadway Limited, it immediately instituted several improvements on that train including; restoring the twin-unit diner (during the PC years the Broadway had a single unit diner), utilizing ex-UP sleepers in the Broadway's consist, and instituting Slumbercoach service.

 

[daveklepper]

I could easiy have confused the "Travel by train" sign with some other Chicago station.

 

Do I need to give a hnt or two on my double question?  Anyone with timetables or Official Guides of the two periods should be able to answer both parts.

[ZephyrOverland]

daveklepper

Are you absolutely sure there was never a "Travel by Train" sign in addition?  I am pretty sure there was one at one time, or some similar slogan.   But it may have been elsewhere on the building exterior.

Is there a Metra and Amtrak sign replacing the various railroads, today?

I don't believe there ever was a "Travel by Train" sign on the main building of Chicago Union Station.  For a number of years, the Chicago Union Station sign consisted of "Union Station" on top, and the names of the tenant railroads below that.   There may have been a "Travel by Train" sign on the annex building (which no longer exists), but I have never seen any such photos proving this.

Currently, there is no Metra or Amtrak sign on the Union Station building itself, just mock deco "Union Station" lettering above the columns on the Canal Street side.  I think the letters from the original Union Station sign that was on top of the building still exist (not the railroad names).  I saw the letters at the Illinois Railway Museum several years ago and I assume they still have them.

[daveklepper]

1.  The 20th Century Limited was downgraded by combination with Commodore Vanderbilt, having coaches added, and running time slightly lenthened.   A further downgrading occured when essentially all east-west long-distance trains were consolidated into one train, with train names eliminated, and the one Albany-Rensselair - Buffalo train handled cars (variously sleepers only, sleepers and coaches, sleepers, coaches, and slumbercoach) NY-Chi via Cleveland/Toledo, NY-Chi via Detroit, NY - St, Louis, NY - Cincinnati, NY - Toronto, Boston - Chicago via Cleveland/Toledo.   We called the trian, "The Steel Fleet."  When the Penn Central merger occured, the service pattern remained the same, but there was one change important for travelers and operating people.   What was that important change?   The train was discontinued with the start of Amtrak in 1971, later partly resurrected vy Amtrak as the "Lake Shore Limited."   What was the important change that Penn Central effected?

2.  I rode the last eastbound :City of Los Angels on an interline LA-NY UP-Amtrak ticket.   The UP put 844 ahead of the diesels Rawlins-Cheyenne, and I had the pleasure of watching the steamer from the most forward dome.  No dome diner, however.  Equipment in beautiful condition in every respect.  I actually detrained in Elgin and spent some time visiting friends before using a suburban train to Union Station to board the Broadway Limited for New York.  Immediately on assuming the service, and discontinuing NY -Chicago service via the "Water Level Route," Amtrak instituted on important passsenger service improvemnt for the Broadway, which I used.   What was the service improvement and why was it possible? 

Please give people who know both answers a chance.

[wanswheel]

Dave, I know only what I see in pictures.  No roof sign nowadays.  In 1988, the words Union Station. 

http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakonline/bhaithcoatchicagounionstationcirca1988.jpg

Pease ask the next question.

 

[daveklepper]

Are you absolutely sure there was never a "Travel by Train" sign in addition?  I am pretty sure there was one at one time, or some similar slogan.   But it may have been elsewhere on the building exterior.

For those that don't know (are there any?)  we are talking about the existing Union Station in the days before the Penn Central and Burlington Northern mergers.

Do I get to ask the next question?

 

Is there a Metra and Amtrak sign replacing the various railroads, today?

[wanswheel]

Dave, yes but Union Station itself was the thing below the sign on the roof.

http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/3201.html

[daveklepper]

Answer to the question:

 Above:   UNION STATION

 Below"    Travel by train