How's that for mind reading? I answered Al's question before he posted it--and we are more than a thousand miles apart!
Johnny
Deggesty New question: What was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in scheduled service? Name the railroad, the end cities and the accomodations in the car.
New question: What was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in scheduled service? Name the railroad, the end cities and the accomodations in the car.
Johnny, does this include Canada as well as the USA? (al)
PS Johnny: I am glad we are TRAINS Friends. I don't know how the new program functions, but pvt mail or e-mail me if you'd like my e-mail address. - a.s.
I should have specified the last heavy weight sleeper line operated in the U. S. A.
Dave Klepper: "1. Parlor car seating: 2 and 1 parlor cars were a post WWII New Haven innovation, and in the full parlor cars, they did not last, but were reatined in the parlor-baggage combines."
Dave, in April of 1970, I rode in two of the 2 and 1 parlor cars, NY-NH and NH to Boston. As I recall these were full parlors and not combines, but I may be mistaken. When I was buying my space in GCT, a lady ahead of me asked for two seats side by side, and I thought she was mistaken--until I boarded for New Haven (hardly anybody else was in the car).
You certainly have done enough to ask the next question:
1. Parlor car seating: 2 and 1 parlor cars were a post WWII New Haven innovation, and in the full parlor cars, they did not last, but were reatined in the parlor-baggage combines. The heavyweight parlors all had regular 1 and 1 parlor seating until they were converted into commuter coaches when the lightweights arrived. I rode a heavyweight parlor Boston - NY behind an I-5 (to New Haven) in 1948, and the coaches were already the 8600 series postwar Pullman built lightweights. No parlor cars per se operatined GCT - Maine. The night train each way, was the State of Maine, as you noted, with through Pullman cars to both Concord and Bangor, the latter via the Maine Central, Faced with greatly increased travel demand on the route during WWII, the B&M and NYNH&H simply innaugurated "The Day Express" using the State of Maine equipment in reverse moves, so each set made one round trip each day instead of one round trip every two days. Space in the sleeping cars, set up for daytime operation, was sold as parlor car space, maximum of two people to each section, with first come sitting forward. Rooms were were sold at the regular day drawing room rate as drawing rooms on parlor cars were sold. I think yes but am unsure about the through cars to Cocord and Bangor on The Day Express. Whe I rode the Day Express in was in a camp special coach, one of four on the train, all of which did get switched at Lowell and ran reverse to Concrd, IU think with a regular sleeper as well. I rode the Concrod sleeper on The State... many times, sometimes in a camp special sleeper, but also in the regular sleeper. Never rode through to Bangor, but did to Portland on "The State..."
.The Day Express ran via Putnam, a shorter route, less total travel time, and allowing more time for the quick turn around at each end. Providence was on the traditional State of Maine route, and stayed that way through WWII. In the very last years, the The State... was actually combined with "The Owl" from Boston (2AM departure) south of Providence. The Day Express was dropped from the timetable shortlyi after the end of WWII when riding began dropping.
If there are other gaps not completely answered, I'll provide the information. Meanwhile, I do look forward to the next question/
Next question(s): During WWII there were two through trains between Portland, ME, and Grand Central Terminal, New York City.
They did not go through Boston but through Worcester (the spelling accepted by its residents).
2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference? One went via Putnam, leaving the NH main at New London; the other went via Providence, thence over what was, and is again, the P&W.
3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical? Operated by Pullman and not NH? Two and one seating (which, I believe, was standard on the NH)?
4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains? State of Maine had a NY-Concord, N. H. Sleeper. I am not sure about the other train, since I do not have a WWII Guide that shows the service.
5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points. I have no idea.
6. Today, which railroads own the tracks that these trains used? Again, be specific as to the junciton points. (As far as I know, all is still in service, some possibly freight only.)
Metro North to New Haven, Amtrak to Providence, P&W to Worcester, Guilford to Portland and Concord (the Concord car was switched at Lowell).
ZephyrOverland wrote on 9/2: "As mentioned in another post, there was through Chicago-Vancouver service via Soo and CP and the Mountaineer and the Soo-Dominion."
There was also a through Chicago-Vancouver sleeper in 1930 that ran over the C&NW (Duluth-Superior Limite) to Duluth, and over the DW&P to Fort Frances, where the CN picked it up on the Continental Limited.
narig01 What about the Canadian connections? I recall somewhere that there were connections from Chicago to the Western Canadian provinces. Where there any that continued thru to Seattle?
What about the Canadian connections? I recall somewhere that there were connections from Chicago to the Western Canadian provinces. Where there any that continued thru to Seattle?
As mentioned in another post, there was through Chicago-Vancouver service via Soo and CP and the Mountaineer and the Soo-Dominion. Soo/CP also operated through service to Seattle but only to/from St. Paul. That train was called the Pacific Coast Express and was operated in the years before WWI via Soo to Portal, CP to Sumas, WA and NP to Seattle. Soo/CP also operated through St. Paul-Portland service, the Soo Spokane-Portland Train de Luxe. This train ran St. Paul-Portal via the Soo, Portal-Kingsport via CP, Spokane International Railway Kingsport-Spokane and Oregon RR and Navigation Spokane-Portland.
Another interesting note: in the 1900-1910 timeframe, the North Coast Limited was operated as a St. Paul-Portland train that ran via Seattle. When the train was extended to operate to/from Chicago via the C&NW, the western endpoint became Seattle.
Can you do a little more research and name the two trains? Both trains did run via Worcester and Ayer and you are correct about the UNION FRIEGHT RAILROAD, also the Grand Junction would not have been of much use either. But south of Worcester the differences existed.
The New Haven 4-6-4 streamlined steam were I-5's, not I-9's. Yes Alco DL-109's were possible, probably not I-5's which mainly were in Boston only service, but rather the excellent I-4 Pacifics which were the last New Haven revenue steam locomotives in service. Some engineers prefered them to the Hudsons. South of New Haven, of course either EP2 - -2-6-2+2-6-2, EP3 - 4-6-6-4. or EP4 4-6-6-4. The EF-3 4-6-6-4 would not be used because it could not runto GCT. North of Worcester, B&M Pacifics of various types, including ex-DL&W, sold to the B&M when the DL&W got its Hudsons..
Unless someone else comes up with the train names, the reason for departure from usual parlor car equipment, and the exact routes south of Worcester, you will have the right to ask the next question/ But give it a try.
Deggesty daveklepper: Next question(s): During WWII there were two through trains between Portland, ME, and Grand Central Terminal, New York City. 1. How did both trains get around the lack of a North Station - South Station Boston passenger train connection? 2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference? 3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical? 4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains? 5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points. 6. Today, which railroads own the tracks that these trains used? Again, be specific as to the junciton points. (As far as I know, all is still in service, some possibly freight only.)
daveklepper: Next question(s): During WWII there were two through trains between Portland, ME, and Grand Central Terminal, New York City. 1. How did both trains get around the lack of a North Station - South Station Boston passenger train connection? 2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference? 3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical? 4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains? 5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points. 6. Today, which railroads own the tracks that these trains used? Again, be specific as to the junciton points. (As far as I know, all is still in service, some possibly freight only.)
1. How did both trains get around the lack of a North Station - South Station Boston passenger train connection?
2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference?
3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical?
4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains?
5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points.
1. How did the trains get around the lack of a connection in Boston?
Somewhere I read that thru service was to Maine was thru Worchester. Also I think Ayers, Ma
2. The different routings. New Haven, Hartford, Springfield, Ma to Worcester.
New Haven , Providence, RI to Worchester
3 & 4. Someone else will have to answer.
5. DL 109's New Haven Providence Worchester also I-9's(??) (a 4-6-4)
The New Haven , Hartford Springfield to Worcester I will confess absolute ignorance.
6. Current Railroads. New Haven Providence to Worcester Amtrak.
New Haven Springfield Amtrak Springfield Worcester CSX. P&W may own some small segments.
These are all connections to Ayer, Ma Ayer , Ma north Pan Am Ry (formeley Guilford)
I know someone will do a lot better on this than I.
The interesting thing is that there is a connection from South Station to North Station. The Union Connecting RR. Everything I've read about this RR is that it was freight only and never ran passenger trains. Understandable as I think it had a lot of street running.
Thx IGN
the b&o
daveklepper The question of through service in LA was answered by you and also by a posting on the TRAINS general discussion forum about the "continiuation track" in the LAUPT throat layout that was there specifically to allow run arounds and switching for through trains at the stub-end terminal. So, I would say possibly there was a Seattle - Chicago through sleeper at one time or another, The via Portland car was the Pullman that arrived at Seattle at one station and left at another. The reason? There was pool service between Seattle and Portland. When I rode, there were three trains each way each day, spaced conveniently throughout the day. One was GN, one was NP, and one was UP. Tickets were interchangeable. So the through Pullman via Portland went one way via UP and the other way via GN or NP. Even pretty late, without a through Chicago car, there were through Seattle - SF and Seattle - LA cars that were handled this way. The GM Train of Tomorrow was one of the pool trains for a while, I think UP, but I am not sure. The Seattle cars to SF (Oakland) and LA were handled on SP's Cascade, but I am unsure whether the LA car went via San Jose or down the Valley south of Oakland. Do I make up for the real mistake of forgetting that the Olympian Hiawatha ran through Seattle to Tacoma? Next question(s): During WWII there were two through trains between Portland, ME, and Grand Central Terminal, New York City. 1. How did both trains get around the lack of a North Station - South Station Boston passenger train connection? 2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference? 3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical? 4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains? 5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points. 6. Today, which railroads own the tracks that these trains used? Again, be specific as to the junciton points. (As far as I know, all is still in service, some possibly freight only.)
The question of through service in LA was answered by you and also by a posting on the TRAINS general discussion forum about the "continiuation track" in the LAUPT throat layout that was there specifically to allow run arounds and switching for through trains at the stub-end terminal. So, I would say possibly there was a Seattle - Chicago through sleeper at one time or another, The via Portland car was the Pullman that arrived at Seattle at one station and left at another. The reason? There was pool service between Seattle and Portland. When I rode, there were three trains each way each day, spaced conveniently throughout the day. One was GN, one was NP, and one was UP. Tickets were interchangeable. So the through Pullman via Portland went one way via UP and the other way via GN or NP. Even pretty late, without a through Chicago car, there were through Seattle - SF and Seattle - LA cars that were handled this way. The GM Train of Tomorrow was one of the pool trains for a while, I think UP, but I am not sure. The Seattle cars to SF (Oakland) and LA were handled on SP's Cascade, but I am unsure whether the LA car went via San Jose or down the Valley south of Oakland.
Do I make up for the real mistake of forgetting that the Olympian Hiawatha ran through Seattle to Tacoma?
First, I was asking about the sleeper carried on the City of Portland. Yes, it went up to Seattle on the UP's train, which used The Train of Tomorrow's equipment, and went into Union Station (UP & MILW), and came back to Portland, from King Street (NP & GN) on Pool 408, which was operated by NP (you can tell which road actually operated a day train by seeing which road operated the parlor car).
None of the old Guides I have (1893, 1916, 1930, many from 1937 on) shows any Chicago-Seattle service via Los Angeles. There was, at least in 1930, a Portland-Chicago sleeper via Klamath Falls and the Modoc route. As to through service Seattle-LA, the 1930 Guide shows such on the West Coast, going through Sacramento and the San Joaquin Valley. It is possible that through service did exist via the Coast Line, but I do not know of any prior to Amtrak's service. Incidentally, in both 1916 and 1930, there were through sleeper between Chicago and LA via Oakland using both Coast Line and San Joaquin Valley line.
Yes, Dave, you have covered your track quite well by explaining the use of the different stations in Seattle.
Dae, I should added that you have earned the privilege of asking the next question (despite your though about the Milwaukee).
Dave Klepper: "....I believe in 1950 The Portland Rose and the City of Portland would have such through sleeprs, then obviously the North Coast Limited, the Mainstreeter. the Olympian Hiawatha, the Empire Builder, the Western Star. I am fairly certain that no such car ran via the AT&SF, or via the Cal Zephyr, but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route..
By 1958 the list had shrunk to just the five through trains listed after "obviously.""
Dave, the UP had no sleepers with the endpoints of Chicago and Seattle in February of 1950. Incidentally, after the City of Portland was inaugurated the Portland Rose became a Kansas City-Portland train (no connections to/from Chicago).
Nor did the Olympian Hiawatha have any sleepers with the same endpoints–Seattle was a waystation between Chicago and Tacoma on the Milwaukee Road.
The Mainstreeter did not exist in 1950; the then secondary train, the Alaskan, did not have an sleepers except St. Paul-Mandan and Billings-Spokane.
Also, the name, Western Star, did not exist in 1950–but the Oriental Limited did have the desired cars. And–the two GN trains had somewhat different routings; the Builder went through New Rockford, and the Limited went through Grand Forks.
Absolutely the, SFe and the Cal Zephyr had none. (When the GN’s line down to Bieber, connecting with the WP, was constructed, there was thought of running a San Francisco section of the premier GN train that way.) Also, the SP contributed in no way to Chicago-Seattle service.
So, you named the three trains (each with different routings) for 1950; should I gig you one for saying that the Olympian Hiawatha began and ended in Seattle?
Now, as to 1958, the Mainstreeter (via Helena) and the North Coast Limited (via Butte), the Empire Builder (same routing), the Western Star (same routing except that for a time, it ran via Great Falls as well), AND the City of Portland! carried Chicago-Seattle cars, for a total of five trains–all running different routings.
Just think! in a time that train service was being reduced, two more trains carried Chicago-Seattle cars.
Another (no points) question: wb, the car carried through Portland arrived in Seattle at Union Station and left from King Street Station. Why?
IGN: "What about the Canadian connections? I recall somewhere that there were connections from Chicago to the Western Canadian provinces. Where there any that continued thru to Seattle?"
I know of none from Chicago, except possibly about 100 years ago. There was through, especially summer, service Chicago-Vancouver before and after WWII.
For many years, the Sunset Limited was a New Orleans-San Francisco train by way of Los Angeles
daveklepper" but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route.. By 1958 the list had shrunk to just the five through trains listed after "obviously."
" but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route..
By 1958 the list had shrunk to just the five through trains listed after "obviously."
Someone stated in one of these threads that for some reason the SP did not really have thru service thru Los Angeles for some reason. So I would kind of doubt that the Golden State Limited had thru sleepers.
You are correct: I believe in 1950 The Portland Rose and the City of Portland would have such through sleeprs, then obviously the North Coast Limited, the Mainstreeter. the Olympian Hiawatha, the Empire Builder, the Western Star. I am fairly certain that no such car ran via the AT&SF, or via the Cal Zephyr, but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route..
Deggestydaveklepper The AT&SF is the right railroad, and you probably have the correct answer, but you might also check the initial Super Chief operation when it was first introduced as weekly or every third day operation. And go ahead and ask the next question if you have one! Dave, I looked in the November, 1937, and January, 1941, issues of the Guide, and discovered that the Super Chief made many operational stops between Kansas City and Barstow, but no scheduled stops for passengers, though it was possible to stop at some stations under certain conditions. I wonder if the Chief made operational stops that are not shown in the timetable in 1930. As to a question: in February of 1950, what trains carried sleepers with end points of Chicago and Seattle--and in April of 1958, what trains then carried sleepers with the same end points?
daveklepper The AT&SF is the right railroad, and you probably have the correct answer, but you might also check the initial Super Chief operation when it was first introduced as weekly or every third day operation. And go ahead and ask the next question if you have one!
The AT&SF is the right railroad, and you probably have the correct answer, but you might also check the initial Super Chief operation when it was first introduced as weekly or every third day operation. And go ahead and ask the next question if you have one!
As to a question: in February of 1950, what trains carried sleepers with end points of Chicago and Seattle--and in April of 1958, what trains then carried sleepers with the same end points?
Did UP have thru service here? I would think the City of Portland, Portland Rose the Challenger might have had thru cars as described. (Dream Trains 2 article on the City of St Louis describes thru cars on this train as traveling on the Idahoan. I would think that this would be a connection for other trains as well)
Not having a Guide. These are just WAG's and before I forget what about Soo Line/CP ?(I think) .
daveklepper Again, please check other long distance timetables, and do go back to the 1920's if necessary.
Again, please check other long distance timetables, and do go back to the 1920's if necessary.
al-in-chgoYes, I'm pretty sure that under PRR the DC/Union Station to NYC/Penna was listed at 224 point something miles even though the numbers had not been readjusted when the trains stopped running in and out of Center City Phila. Maybe it just didn't make financial sense to re-order the mileposts? And so many other operations so convenienty used the mileposts as markers to determine elapsed distance. This was particularly true up in N.J. and may still be for all I know.
Well, Al, the mileposts do not run continuously from NYP to DC. Here is a list (from an Employee TT) of the mileposts from NYC to DC: NYP: 0.0; Hudson: 8.6/8.0; West Philadelphia: 89.2/1.5; Washington Union: 136.0. This actually comes out to 225.2 miles. Yet, the PRR showed it as 226.6 miles, as though the trains ran into Broad Street.
Aside: if you really want to see dual mileposts at stations, look at an SP timetable; apparently when track was straightened the new MP at the next station was shown, along with the older MP. The Burlington/NP/GN lines did not even show new mileposts, you have to look at the distance shown between stations to see how far it actually is from division point to division point. Some roads will have notes as to the actual distance between two mile posts when there have been changes in the track, such as a special instruction in ACL/SCL/CSX TT's that tell you that the distance between A768 and A771 (between Winter Park and Sanford) is so many feet.
daveklepper Hint: Can you check some other railroad's timetable, particularly known for long distance fast passenger trains? And Amtrak did at one time schedule a nonstop Washington-Newark-NY Metroliner, with Washington-Newark 218 miles, I believe. Ithink it was 6AM or 6:30AM departure from Washington.
Hint: Can you check some other railroad's timetable, particularly known for long distance fast passenger trains?
And Amtrak did at one time schedule a nonstop Washington-Newark-NY Metroliner, with Washington-Newark 218 miles, I believe. Ithink it was 6AM or 6:30AM departure from Washington.
I agree with the statement about the Washington-Newark-NYC/Penn express, but look for it quick in timetables: that particular run didn't last very long because it annoyed Philadelphians no end to see the Metroliner creep thru 30th St. station knowing that a stop would add only a couple of mins. to the schedule.
Yes, I'm pretty sure that under PRR the DC/Union Station to NYC/Penna was listed at 224 point something miles even though the numbers had not been readjusted when the trains stopped running in and out of Center City Phila. Maybe it just didn't make financial sense to re-order the mileposts? And so many other operations so convenienty used the mileposts as markers to determine elapsed distance. This was particularly true up in N.J. and may still be for all I know.
Western lines, hmmm. I can't tackle that without research. Someone will know, I bet. - al
I was citing the January, 1941, Guide. I did not check all of the issues that I have, but I did look in one from 1948, one from 1950, and one from 1958, and found no listing for any other train that ran non-stop from New York even to Baltimore (roughly 186 miles), much less to Washington. If I could find the time, I would look at all of that I have and see if there was any other train that ran non-stop farther than the train I reported.
I throw my 2 cents worth in many times from memory(a lot of times fuzzy memories of what I remember being told). So someone with an with a guide answer.
narig01 FYI . Auto Train did make several stops for crew changes, before Amtrak. Since the only stop it makes is in Rocky Mount to change crews & restock. My nomination there was a mail train that ran New York Penn Station to Washington DC non stop overnite. It lasted into the 60's I think. I believe it had a coach or two tacked on the rear. 300 Miles or so? Rgds IGN
FYI . Auto Train did make several stops for crew changes, before Amtrak. Since the only stop it makes is in Rocky Mount to change crews & restock.
My nomination there was a mail train that ran New York Penn Station to Washington DC non stop overnite. It lasted into the 60's I think. I believe it had a coach or two tacked on the rear. 300 Miles or so?
Rgds IGN
The NY-DC distance is more like 224 miles. (PRR included the distance nto Broad Street and back even after 30th Street became the stop for Philadelphia., making it 226.6 miles). In January of 1941, the section of #103 that had nothing but Washington sleepers had no stops scheduled betwenn NYC and DC. The section with Baltimore and Southern sleepers stopped at Baltimore.
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