I'll defer the question to whomever wants to ask the next one!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I like the disclaimer "Arrivals and departures are given as information, and are not guaranteed." I wonder how much interchange there was with the AB&A, the ACL, and the Waycross & Western.
The spell check was put together by someone who knows little about Georgia; it does not recognize the name of the major city in the map's area.
Johnny
Deggesty I like the disclaimer "Arrivals and departures are given as information, and are not guaranteed." I wonder how much interchange there was with the AB&A, the ACL, and the Waycross & Western. The spell check was put together by someone who knows little about Georgia; it does not recognize the name of the major city in the map's area.
I imagine there was very little interchange, probably just a car or two every so often. Billy's Island was one of the cypress logging camps in the swamp and at one time had a population of around 600 which makes one realize how labor intensive the industry once was.
Johnny, since BaltACD deferred why don't you pose the next question.
Mark
The Lumber Trade Journal, October 1, 1912
Cypress Company is First to Penetrate Okefenokee Swamp with Railroad
The following article from a Jacksonville daily shows only one instance of how the lumber manufacturer in the effort to secure logs for his mill accomplishes that which has heretofore been considered impossible:
Floridians and Georgians generally will be interested to learn that one of the hardest engineering feats ever accomplished in the South is in progress in the famous Okefenokee swamp in Georgia. The feat is the building of a modern railroad through a swamp that heretofore has been hard to enter. The railroad's name is the Waycross & Southern, and it started at Waycross two years ago.
Just how the construction gangs make a roadbed that will hold a train is a question that few know, even when it has been explained. Little engines but strong, are used on the new or lower end of the road, hence carloads of roadbed material that could not otherwise be transported are got along the right of way.
Modern in every respect is this railroad, despite the dismal swamp through which it will pass for miles. The road while going through the swamp is making a lot of money. All of the logs that the Hebard Cypress Company at Waycross use are hauled over the road by special trains. In keeping with the tendency of all railroads, the Waycross & Southern is operated by telephone.
Just where the new road is going when the swamp is pierced is another matter. Rumor has repeatedly said a connection would be made with the Georgia, Southern and Florida, and service be extended into Jacksonville. Another report was to the effect that when the road was through the Okefenokee some other system might step in and continue the construction to some gulf point. Railroaders who have been over the line are confident that the road is being built for future use and not merely for the present needs of the system.
The man behind this road, the general superintendent, is John M. Hopkins of Waycross. Before he moved to Waycross he made his home at Darien. Probably no man in the state has spent as much time in the Okefenokee as he. Before work began on the railroad he made numerous trips through the swamp to make sure of the proper route for the railroad and the various spur tracks that were to be built to reach the timber supply.
About thirty miles of rail has been placed since the first work began. More will be placed as soon as the right of way is ready and then as fast as is found necessary the road will be pushed through the swamp.
That a railroad is a developer is well shown by this road. Several thriving little towns have grown up along its route south of Waycross mostly due to the locating of sawmills and turpentine stills. However they all produce business.
http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/sanborn/CityCounty/Waycross1922/Sheet28.html
http://www.sherpaguides.com/georgia/okefenokee_swamp/hebard_lumber_company/
Moody’s Analysis of Investments (1922)
WAYCROSS & SOUTHERN RR. Incorporated under the laws of Georgia in 1910. Road consists of 22.88 miles of track extending from Hopkins to Hebardville, Ga., connecting at that point with the Atlanta, Birmingham & Atlantic Ry. and at Waycross, Ga. with the A.C.L.R.R. Gauge standard. Equipment consists of 3 locomotives, 2 passenger cars and 137 freight cars.
The Southern/WPRte/L&N train 37/38 operated under several names. What names were given it during the nineteen thirties? What was distinctive about the all-section sleepers it carried in the thirties?
Johnny:
My 1936 OG does not show all section sleepers on that train and does not have a train name, just 37 and 38.
I am guessing that either the section sleepers had tall men's sections or they were segregated.
Ed Burns
Ed, I do not have a 1936 Guide, but I do have a September, 1936, Southern timetable, which shows the accommodations of the cars carried on the train, and there was one car with nothing but sections. However, your possible distinctions do not apply. Off hand, the only cars I can think of with extra-long berths were on the original City of Portland, and I had not heard of segregated sections; I do know that when Booker T. Washington traveled, he had a drawing room.
As to the name, you are close; is it spelled out, or is just in numerals? Since the publishers of the Guide charged for every character, the Southern may have economized that year, but the TT has the name spelled out: THIRTY-SEVEN AND THIRTY-EIGHT. That leaves two names to be provided, as well as the distinctive feature of the all-section sleepers (the Southern used four originally, but needed only two in September of 1936--I could have made the reason another part of the question).
No's 37/38 are designated as the Crescent Limited in the January 1930 OG. In 1938 the word, Limited, was dropped and the trains became just the Crescent. The only all section sleeper listed is a 14 sec Washington - New Orleans car. It's possible that during the depression these trains carried tourist sleepers which would be all sections cars.
Mark, these were not tourist cars.
You have the names right, except that the train was simply called by its numbers in between the two; Limited was dropped earlier (I do not know just when, except that it was by 1936).
Regarding all-section sleeping cars, for a while the ACL ran an all-section, 14-section lightweight sleeper each way on the Washington - Jacksonville Everglades. rode it
I need to ask about tourist sleepers. From what I can figure out, they were old 16 section sleeping cars that were past their prime and had numbers, not names. Where the fares lower then regular sleepers? When where the list of them retired? Did they make into WWII?
NP Eddie Johnny: I need to ask about tourist sleepers. From what I can figure out, they were old 16 section sleeping cars that were past their prime and had numbers, not names. Where the fares lower then regular sleepers? When where the list of them retired? Did they make into WWII? Ed Burns
There were still many of them around in 1941, and Pullman put them into service on the MAINS that carried servicemen to and from bases and ports.
When my mother, her parents and her brothers traveled from Seattle to the Twin Cities on the Oriental Limited in 1907, they rode in a tourist sleeper, which had kitchen facilities for the benefit of the passengers. I do not remember if they changed in Minneapolis or St. Paul to continue on to Chicago.
Dave, do you remember anything different from ordinary cars in the 14 section sleeper you rode in? Pullman rebuilt a total of sixteen cars to this configuration--four for the Southern, another ten in the Dale series (which may have been for the B&O), and two others with unrelated names--there was a relation between the names of the cars rebuilt for the Southern).
In the long-ago past tourist sleepers were purpose built, both for the Pullman pool and for particular carriers. Lots of these were listed in the 1950 Pullman list, but most were retired very soon after that, though some may have remained in service for Korean War troop movements. The main difference seems to have been that tourist cars were usually all-section, with only basic furnishings. The tourist sleepers used in WWII were often 12&1 sleepers with the door to the drawing room removed along with the drawing room toilet making them in effect 13 section cars.
The eight cars in the "Dale" series were plan 2412H or 2412P using Pullman's diagram 22, 10 sections (1 to 10), and 4 private sections (A to D), with private sections adjoining open sections 9 and 10. In the postwar breakup 2 each went to B&O (the 2412P cars) and PRR, with the remaining 4 in the Pullman pool.
I can't find any 14 section lightweight's in my reference material (ACL didn't have any). Car name, Dave?
The only "modern" tourist sleepers were the Milwaukee's Touralux cars, built as late as 1948 for the Olympian Hiawatha. Of course the Budd Slumbercoach was intended as a sort of tourist sleeper replacement.
I perhaps should have remarked that the first class train between New York and New Orleans still bore the full name Crescent Limited in 1931.
As to the destinations of the 14 section car, in 1931, it was a New York-New Orleans car; in 1936 it was a Washington to Atlanta car that went north on #30 (no name)--which provided .almost a true overnight service between the two cities (7:00 pm to 8:30 am SB and 6:10 pm to 11:20 am NB); and Mark has noted that in 1938 it was a Washington-New Orleans car--which still required four cars.
But, what was distinctive about this car? It's listed simply as a 14 section car. What filled the space that two other sections (a 16 section car was a standard accommodation) would have occupied? It could have had another description.
Incidentally, what major change took place in its schedule in the thirties?--no credit,just general information to those of us who may be unaware of the change.
DeggestyBut, what was distinctive about this car? It's listed simply as a 14 section car. What filled the space that two other sections (a 16 section car was a standard accommodation) would have occupied? It could have had another description.
Jim Crow accommodations?
standard 16-section car with two sections reserved for crew?
No, the entire car was for passengers.
Oversize men's and women's lavatories/lounges. Just a guess.
Southern also had some plan 2412x (x beiing some capital letter) cars assigned. The four enclosed sections - later sold as roomettes even though they had upper berths - were longer than standard sections.
An example car would be "Henry W. Grady", rebuilt to plan 2412H from 12s1DR car "Greytown" in 1934 and painted Southern two-tone green.
KCSfan Oversize men's and women's lavatories/lounges. Just a guess. Mark
rcdrye Southern also had some plan 2412x (x beiing some capital letter) cars assigned. The four enclosed sections - later sold as roomettes even though they had upper berths - were longer than standard sections. An example car would be "Henry W. Grady", rebuilt to plan 2412H from 12s1DR car "Greytown" in 1934 and painted Southern two-tone green.
You're getting close--but what took the space relinquished by the other accommodation (a drawing room in the case of this car; something else in the other three--but Pullman Panorama, Volume 1 says "Greytown" was a sixteen section car)? Incidentally, I had no information as to the length of any berth in these four cars.
It appears there may have been a small buffet lounge in the 2412H cars. I can't tell from the drawing if it was a solarium.
The drawing of 2412-H in Kratville's Passenger Car Catalog (my source information) does not show anything at all like a buffet lounge; it shows four very small rooms.
And the drawing of 2412-J (two cars) shows four enclosed sections (two at each end) that are closed off from the aisle by accordion-type (called pantagraph) doors.
Incidentally, the four cars rebuilt for Southern went through two re-buildings--first, in 1929, to larger lavatories, and second, in 1930, to the floor plan under discussion--unless the names of the cars in the first re-build were changed when the second four were rebuilt.
The drawing labeled 2412H actually belonged to a different car plan. I found a photo of "Henry W. Grady" in Dubin's "Some Classic Trains". Side panel shows seven paired windows and what looks like a very large (by 1930s standards) lounge area on either end. The left end of the car photo shows three frosted windows, the right end a corresponding pattern that probably was the aisle side.
Thanks for the reference to Some Classic Trains. I found the article on the Southern's premium train, and I noticed that Mr. Dubin stated that this "Henry W. Grady" was delivered in 1929--which makes its plan Plan 3958-A, which is a fourteen section car with larger than usual lavatories.
However, I believe that the Southern would have been using cars delivered in October of 1930 (plan 2412-H) in 1931 and later.
What is the immediately noticeable difference between 3958-A and 2412-H, other than the size of the lavatories at the ends of the car? Or, what use is made of the space occupied by the missing two sections?
"Henry W. Grady" appears to have existed in several versions.
The plan 2412H car was rebuilt in early 1932 from plan 2412 16 section (Pullman diagram 1) "Graytown" which had been assigned to the PRR. It was in turn rebuilt in 1937 to plan 4042B "Heidelberg College" (10 sec, 2 Cpt 1 DR). Renamed Huntingdon College in 1939 Sold to Southern in the 1948 Pullman breakup, it was retired in 1964.
An earlier Henry W. Grady was a Plan 3584A car built in 1925, renamed "Point Phillip" in 1929. It was a 10 sec 2 DR car rebuilt in 1937 to plan 4090D "Watching Tower" (8 sec, 3 DBR, 1 DR)
Th car that carried the name between 1929 and 1932 was the plan 3958A car renamed in 1932 to "Park Summit". It ended up on the NKP. Like the 2412H car, it had 14 sections, but no private ones (Pullman Diagram 2)
Pullman diagram for plan 2412H shows a private lavatory annex for each private section, with the annexes paired between the sections. From the outside it would look like a standard paired window set but with frosted glass. Here's a link to a copy:
http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=%2Fnby_pullman&CISOPTR=596&DMSCALE=58.65103&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMMODE=viewer&DMFULL=0&DMOLDSCALE=14.66276&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&DMTHUMB=1&REC=1&DMROTATE=0&x=68&y=21
I'm guessing the photo in Dubin's book is of the 1925 plan 3584A car. Thanks to the Pullman Project ( http://pullmanproject.com ) for the exhaustive data.
Aha! rcdrye has told us what was really distinctive about these cars, as well as their having four private sections in them. As well as I can tell, from the drawing in Kratville's book, these sections were closed off from the aisle. I had not known that they were later sold as roomettes, despite not having the toilet facilities in the room, as what we know real roomettes as having. At least, the people occupying them did not have to wait if they needed to use their own facilities. I wonder how the annexes were marked to indicate that each one was for the exclusive use of the occupants of a particular section.
Apparently, these accommodations were not in great demand, since Kratville lists only the sixteen in the Dale series, and the four in the Southern's famous men series. I do not remember how I arrived at the conclusion that three of the Dales were operated on the B&O. Also, the drawing in Kratville indicates that one window on each side of the car was shared by the two annexes on each side.
The Southern really liked cars with the names of famous Southerners, for when newer cars, with perhaps different accommodations were put into service, the newer cars bore the same names the older cars bore.
Ed started the ball rolling by telling us that there was a time when the train bore no name at all, but was simply known by its numbers; Mark told us of the change in the name with the dropping of "Limited," but the identification of the private sections, with the description of the distinctive feature trumps the rest.
The last use that I know of for one of these cars was the L&N's use of a fourteen section car between Birmingham and Pensacola--down three nights a week and back three nights a week--though it may have been a car with larger lavatories.
Not sure if I won here or not... Here's a new question though.
Pullman operated three parlor cars that were identified by number only. They were built by three different builders for two different trains for one railroad. Pullman also operated 11 heavyweight parlors and numerous sleepers on the same railroad.
Name the railroad and trains. There is a connection to the train in the last question.
Johnny is quite right about the window on the 2412H cars. The plan clearly shows a single window, though it must have had some kind of divider to separate the lavatories. Some sources say that the "Dale" cars were initially assigned to New Orleans - San Francisco service on the SP, but withdrawn in the late 1920s when the train was cut back to Los Angeles.
Possibly the GM&O or the Alton before it? The Abraham Lincoln and possibly the Alton Lmt? With the numerous sleepers, except for on the Owl, used on through service to MP and TP points.
Alton's (and GM&O's) parlors were all railroad operated. You are in the right market for one of the trains.
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