City of San Francisco C&NW/UP/SP power paint scheme question

[De Luxe]

Hello,

I have a question about the power of the City of San Francisco passenger train. I know that this was an UP owned train, so it seems logical for me that the train´s cars were all painted into the UP yellow/grey scheme. But that train also ran over the C&NW from Chicago to Omaha, and on the SP from Ogden to Oakland. When I see earlier pictures of that train no matter on which location along the route, the locomotives are always painted into the UP yellow/grey scheme, and also sport the logos of all three carriers (C&NW, UP and SP) plus the train name along the locomotive sides. I think the last engines where I saw that are EMD E6 Units. But when I see later pictures of that train (maybe in the 50ies), there are no more matching yellow/grey locomotives that pull the train all the way through. The paint scheme varies from road to road. On the C&NW they sport their own paint scheme (yellow/green) and on the SP too (mostly Daylight). So this is my question: Why and which year the practice of having matching yellow/grey locomotives on all portions of the run and on every road for that train was dropped? I mean this really had some inpact on the trains overall appereance. In my eyes it didn´t by far look that elegant than with matching locos that are painted in the same scheme as the cars, so that the whole train has the same color from the loco´s pilot to observation end for the entire run.

 

[Deggesty]

De Luxe

Hello,

I have a question about the power of the City of San Francisco passenger train. I know that this was an UP owned train, so it seems logical for me that the train´s cars were all painted into the UP yellow/grey scheme. But that train also ran over the C&NW from Chicago to Omaha, and on the SP from Ogden to Oakland. When I see earlier pictures of that train no matter on which location along the route, the locomotives are always painted into the UP yellow/grey scheme, and also sport the logos of all three carriers (C&NW, UP and SP) plus the train name along the locomotive sides. I think the last engines where I saw that are EMD E6 Units. But when I see later pictures of that train (maybe in the 50ies), there are no more matching yellow/grey locomotives that pull the train all the way through. The paint scheme varies from road to road. On the C&NW they sport their own paint scheme (yellow/green) and on the SP too (mostly Daylight). So this is my question: Why and which year the practice of having matching yellow/grey locomotives on all portions of the run and on every road for that train was dropped? I mean this really had some inpact on the trains overall appereance. In my eyes it didn´t by far look that elegant than with matching locos that are painted in the same scheme as the cars, so that the whole train has the same color from the loco´s pilot to observation end for the entire run.

 

Originally, the E2 locomotives that were operated on the City of San Francisco and the City of Los Angeles were owned jointly, and so had the heralds (there was no so such thing as a "logo" seventy-two years ago) of the roads over which they operated. Since there was only one set (LA1-2-3 and SC1-2-3, originally) for each schedule, this arrangement worked well. It may be that when the trains became daily that the joint ownership was terminated. SF-1 went to the SP, and LA-1 went to the C&NW. UP kept all the E2B units, and they were rebuilt to E8's in 1953. SF1 became an E7, and LA1 was run as an E2A (C&NW 5003A)  until she was scrapped. They were all renumbered in 1946 to 901A, 902B, 903B and 921A, 922A, and 923B, and again, in 1948 to 983J, 983BJ, 983CJ, and 984J, 984BJ, and 984CJ.

Yes, a train that is solid Armour Yellow and brown from front coupler to rear coupler was quite a sight.

Johnny

[timz]

It seems the joint ownership ended in Dec 1948. Various pictures show CNW and MILW units on the UP in the 1950s, but I've never seen an SP red/orange diesel east of Ogden.

Of the jointly-owned units, SP got one E2A and two E7Bs-- that set may have run on the CoSF for a year or two after they were all painted red/orange. After 1950, probably nothing but red/orange PAs west of Ogden.

[De Luxe]

Thanks for the answers!

So the fact that the trains became daily in 1948 (and therefore the joint ownership was dropped) was the reason for dropping the matching colors from head to tail. Really interesting.

But do you guys agree with me then that the train looked better before 1949? I think starting in 1950 or so they also started removing the skirts of the cars, another sign that total streamlining wasn´t "in" anymore in the 50ies...

By the way: did this train ever have regular steam helpers over Sheman, Wasatch and Donner Pass? If so, what kind of UP/SP steam? What was the last year of steam (helper) operation on this train on the Up and SP?

 

[aricat]

In November of 1955 the Milwaukee Road began operating the City of San Francisco and other City UP trains east of Omaha. Milwaukee also shortly after began to paint all of their passenger units and coaches in yellow.Milwaukee claimed that it would be wear better than orange.Milwaukee power was changed to UP at Omaha and remained that way until Amtrak. In Ogden Utah there was a 45 minute layover and UP did change power and crews.

[timz]

City of SF went daily in 9/47; I think the CoLA was daily before that, and maybe the CoP too.

There are pics of steam helping 101 up Sherman Hill, but no idea how "regular" that was. The Trains We Rode has a pic of 102 behind a 2-10-2 at Dutch Flat in the Sierra, and one or two other pics show helpers at Roseville. No pics of 101, which climbed the Sierra at night. Don't recall any pics of steam on 102 up to Wahsatch.

[Deggesty]

timz

City of SF went daily in 9/47; I think the CoLA was daily before that, and maybe the CoP too.

Car Names Numbers and Consists (Robert J. Wayner, Ed.) tells us, on p. 158, that in 1947, all three trains were assigned sufficient cars so they were operated daily--the C o P in February, the C o LA in May, and the C o SF in September. Since the UP did not yet have enough new light-weight cars to accomplish this, older cars that had been operated on lesser trains were repainted with Armour Yellow and gray, and some were lettered for the train that they ran in. An aside--I have learned from another source that in 1966 I rode in an upper, from North Cairo to Birmingham on the Seminole, in one of the cars (American Sailor, a 6 section, 6 roomette, 4 double bedroom car--which had upper berth windows) that was on the City of Portland's first daily trip from Chicago.

Johnny

[twhite]

De Luxe

Thanks for the answers!

By the way: did this train ever have regular steam helpers over Sheman, Wasatch and Donner Pass? If so, what kind of UP/SP steam? What was the last year of steam (helper) operation on this train on the Up and SP?

 

In the video series SOUTHERN PACIFIC STEAM Vol 1, there is film of the COSF being helped east over the Sierra from Roseville by an SP MT-series Mountain (which probably turned at Norden).  This is the early COSF with the E-2 A-B-B diesel units.

There are also photos existing of the train being helped by 2-10-2's and 4-8-8-2's on the eastbound journey.  Westbound over Donner Pass, helpers were usually added at Truckee and then dropped at Norden, some 18 miles to the west.  Most of the Truckee helpers were 4-8-8-2 cab-forwards, though occasionally other wheel arrangements (2-10-2, 4-8-2) could be stationed there at any given time.

I have no idea as to whether or not steam helpers were used over the Wasatch or Sherman Hill, as these were much easier grades than the Sierra Nevada.   

Tom  

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

I vividly remember watching the "Cities" trains on the MILW at Marion, Iowa throughout the 60's and also remember seeing MILW power more and more common as the decade progressed.  Didn't MILW units commonly make it out to L.A., the Bay Area, and Portland not to mention Denver? 

[timz]

Maybe LA and Portland for all I know, but neither CNW nor MILW nor UP units ran west of Ogden on the SP after 1948 or so.

[twhite]

Timz: 

VERY odd thing, at least IMO.  When SP bought the COSF E-2 A unit, they painted it in "Daylight" colors, but for some strange reason kept the original tri-rail CNW/UP/SP medallion on the front.   I have a photo of it heading the COSF between Auburn and Newcastle in the very early 1950's, but hoo boy, is that paint scheme an eye-popper on that 'bubble-nose' E-2, LOL!   Really interesting. 

Tom

[timz]

twhite

they painted it in "Daylight" colors, but for some strange reason kept the original tri-rail CNW/UP/SP medallion on the front.   I have a photo of it heading the COSF between Auburn and Newcastle in the very early 1950's

That's a puzzle, all right. The pics in Signor (p182) and Matthews Vol II (p112) seem to show just SP-- ditto a couple pics in Strapac SPHD Vol 3. They all claim to be from 1949 or so.

[espeefoamer]

 Southern Pacific had some yellow coaches very late. I saw a SP yellow coach in San Francisco in September 1970. I also saw a SP yellow coach  in Amtrak service on a San Diegan in 1972.