If you go for the second unusual line, I'll post some hints.
Since no one else is trying I'll claim victory. I think you're referring to Fields Corner- Neponset. Let me know (or give the answer) and I'll try to come up with a question.
Fields corner was and is a rapid transit station and the Fields Corner- Neponset line was untypical in one other respect, but in terms of being a rapid transit feeder it was just like the lines from Harvard Sq., Maverick, Dudley, Forest Hills-Arborway, Eggleston, Sullaven Square, and Ashmont.
Hints: (1) You are somewhat close. (2) The replacement bus now does contact a rapid transit station that did not exist when the streetcar line ran. (3) The outer end of the line was and is often flooded at high tide making for a forced short-turn cutback. (4) The line did give free transfers to the other streetcar line that did run to a rapid trransit station, but despite the free transfer, an extra fare had to be paid before reachiing the rapid transit station. (5) Only three cars were needed during rush hours. (6) Much of the line was single track. (7) Cars used were double-end, more modern and more comfortable than Type 5's, but not PCC's. Yet all such cars in the Boston area were either sold or scrapped before any Type 5 cars (other than wreck damaged) were scrapped. And the only time cars of this type ran downtown (through the subway) was on their way to be scrapped. This move required two motormen. (6) Some cars of this type (not this particular line) changed ownership and ffleet numbers in 1935 but still operated out of the same carhouse. One is at Seashore.
I'm reasonably sure you're referring to a former Easter Mass St. Ry line (Car 7005 is a lightweight steel car, not as cheaply built as a type 5). I'm at a loss for end points.
You are correct. The Eastern Mass car has been returned to its original number, but ran from 1935 or 1936 to 1946 or 1947 as a Boston Elevated (then MTA) 4400-series car in servie in East Boston, Chelsie, and Revere. where it had previously operated for Eastern Mass. But Eastern Mass still had two rail divisions in the Boston area. One division used EM 4300 Brill Semi-convertables and the oher the Osgood Bradley 7000-series lightweights. The 4300's were housed in the BE/MTA Salem Street carhouse and operated through over the Elm St. Fellsway line to Sullivan Square, with motorman exchanged at the "Sheep Fold" and extra fare collected. the northern terminal Stoneham. Would you likd to research the other division that lasted through WWII? Or do you wish me to give the answer?
The other Eastern Mass car at Seashore is 4387, used on the Stoneham line.
There were a couple of former Eastern Mass lines that ran to the Revere Beach loop that were discontinued just before the Revere Extension (today's Blue Line) got to Wonderland in the early 1950s. Some of the lines in that area used PCCs.
PCC's never ran to or in East Boston, Chelsea, and Revere except on two fan trips via service-only connecting trackage, all after 1935-1936 when the EM soild the whole division to Boston Elevated. Berfore the sale, EM cars regularlly ran from the Brattle Street Loop (Subway) to Rever Beach via the Chelsea Avenue Bridge, sharing tracks wtih BE Brattle - Bunker Hill - Sullivan Square cars up to the Bunker Hill Street tturnoff, where they continued into Chelseia across the bridge. They ran a year or two earlier all the way to Lynn and Salem. And the 7000 lighweights provided this service, which commpeted with the B&M and the B&RB Narrow Gauge. But the Celsea Bridge was closed for construction of the Mystic River Bridge tthat was build without car tracks. EM cars had also run from Maverick to Revere Beach, using BE crews as far as Oreint Heights. When they could not longer run their EM cars to downtown Boston, they put buses from Haymaarket Square on the Lynn and Salem service, possibly earlier, through the new Calalhan Tunnel, and sold this streetcar system to the Boston Elevated. With that purchase came first ten and then 15 mmmore lightweights, which became Boston Elevated 4400s, Also about 40 Eastern Mass 4200 Brill semi-convertables that retained their EM numbers with the Boston El. The latter were scrapped as they wore out, even during WWII, and only about 15 were left after WWII. Graduallly, Type 5's and Type 4's took over the whole area, mostlly Type 5's, and all lines ran from Maverck for across-the-platform transfer to the East Boston Tunnel trains.. Some Tyype 4's hauled Center Entrance trailers for the Suffolk Downs racetrack service.
The Stonam Sullivan Square service was operated by Eastern Mas 4300 series Brill semi-convertables, and lasted until 1947 0r 1948. In the last fiew months, EM borrowed back 4200s from the MTA to replace two 4300s damaged in a head-on. And the onlly PCC's on the Fellsway were fan-trips (of which I organized one, with a City Point all-electric non-mu PCC with standee windows, Could not run father than the Salem St,. carhouse with its loop.)
EM did on occasion borrow type-5's from BE abnd MTA for extra heavy move occasions, getting the cars back to BE or MTA in time for rush hours.
You are still missing an EM division that ran through WWII with two lines, one a heavy line running from a rapid transit station, part way over an MTA streetcar line to its end, and then continuing along way through an area now served by rapid transit to an very busy military-related establishment where the USA Navy paid for a track extension in WWI. And a three-car-at-most, mostly single-track connecting line that was often fludded at its outer end. And you were close.
I can't find a map of this but I have found a picture of the Houghs Neck line in Quincy which was single track, near water, and connected somewhere near the Neponset line. I'm sure the modern equivalent connects with the Red Line extension in Quincy.
Seashore's cars from the EMSR and predecessors are in various states. As far as I know 4175 and 7005 are in the shop building. 4387 may have gone back to one of the barns.
4175 (Bay State St. Ry) looks beautiful, needs motor and interior work, but has funding.
4387 (EM St. Ry) Roof rework is done, painted last summer, now some interior cleanup. PC-10 MU control. Possibly back in the operating fleet this summer.
7005 (EM St. Ry) Stripped shell, lots of steelwork done, now being put back together.
P-601 (EM St. Ry) sweeper. Was on the list of possible cars for last year's Trolley Parade but didn't make it out.
Since you mentioned them on the way by, the Seashore shopmen have built a new Boston CE underframe (and key parts for a second) and are in the precess of a complete CE restoration, including re-engineering a Westinghouse ABPC Unit switch. (ABPC = Auto acceleration, Battery, PC (GE) compatible)
Hous Neck is the line. Hous Neck - Quincy Square, where it connected with the Quincy (Shipyard) - Fileds Corner cars, also the same type of Bradley lightweights, plus borrowed Type 5's on occasion, which used the BE/MTA Neponset - Fields Corner tracks for abou 25% od its run. Every other car leaving Fields Corner on the Neponset line was an EM car running through to Quincy.
Look forward to your question.
4 streetcars, not three, during the rush hour. Bus subtituion in 1946. Quncy - Neponoset - Fields Corner in 1948, followed a few months later by the MTA Neponset - Fields Corner line. 17 cars on he Quncy - Fileds Corner line plus during WWII four MTA Type 5's. 10 minute headway on both lines during rush hours, plus 10minute headway on MTA cars to Nepnset, but the Neponset car generally ran a short time ahead o fthe Quincy car. Monotmen and fare boxes exchanged at Neponset.
The bus service was different, in that EM busses ran nonstop Neponset- Fields. Today it is one sysem.
In May of 1910, 22 busieness men from Utica NY chartered Oneida Rys. car 502 for a charter to a major annual national sporting event. Where were they going? What route did they take to get there?
Possibly a horse-racing event at Saratoga, if the interurban tracks connected through on what became New York State Railways?
This is really a WAG but it's as good as any I can come up with right now. They were going to the Kentucky Derby and their route was:
Oneida Ry (West Shore) - Utica to Syracuse
NYC&HR - Syracuse to Cleveland
CCC&StL - Cleveland to Indianapolis
PRR - Indianapolis to Louisville
Another possible route would be Big 4 Cleveland to Greencastle and Monon Greencastle to Louisville.
Mark
daveklepper Possibly a horse-racing event at Saratoga, if the interurban tracks connected through on what became New York State Railways?
There was a gap from Little Falls to Johnstown NY that was never filled that would have prevented them from heading to Saratoga. This major sporting event, which still happens annually, was a little further west and took (more than) a little longer to get to...
Boat racing at the Canandaigua Yacht Club near Canandaigua, NY, on Lake Canandagua, one of the Finger Lakes, and reached by Rochester Railways. Eventurally, it, all the connecting lines, and Oneida Railways were all part of New York State Railwaysm which was a New York Centeral RR subsidiary. One of the connecting links in 1910 between Oneida Railways and Rochester Railways was the electrified West Shore Railways line, but I forget what its name of the short time of its independent existance was..
Only Oneida Railways was an interurban... It ran from Utica to Syracuse over the third-rail equipped West Shore Railroad, but was in the streets on both ends.
its local trains were on street in Oneida as well. Races at Silvan Beach, reached via round-about local streetcar tracks or by a faster direct change to NYO&W "beach trains." I am unsure with the races were running marathons, the runniing mile, swimming, or boat racing, all were possible. Of perhaps a combination!
Your second destination choice was actually correct. Car 502 went west from Syracuse over a bunch of different lines. Want to try your hand at naming them 1908 style?
rcdrye In May of 1910, 22 busieness men from Utica NY chartered Oneida Rys. car 502 for a charter to a major annual national sporting event. Where were they going? What route did they take to get there?
Isn't it stretching quite a bit to call any of the events at Sylvan Beach a major national sporting event?
wanswheel is clearly correct and the winner and should ask the next question, but could he tell us how the 80 ft. gap was bridged, and how the interurban car got through the too-low underpass? The higher voltage was probably no provlem, with the car coupled behind one of the regular cars on the line.
Be great if we could see a map with the different systems labeled and the locations of the specific problems, plus the direction of travel where appropriate.
Good job wanswheel! I had the destination correct but had no idea the entire trip could have been made over interurban lines. I also never imagined anyone would undertake such a journey when travel by steam roads would be so much faster and comfortable. This led me to think they only chartered the Oneida car to reach Syracuse where they would transfer to a chartered Pullman for the rest of the trip over the railroads I mentioned. You are definitely our winner and I look forward to your question.
Excsllent job! The 80 foot gap involved the "special switch" in Syracuse. The actual issue was that New York Central had blocked the Rochester Syracuse and Eastern from crossing just outsided of Syracuse. The crossing was completed in time for the excursion. Here's a partial list of companies involved, not including city systems. Since two different routes, along with a side trip to Detroit, are involved:
Oneida Railways
Rochester Syracuse and Eastern
Buffalo Rockport and Rochester
International Railways
Buffalo and Erie
Northeast Ohio
Cleveland Painesville and Ashtabula
Lake Shore Electric
Fort Wayne Van Wert and Lima
Indiana Public Service
Union Traction of Indiana
Interstate Public Service
Terre Haute Indianapolis and Eastern
Michigan Railways
Dayton and Western
Cleveland and Southwestern
Cincinnati Hamilton and Dayton
Four companies' lines became part of Indiana Railroad: Indiana Public Service, Union Traction of Indiana, Interstate Public Service, and Terre Haute Indianapolis and Eastern. Cincinnati Hamilton and Dayton became part of Cincinnaii and Lake Erie. Dayton and Western was operated for a time by Cincinnati and Lake Erie, and for a short time by Indiana Railroad. This was, of course, much later!
I presume the participants spent nights in hotels. Would be interested in knowing which cities.
Wonderful piece of research!
As to the relative comfort of interurban trolley cars versus the steam railroads, remember there was no air-conditioning. So travelers may have had less need to clean themselves off when traveling with electric power . Given the extensive streetcar networks in all the cities visited, the special interurban car could deliver them right to their hotels, without the need to drag baggage from a railroad station. And interurban car travel gave a closer look at towns and cities. And they had the view up front over the engineer's shoulder when they wanted it. I suspect they all regarded it as a very positive experience.
daveklepper As to the relative comfort of interurban trolley cars versus the steam railroads . . . . .
As to the relative comfort of interurban trolley cars versus the steam railroads . . . . .
For many of those aboard I suspect that the novelty of the ride would have worn off after a few hours sitting in those wicker chairs with no diner or lounge car to visit. The trip to Louisville required staying at hotels in Erie, Mansfield, Columbus, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis. Returning they stayed overnight in Ft. Wayne, Toledo, Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo. I imagine They had good breakfasts and suppers at their hotels but lunches at intermediate meal stops were likely more problematical. As we both well know, the lightly ballasted tracks of many interurbans often made for a lot of rocking and rolling at high speeds and nowhere as smooth a ride as in a heavy weight Pullman. I doubt if anyone who made that odyssey had any desire to repeat the trip.
I don't agree. Possibly some kitchen facilities were installed. Connecticut 500 has some. Most of us have experienced interurbans after a period of decline. But even then, at high speed, right toward the end of service, a ride on the Electroliner from Chi to Mlw seemed smooth enoiugh to me. They took their trip at a time when track maintenance was compervable to most steam roads, before the decline in patronage meant cutting back. If they were not enjoying themselves, undoubtadly some in the party would have returned by regular train.
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