Doing research for a small classic 19th/early 20th century style depot to provide inspiration for a freelance structure I'm designing for my Lionel layout, I came across this photo.
Depicted is the Leipsic Junction of the Nickel Plate Road and the Cincinnati, Hamilton and Dayton in Putnam county Ohio.
https://www.west2k.com/ohpix/leipsicjunctionold.jpg
The mother website is Ohio Railroad Stations Past and Present.
I assume it has something to do with the control of the diamond. But it also bears traces of the old highball signals.
Any info would be greatly appreciated as I'm trying to decide whether I want to model a signal of this type. Of course I could be way off and maybe it's a birdhouse for carrier pigeons
Same me, different spelling!
It's a stop signal for the crossing. The angled frame swings across the track and the target at the top follows the pole's turn, so when the angled frame is across the track the light, when lit as the "night signal", faces the oncoming train. If you look carefully at the bottom photo the gate is actually in the middle of the track running across the photos. The iron rod appears to be used to push the "gate" around.
The semaphores next to the station are train order signals, which indicate that form 19 orders are to be picked up. 45 degrees would indicate form 31 orders, and vertical would indicate no orders. Form 31 orders contain information about train movements, but not any that would compromise safety if missed.
But where would the pivot point be? I can't make out anything in either photo that shows how the assembly is mounted. And the ladder appears to be how the lamp is lighted, so I would think that (and the type of locomotive on the track) would indicate oil rather than electricity?
The white pole on the platform corner (which kind of disappears into the background) is the pivot, with the signal supported by the triangular assembly. The picket fence thing (and the lamp) face the oncoming train in the stop position. The signal/gate could just as easily swing out in front of the locomotive next to the depot.
The ladder is nowhere near long enough to reach the signal's top bar from where it is on the platform.
Note also the "butterfly" train order signal on the corner of the depot near the locomotive. It serves the same purpose as the double semaphores, but can only display two indications - no orders when parallel to the track, and "19" orders in its position in both photos, unless it's fixed in that position, in which case all trains have to stop and sign a "clearance card" (form A in most rulebooks).
rcdrye... The semaphores next to the station are train order signals, which indicate that form 19 orders are to be picked up. 45 degrees would indicate form 31 orders, and vertical would indicate no orders. Form 31 orders contain information about train movements, but not any that would compromise safety if missed.
I would feature that the Train Order signal blades being horizontal would indicate 'STOP to pick up the 31 order'. 31 Orders normally restrict a train AT or very close to the location where the order is given to the train. Under some rule books I have seen the person recieving the order has to sign a Register for it. 45 degree would present an indication to pick up orders 'on the fly' Form 19 orders. Vertical indicate no orders.
Most of the 31 orders I copied when I was a Train Order Operator were at towers on Current of Traffic multiple track territory to allow a train 'right over opposing trains' against the current of traffic signaled track. On the B&O it was West on #1 and East on #2 for signal inidcations. East on #1 and West on #2 required 'Right Over' train orders.
In my experience on the B&O 19 orders were written on green flimsy paper; 31 orders were written on yellow flimsy paper. On the B&O double sided carbons were used when copying train orders. The most copies that could be made in one writing was 13. On the B&O opertors were instructed by the Train Dispatcher to 'Copy 3' for a single freight train and 'Copy 4' for a passenger train. Engineer and Conductor got copies for both types of train, the Baggageman got a copy on passenger trains. The office retained one copy for the office file.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
This is why I love railroading. There's always something new to learn!
BaltACDTrain Order... the Baggageman got a copy on passenger trains.
OK, got to ask why would the Baggageman get a copy?
MidlandMike BaltACD Train Order... the Baggageman got a copy on passenger trains. OK, got to ask why would the Baggageman get a copy?
BaltACD Train Order... the Baggageman got a copy on passenger trains.
Specifically I don't know. I can only surmise that he was condsidered to be knowledgeable on the physical characteristics of the territory and would act as a third set of eyes and brain power in seeing that the train complied with what the train orders would command. Baggageman has access to the Emergency brakes as does the Conductor. I don't know what craft protected the Baggageman position - I suspect it was from the trainman/conductor's craft.
The answer seems to me to give him information to plan his work. Have an idea when to have boxes and luggage close to the door for quick unloading and have clear space slose to the door for quick loading. If there was an RPO on the train, he also gave the information to the POC.
I dug out my old pre-NORAC B&M rulebook. It turns out some railroads (like B&M, which had its own rulebook) used form 19, but not form 31. But then again, B&M used ball signals into the 1980s... The 1974 rulebook still called out the use of train order signals.
daveklepperThe answer seems to me to give him information to plan his work. Have an idea when to have boxes and luggage close to the door for quick unloading and have clear space slose to the door for quick loading. If there was an RPO on the train, he also gave the information to the POC.
Worked the Agent/Operators position at Salem, IL wiht a start time for the job was 2230. The Eastbound #12 was due around Midnight. Upon arriving at the station the freight room had to be checked for whatever mail bags USPS had deposited for furtherance on the RPO's on #11 and #12. Normally it was only a couple of bags for each train, however, there was a hunting magazine that was published and printed locally and when that happened there would be several hundred 'pigs' to be sorted (pig is a small, but heavy, mail bag for the magazines). When it was a magazine night, it took most every minute to get the pigs sorted and loaded on the baggage cart to be ready for the arrival of #12. Very few people showed up to buy tickets for passage, but that was also a duty of the job. The Westbound #11 was scheduled around 0600. Another duty of the job was to physically check the interchange track between the M&I (Missouri & Illinois - a UP subsidary) to verify if the cars had been interchanged before or after Midnight - a few years later, per diem began to be calculated on a hourly basis rather than the daily basis at Midnight.
The hardest part of handling 'baggage' was when Military remains from the Vietnam War were recieved off the baggage car and transferred to one of the local funeral homes who had been notified of the shipment schedule for the remains and would be on hand to accept the remains.
It was a way of railroading that would not live to see the 21st Century.
rcdrye I dug out my old pre-NORAC B&M rulebook. It turns out some railroads (like B&M, which had its own rulebook) used form 19, but not form 31. But then again, B&M used ball signals into the 1980s... The 1974 rulebook still called out the use of train order signals.
The first General Code of Operating Rules in 1985 still had rules for movements using time table and train orders. The second edition in 1989 no longer had them.
GCOR only had a "train order" form, no form 19 or form 31 blanks. Some railroads by then no longer used 19 or 31 blanks. There were those still using the form 19 but not the form 31. In the few instances where a signature was required before making complete an order, the signatures were just signed on the form 19 order.
The form 31, which had places for the engineer and/or conductor to sign the order, gradually fell out of favor as rules changed that signatures weren't required on train orders that restricted the rights of superior trains in most cases. They no longer had to stop a train and obtain signatures. They could deliver those orders on the fly.
Looking at a couple rule books from the end of TT&TO operation, the only times signatures were required was when restricting or annulling a work extra, before an operator could copy a train order restricting a train when the engine had already passed the train order signal in the proceed, no orders position or when train orders and clearance had already been delivered to the engine.
Jeff
Got another one for you. This is from the Nickel Plate collection of the Cleveland Memory Project. I believe the sign says "Look, listen".
https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/nickel/id/0/rec/65
Hopefully this link goes where I want it to
Other side of the street.
https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/nickel/id/15/
Looking west.
https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/nickel/id/14/
This is the only place I'm seeing these.
Those are classic "wig-wag" crossing signals. The red light is in the stored position behind the "stop listen" sign. When activated the light would swing out and back, flashing on some types, solid red on others. These were also known as "automatic flagmen".
I think they were more common in the west - SP used them until the 1970s at least.
pennytrainsThis is from the Nickel Plate collection of the Cleveland Memory Project.
Aah, Bliss — Road that is. This is my old stomping ground. It is E.222nd. St today, of course. I put almost 40 years in at the GE Tungsten plant (the site is labeled 'Steel Car Co.' on the print. Tungsten Road, off E. 222nd wasn't put in until 1938 or so. I lived on a side street off E. 222 for a while.
NKP Bliss Rd Euclid by Edmund, on Flickr
This is part of one page from the Nickel Plate Industrial Development department from the late 1930s. No date on the print but GE didn't buy the property until 1931.
An underpass was built eliminating the crossing in early 1950. I'm sure the property in the 'South View' is the Euclid Grape & Canning Co. In the view looking north you would see the huge wind turbine of The Lincoln Electric Co.
Cheers, Ed
I assumed it was some kind of early wig wag but I couldn't discern it's operation. Thanks!
By the way, in all the photos in the collection, which show just about everything along the Nickel Plate right of way through Cleveland circa 1922, this was the only grade crossing with this type of signal. I wonder if it was installed by G.E. as a test?
From what I can find the design dates to the teens, originally on Pacific Electric and parent Southern Pacific. The NKP ones are a variant of the "upper quadrant" design made by Magnetic Signal until after WWII. There are only a handful that remain in service, some at museums.
Union Switch and Signal apparently built quite a few. The NKP version seems more like a US&S model from the photo.
Also interesting is the "Stop Listen" sign. Crossing labelling wasn't standardized nationally until well after World War II.
I never knew E.222nd had a previous name! And those are interesting signals.
I worked two summers ('68 & '69) at American MonoRail on Chardon Road just the other side of Tungsten. I enjoyed crossing the NKP tracks twice daily and seeing the "action" at the small yard there.
Would anyone know the number (milepost) of the eastbound signal of the NKP between Northfield & Strathmore Avenues?
I like the name "Union Switch & Signal." It rolls off the tongue as easily as another name from Cleveland history: "Cleveland Frog & Crossing."
NKP guyWould anyone know the number (milepost) of the eastbound signal of the NKP between Northfield & Strathmore Avenues?
The signal doesn't show on my track diagram but you should be able to measure the distance from the bridge numbers.
NKP Shaw Ave MP 176 by Edmund, on Flickr
East 260th St. was formerly Upson Road.
CUT Cleveland Frog & Crossing by Edmund, on Flickr
Good Luck, Ed
Thanks very much Ed, I've copied the diagram as well as the advert. It almost brought a tear to the eye. A fine old company which I often saw from the car window as we drove by. Wasn't all that trackwork & catenary at CUT a sight to behold?
Also, the signals the NKP used looked to me to be identical to the ones used on the Shaker Heights Rapid Transit Lines. Were they? After all, both were Van Sweringen roads and the work was done at the same time.
I don't have time to check this -- but wasn't that kind of signal developed by someone connected with the New York Central, and one of the more advanced tpes prior to Holley Rudd's in the early '30s (that became the canonical 'railroad crossing signal' by my childhood in the late '50s/early '60s)? I read a thread about this somewhere, but can't remember the details.
https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/cut/id/4439/rec/48
https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/cut/id/4438/rec/15
Inside and out of a CUT dwarf.
Fast forward to today. Leipsic Junction is a pretty important station on the NS (ex NKP). Protec Industries receives a daily shipment of coil cars from US Steel (Gary, In) with the typical delivery to be 40 plus cars, often as many as 80.
Also located there is Poet, an ethanol or biofuel plant.
Big time railroading with the NS ex NKP Ft Wayne - Belleview line and the CSX ex B&O Cincinnati to Toledo mainline.
Ed
pennytrainshttps://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/cut/id/4439/rec/48 https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/cut/id/4438/rec/15 Inside and out of a CUT dwarf.
Going into the Union Terminal area at night (via rapid transit) from either east or west was a delight to the eye, thanks to the CUT's dwarf signals and the others. To a young railfan it looked magical.
Still does to me, I was just through the west end 2 weeks ago. Coming from West 25th onto the viaduct under the original CUT catenary masts is always special.
In better days...
NYC_4067_7500 by Edmund, on Flickr
CUT_GRS2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Thanks, Ed for a great trip down memory lane. I used the links to view your CUT collection--and happily lost part of this morning!
Imagine a day in 1952, watching CUT electrics using the viaduct, CTS 4000's on the High Level Bridge, and SHRT 1200's & PCC's underneath the Hotel Cleveland. A tractionfest, so to speak.
Followed by lunch at Fred Harvey's.
https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/brookins/id/239/rec/280
Would have liked to have seen the AERA convention.
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