Hello all,
I have an impression that the commuter train usually had much simpler facilities than long-distance train in the past. Was there any steam-powered commuter train provided extraordinary service and facility which the level of luxury was comparable to long-distance named train in North America?Thanks!
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
The only thing close to a luxury commuter train I can think of here in the US during the steam era would have been the Reading's "Crusader," a high-speed 90 minute Philadelphia to New York train originating in the 1930's.
It may be a stretch to call it a "commuter" train, but it certainly was possible to commute from Philly to NYC on the "Crusader" if you wanted to. Some did.
By comparison, if you wanted to drive from Philly to NYC in those pre-New Jersey Turnpike days the trip would have taken five hours!
Here's a video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf3kWZFSniM
Show the inaugural run of the train, it hasn't even been named yet, and some great interior shots.
And here's a good brief history of the train...
https://www.classicstreamliners.com/npt-crusader.html
The Reading Budd-built Crusader was used by Jenkintown, PA, and West Trenton, NJ commuters, on its Reading Terminal, Philadelphia, - Jersey \City run. All the amenities one would expect in a Budd-built streamliner. The Wall Street, with rebuilt coaches, was almost as fine, but with a non-streamlined 4-6-2, some built after WWII.
The Cruader Budd equipment went to the CN when the run on the Reading and CNJ went to Budd RDC cars, after having been run for a few years behind Reading FP7s. CN used it Montreal - Toronto as the Chalieur. Today?
I see David and I are in agreement! I'm flattered!
You guys are in the wrong era. The Flying Dude was likely a higher level of service (and more explicitly suiting Jones' requirement for the 'best' of contemporary longer-distance amenities) back in the days before income tax and the like.
My understanding was that instead of whole trains the usual US-American practice was to provide particular cars, often private cars with membership by 'subscription', that a railroad would haul and presumably 'yard' and arrange for service, on a contract basis. I heard that memberships on some of these things were passed from father to son as treasured things.
This died in the great era of mass subsidization of commuter service after the near-death experiences of a number of operations, particularly in the East, in the late '50s and early '60s. Some upgraded with equipment that was incompatible with the older club cars; some were 'egalitarian' in rejecting special privilege on trains paid for presumably by the 'common man'. The last special amenities I remember were bar cars (some of which were specifically installed in new "90mph" transit cars to accommodate the private-society people whose cars had been displaced), the last of which was only very recently discontinued (I think in the same wretched do-gooding spirit that has abolished large Cokes in New York - we can't have government abetting demon alcohol, can we? - but in part because the 'new' cars themselves, together with their then clientele, are on their way out.)
Capital cost has basically eliminated most of a group's ability to buy, equip, and run a whole modern 'transit' car, even if it were feasible in modern operating practice to dedicate it or the consist including it to operation at the particular regular time the 'club' operation would likely require. There is also a growing limitation on the perceived utility of Lucullan service levels in the mornings, where breakfast prep skill is less appreciated and alcohol definitely less utile. The final nail in the coffin (in the New York regions, at least) is congestion leading to maxed-out track capacity -- no one sane would operate a 30-passenger private club car in place of the equivalent in full seating, even if some cabal of oligarchs were willing to cough up thousands a day in objective profit to NJT or MN to try. About the only obvious alternative (and I keep 'watching this space') is service out to the Hamptons and Montauk, where a high-speed luxury service east of, say, Jamaica could be fed by several sources of traffic and constitute a clear advantage over even an 'enhanced' Hanpton Jitney at heavy LIE times... without recourse to operation on pure electric power into the bowels of Manhattan directly. But we didn't see it in the go-go wild days of the 80s, we don't see it today, and there's likely ever more inertia building up against either starting or perpetuating such service looking forward...
The Crusader is certainly the best example of a “luxury” commuter train, but I would like to note the fact that Steam was used for a short time on CNW commutes out of Chicago paired with Modern Galley Cars! That may not be luxury but it was pretty modern for steam to be used!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
Now if we are going to take up that greatest of the Clocker competitors the Crusader and Wall Street(er) as commuter trains, we should also pick up on the use of 'Delta Eagle' style accommodation trains like the LV John Wilkes from the A-B-E area east. THAT train ran straight into Penn, and when optimized for longest shopping day in NYC would overlap with other reasons to do business in Gotham, some on a 'commuter' basis not strictly timed to well-before-9am arrival.
Does any current train service between Philly and NYCity beat that 90 minute tine?
One thing is for sure and that is you sure as heck couldn't name it The Crusader these days.
According to Flintlocks link 2 of the observation cars are preserved.
Overmod got so busy with his "Flying Dude" post he forgot to tell us what the "Flying Dude" was. No, it wasn't Chuck Lindbergh. Or Wiley Post.
I can fix that. Here 'ya go buddy...
www.mvmagazine.com/news/2017/07/01/riding-dude
And if any of the patrons missed the train, I wonder if they carried on like these two dudes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLsUo6seUss
Per Vince's question about current train travel times between Philly and NYC, according to "tripsavvy" Amtrak's Acela does it in just over an hour, regular Amtrak trains in about 90 minutes. Same as the "Crusader."
Assuming nothing goes worng of course.
The Crusader was never scheduled NY to Philadelphia in 90 minutes.
So -- how to define "commute train"? Did LIRR's Sunrise Special count, with its parlor cars? Did PRR's Clockers count, with their parlor cars? If not, why not? Riders could use commute tickets (monthlies) on the Clockers -- dunno if there were parlor car monthlies, tho.
timz The Crusader was never scheduled NY to Philadelphia in 90 minutes. So -- how to define "commute train"? Did LIRR's Sunrise Special count, with its parlor cars? Did PRR's Clockers count, with their parlor cars? If not, why not? Riders could use commute tickets (monthlies) on the Clockers -- dunno if there were parlor car monthlies, tho.
Well, I got the 90 minute time from the "Classic Streamliners" site I linked. If it's wrong, it's wrong, I have no way of knowing otherwise. I wasn't around back then.
Did the trains you mentioned count as "luxury commuters" since they had parlor cars? Why ever not?
MiningmanDoes any current train service between Philly and NYCity beat that 90 minute time?
Lots of them do, and the ones that don't only don't because of making lots of stops. Even in the '80s the plain commuter Silverliners, far from new, routinely got over 100mph between local stations in the New Brunswick area. The Reading through West Trenton was not that kind of fast anywhere, although I hoped as a kid that the RDC trains actually got up that fast (they peaked at only around 80mph, which might have been signal related).
The '90 minutes' was probably the time from Reading Terminal to C'paw. And I suspect it was routinely faster to actual Wall Street from there via ferry than from Penn Station. After the Aldene Plan the time ballooned to almost 2 hours, and left you in Newark much further from the financial district anywhere.
Then some other 'knightly' reference less Islamophobic, out of the over 6000 contest entries that were received. The train was an early Budd follow-in to earlier Reading experiments with Shotwelded stainless, and the advertising boast/line was "Clad in Shining Armor" (whether or not that was ginned up after the choice of the name, I don't know, but it was sure effective).
That's pronounced 'both of them'; the Crusader famously had an obs on each end, the antithesis of an Eggliner, to make turning the train itself unnecessary at either endpoint. (Incidentally there was an extended skirt on the end of the tender streamlining to 'hide' the leading obs end, which seems a little counterproductive for railfan interest!)
Another knightly reference less Islamophobic? Hmmmm...
Instead of a generic term, how about an individual, like Jean Parisot de La Valette?
If someone wants to be offended let them do the research. Why make it easy?
Flintlock76 Another knightly reference less Islamophobic? Hmmmm .... if someone wants to be offended let them do the research. Why make it easy?
Another knightly reference less Islamophobic? Hmmmm .... if someone wants to be offended let them do the research. Why make it easy?
The answer would have been simple: check the first runner-up in the contest. If that turned out to be contentious, too (say, Richard the Lion-Hearted) go to the next best, and so on. Even with the inevitable duplicates and weird thinking like 'The Chrysler Building of the Rails', there's sure to be something in those over 6000 remaining entries.
All these items from Mike by the way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhbjNa8W6qs Lily Pons
(I don't know about you guys but I find it most excruciating to listen to, perhaps it's better live than in a recording, like jazz is, at least for me...Vince)
And more on The Dude from Mike
Overmod The Flying Dude
The Flying Dude
I approve of this thread
If Mr. Jones had not specified "steam-powered" I would have nominated the Electroliners for best commuter service.
And while they were not strictly commuter trains, several of the New Haven's parlour car schedules could have been used by commuters much like the Crusader, and they were very high quality indeed.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Oh boy, that Lily Pons link was not the best example of her work.
Try this one. Ever hear the phrase "It's not over 'till the fat lady sings?" NOT in this case gentlemen!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZjwRN6v9bE
Great, just great. Now I've got a crush on a dead woman.
The "Electroliner" may not have been steam powered, but it had something no steam powered commuter train had, the "Electro-Burger!"
They were supposed to be darn good too, worth the price of the fare to get one!
The "Electroliners" hardly qualified as part of a commuter service since they skipped most of the stations south of Waukegan, the orientation was to end-to-end passengers. Besides, "luxury commuter service" strikes me as an oxymoron.
Not really a commuter train, C&NW's Milwaukee-Chicago "Commuter 400" sported a parlor car from time to time.
PRR's "Clockers" were almost-but-not-quite commuter trains (with some parlor cars) at a similar distance.
LIRR's various expresses to Montauk might also qualify.
A year ago we talked about Lily Pons, British and Italian cars. Actually good reading!
http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/145501.aspx?pi386=179&page=208
More on Lily:
Kind of interesting fact is that she had a pet Ocelot named Ita that had a habit of threatening visitors. "Bad Ita, Mr. Fonda is not a chew toy".
Thank you, everyone, for your participation. What an eye-opening thread for me. From The Crusader to Richard the Lionheart, the Electro-Burger to the Nightingale of the century, such a high-quality discussion which can only be found on the Trains Magazine forum. My favorite version of "The Bell Song" is sung by Gruberova in the 1980s, (not in her 70s!No!) I remember every single note of that song... I don't have a chance to listen to the live performance of Lily Pons but she is definitely a legend.
Well Mr. Jones, the "Classic Trains" Forum does attract exceptional people!
Overmod That's pronounced 'both of them'; the Crusader famously had an obs on each end, the antithesis of an Eggliner, to make turning the train itself unnecessary at either endpoint. (Incidentally there was an extended skirt on the end of the tender streamlining to 'hide' the leading obs end, which seems a little counterproductive for railfan interest!)
That extended skirt on the tender was probably one of the most unique features of The Crusader. The extension skirt covered not only both sides of the front end of the observation car behind it but also the roof of it.
There were not many railroads cared about the consistency between the streamlined engine, tender, and passenger cars; not even The Empire State Express of NYCRR had this kind of attention. The Coronation Class of L.M.S in the UK had a similar design on their tenders, but the cars behind them were not streamlined.
http://www.railalbum.co.uk/
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