Henry has the first one I came up with, even though the St. Clair tunnel is between Port Huron and Sarnia, and not in Detroit. CN and GTW's St. Clair Tunnel Co. bought 3000 volt AC box motors from the CSS&SB that were built for the CLS&SB, made surplus in the 1926 DC re-electrification of the South Shore.
The other two I came up with are the Michigan Central's Detroit-Windsor operation that featured ex-NYC R series freight motors and some tri-powered swithcers built for operation on New York's West Side Line, and CN's ex-Montreal Harbours Board units built by England's Dick, Kerr that CN acquired in 1942 for its Mt. Royal Tunnel electrification.
I'll concede that Milwaukee had tunnels - but its electrification wasn't just for that reason. I'm saved from any further concession by Henry getting the answer in first!
I'm tired and unprepared....didn't think I'd get the right answer. For an easterner, New Yorker from NJ, Detroit is the whole population between Windsor, ON and Kalamazoo, MI! Anyway, here goes...
The right of way was an underground water transportation operation, then abandoned, then became a rail operation. Its name was misleading for it wasn't what it said it was, at least not in the traditional sense. Name both entities who used this right of way.
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I believe you are refering to the Rochester Subway. The Erie Canal ran through Rochester, NY, but was rerouted early in the 19th Century, leaving the route through the city abandoned. A bit less than 100 years ago the "Rochester Rapid Transit and Industrial Railroad" converted it into a subway for use by the interurban trolley lines that had entered Rochester on the street, and also to provide interchange railroad freight service to on-line customers with sidings. Freight interchange was the last use of any part of the subway lline, I believe cars of paper for a newspaper or newspaper chain. The interurbans quit before WWII, but local service for the length of the subway line, one end serving a GM plant, continued, and also one local Rochester streetcar line that lasted during WWII was rerouted into the subway. The subway never saw passenger trrain operation nor any equipment representing normal rapid transit equipment, only streetcar and single interurban car equipment. The local subway pasenger service carried on into the mid-50's, then part of the line was abandoned, and freight service on the remaining part continued a few more years until the newspaper plant relocated.
The right-of-way was reused as part of today's I-490. The Subway had three tracks, one for freight, the two passenger tracks were operated left-handed to allow use of a center platform. Most of the interurban lines used it for less than three years.
I am not sure the Rochester route was called a subway...but it is not the one I was thinking of as mine still exists today. as was intended in second use.
Mason Tunnel in Botetourt fits the definition, doesn't it? James River & Kanawha Canal, and then that predecessor railroad that wound up in CSX...
Is it an operating rail operation today?
narig01At the risk of winning the grand prize : The Newark Subway. Originally the Morris Canal? I do not know if the canal was underground. Thx IGN
IGN
The Grand Poopah of Minutia and Rail Trivia awards you the Grand Risk Prize Award. Although there appears there might be other answers, Newark City Subway is the answer I was looking for as it is still operating today, albeit expanded as NJT's Newark Light Rail. It was built along the tow path of the Morris Canal including the tunnel under Newark itself. The title of Grand Poopah of Minutia and Rail Trivia is upon you to generate the next inquiry for out minds.
T hank S.
Since you did not state the route is still in operation, I assumed you meant something not in operation and thus chose the Rochester situation, exactlly parallel to the Newark situation in every way. So I also gave a correct answer. Indeed, Henry, more correct, because the name Morris (or Morrsi and Essix) Canal was descriiptive of the orginal canal, where as Erie Canal was descriptive onlly with regard to one intended destination. I am thoroughly aware of the history of the Newark subway and rode all the lines that fed into it after WWII up to the extensions at the time that LRV's replaced PCC's. I rode Central Avenue, Orange Avenue, and Bloomfield Avenue, the last many times, as well as the connecting track between the Orange Avenue and Central Avenue lines normally used for put-in and pull-out moves. One fact that many don't know is that the Newark Subway used a mixture of double-end and single-end cars. Bloomfield had a loop at the end of the line in Caldwell and one at the Bloomfiled Bell Avenue carhouse for cut-backs, so it used single-end cars. The subway terminal aft Franklin was just a stub end so it need double-end cars. Central also used double-end cars, but Orange Avenue signle-end. Central was the first to be abandoned after WWII, 1948, but I think Bloomfield lasted until 1952. The original Canal did serve Morris County, and the current NJT line was called the Morris and Essex Division under the DL&W. The Blloomfield Avenue line was a short distance from the Bloomfield station of the DL&W, so a trip could go H&M-Hoboken-DL&W-Bloomfield-Caldwell-Newark-PRR-H&M Joint-service and back home. I never did ride the Rochester subway. Almost all the streetcars that ran into the Newark subway before the PCC's came had the sign "SUBWAY CAR, SAVE TIME AND PARKIING" on each side.
Long after Public Service abandoned its trackless trolley network, using "All Service vehicles," just before the Bloomfield Avenue line was converted to buses running downtown on the service but with free transfer ("continuing trip ticket NOT a transfer") to the subway, PS installed a short TT demonstraition line at the Bloomfield carhouse, and GM provided a dual-service bus with TT poles . It worked fine, and PS wanted to get the city of Newark to pay for converting subway to TT for such vehicles. The reaction was, if dual service is so great, why did you get rid of it? So PS bought the second-hand PCC's and built a loop.
Look forward to IG's question. But be sure that the Rochester people called it the Subway. Still do. Indeed, trhe Route 8 streetcar that was rerouted into the subway carried a "via subway" sign.
Just like the itnerrubans used the Rochester subway for less than three years, so the |Newark subway branch thorugh the basement (with station) of the PS building was used for even less time, wwith the streetcars going to distant towns that used it converted to buses. Now of course it is back in use for the line to the DL&W Newark station. But the P{S building is gone and so is the station.
I grew in Denville, north New Jersey from the time I was 3 and a half in Nov 1946 and saw the Newark City Subway cross Bloomfield Ave many times but never rode. In fact it wasn't until the late 90's that I ever rode the line all the way to the end where it looped back. Next ride was the last day of PCC cars. At that time NJT had Public Relations, Class, and empathy with people and history. It was planned that they would suspend normal operations at noon that day and then at 1PM they would offer free PCC rides non stop through the loop and back. What backfired was the number of people who showed up. NJT was up to it and so just filled cars and sent them off; often on each other's tailights forgetting the every minute schedule. The employees enjoyed it as much as the fans. It was a sad but celebratory day well done by NJT. Since that day, I've ridden the whole system (Broad St to Newark Penn to Grove St) quite a few times.
NJT's DL&W Morris and Essex Lines were, and often are, called Morris and Essex because of the original Newark to Phillipsburg railroad being so named. The DL&W was not the holder of the Morris Canal but it was the Lehigh Valley RR which needed coal moved from Easton, PA but was fearful of across the cinders competitor, the CNJ.
Yes, you did say Rochester Subway. And it was on a canal bed, perhaps the first dig of the Erie Canal. And I did miss post by not saying "still in service". To that, Dave, I can only apologize at this point.
Moclips, Washington?
My illy-constructed spell checker does not recognize "Moclips" as being a word. I will add it to the dictionary (the adjective "illy" also was unknown the illiterate compiler of the dictionary. What can you expect of these products of modern "education?"
Johnny
I don't think it is Moclips, but close. I think I remember it as Oclaps, Washington. Or Ocleps, Washington
Or Ocelaps, Washington Or Ocelaps, Washington I think one of these is right. Defnitely on the end of a branch line. But maybe the "c" should be replaced with a "k".
It is Moclips. I believe Ocosta was also on the coast, just on a more southern branch.
Ian (and others), here is one:
Most passenger trains kept the same number from origin to destination. There have been a few exceptions, such as the SP's West Coast, which ran between Portland and Los Angeles, going through Sacramento and Bakersfield, using an odd number as it approached San Francisco (which it never, of course, reached) and an even number as it moved away from San Francisco.
The Southern had two trains whose numbers changed because of a change in the operating direction (some trains changed from one operating direction to another but kept the same number, such as the Southerner ran south from Washington to Atlanta and then west from Atlanta to Birmingham, and south again to New Orleans, and did not need to change the number)
One of these trains came into the point of change with an odd number, and left with an even number; the other train came in with an even number and left with an odd number--no matter which origin or destination it had. What were these trains, and where did the number change? One point of change was a large city, and the other point was really not much more than a junction.
The Carolina Special 1-28 and 27-2 changed nuimbers at Oakdale TN.
The Skyland Special 10-25 and 24-9 changed numbers at Columbia SC
A quick response, Rob. During most of its life, the Carolina Special ran 27-28 all the way; it was only in its last days that it was combined with the Ponce de Leon. However, the junction was not at Oakdale; it carried the same number on both sides of Oakdale Until it became more economical to combine it north of Oakdale.
I did not think of the Skyland Special, but of another train. For many years, the Skyland Special also had a Charlotte-Jacksonville sleeper, which was carried all the way on 23 and 24. For a time, this sleeper ran between Greensboro and Jacksonville, going north from Charlotte on one route and south from Greensboro on another route.
SO, I count you as being a quarter of the way through.
I'll revise the Carolina Special. In 1957 it was 27-28 in both directions, changing numbers at Harriman Jct. TN (4.7 miles from Oakdale...)
I'm betting the other one you're thinking of is the Kansas City-Florida Special which ran as 8-7 in both directions, changing numbers in Atlanta.
Aha! you have the found the trains and the points at which the number changed! In its last days, the Skyland Special was a strictly Asheville-Jacksonville train, but I with my mother and brothers rode it from Jacksonville to Rock Hill, S.C., in January of 1938. I think we changed coaches in Columbia ( I was only two years old), and I never asked any of my brothers or my mother if we did make the change.
My first trip through Harriman Junction was occasioned by a freight wreck at Riceville (between Knoxville and Ooltewah) in the summer of 1957; the northbound Birmingham Special was detoured on the CNO&TP, with the pilot crew leaving at Oakdale, whereupon we backed to Oakdale Junction so we could proceed to Knoxville. The regular crew may have been qualified between Oakdale and Knoxville. We were delayed about an hour by the detour, and I started walking out to my college--and was picked up by two policemen who wanted to know what I was doing on the street about four in the morning. I explained, and they gave me a ride on out. I discovered then that someone riding in the back seat of a police car is unable to open the door.
On this international route trains ran (by the employee timetables) eastward, southward, southward(inward) and westward (with some trains continuing westward). In the other direction it was eastward, northward (outward), northward and westward. Railroads, junction points, and where inward and outward pointed to and from.
The Washingtonian - Montrealer, and Ambassador NY Section route.
CN Eastward to Rouses Point. CV Southward to White River Junction, B&M Southward and Inward to Spirngfield, New Haven Wesward to New York, The Washingtohian, but not the Ambassador, PRR Westeard to Washington. The Montrealer and the reverse Ambassador were the reverse moves.
But note that the Ambassador only reversed direction again the NYC (but not the NYNH&H) employees' timetables between Woodlawn and GCT!
Dave is correct, except for the CN/CV transition (St Johns Quebec, later Cantic Quebec). Good catch on the NYC direction. So where were the trains Inward and Outward to and from (the trains didn't go there...)
Boston, of course, and there was a section of the Ambassador that did go to Boston, but not the Montrealler - ngWashingtonian.
MY question, staying in New England, and returning to streetcars:
During and after WWII, (nearly) all Boston trolley cars, either ran into the Subway, what is now the Green Line, to "go downtown" or conencted with a rapid transit station, including Lechemere as a rapid transit station, with two purely surface lines having conversion to trolleycoach postponed, temrinating there.
But there was one exception which had an alternate route that could be counted as a second line. This exception did go "downtown" but did not use the subway. Name the end points. You need not know about the alternate routing, which was pretty obscure, part time, and ended shortly after WWII.
One end point actually had two alternative terminals, close to each other, using the same destination sign, one used mostly for daytime summerting good weather service.
There was also another exception to the general rule, that did not go downtown or connect with any rapid transit station, but if you don't know it, will reserve it for another question.
Hint: This line always used double-end cars and never used PCC's. Type 5's were normal during the period, although 4's may have been used on a few occasions.
Another hint. At the end of the line that had two alternative loop arrangements, two other trolley routes used the same terminal, same destination sign indication, and both at times used PCC's. All three routes are bus today. One of the bus routes that once used PCC's should definitely been kept as rail for a very good reason.
Another hint: The other end of the line connected (not physically) to important rail faciilties but no trolley line during WWII or after.
Ilt was the downtown end of the line that connected, but not physically, to important rail facilites. I was wrong about Type 4 cars ever being used on the line, becuse they were too heavy for a bridge located near the dowtown terminal. So it was always Type 5's after they replaced the small 35-foot wood cars that replaced the single-truck cars. There was also an important military establishment along the line, and it still is along the replacement bus route. The destination sign for all three lines serving the outer terminal had two words. The other two lines were PCC's and Type 4's. The PCC''s on these two lines came after WWII and were different than those that came earlier and could not mu with them (or with each other initially). The line that should have been kept had full-time PCC service, the other only durng off-peak and weekends..
I think one of the lines you're looking for was "City Point and South Station". There were a bunch of lines ending at City Point.
That is the line the line and the only line for answering the first question. South Station is certainly downtown, and sometime around 1940, the double-track sub terminal at South Station, remnant of tracks that reached further downtown, was replaced by a single stub track with locading islands on each side for protected egress and entrandce in the middle of Sumner Street direclty in front of the main South Station entrancr. In addition to long distance and commuter trains, there is a Cambridge - Dorchestra Tunnel, now Red Line, subway station at that entrance. The regular route of service was directly out Sumner Street to City Point, and the main loop was adjacent to or at other times around the carhouse. But in the summer, another loop with layover sidieng was used at the City Point beach. The alternate route used the tracks of the Broadway way line, the City Point - North Station via subway line to a point over the canal and then turned north on Dorchester Avenue back to Sumner St. The Dorchester Avenue tracks were abandonded about 1948.
Woud you like to ask the next question or try to answer the other line question, the one that neither went downtown or directly connected with rapid transit?
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