daveklepperA question. Original LIRR DC MP-54s had cleristories. But after about ten years later all new LIRR MP-54s and P54 steam-hauled, had high arch roofs. But combines were exceptions, new ones had cleristories. Both MU and steam-hauled. And the new AC PRR MP-54s, starting with the first Philadelhia-aria suburban electrification, all had cleristories. Why the differences?
Maybe th LIRR wanted to save money. Also they wouldn't have the worry that a low wire would snag roof vents.
On the NYC, were the (non-EMU) arch roof cars of the Putnam unique to that Division?
They were identical in every respect to those in Boston South Station Boston and Albany service, except for the New York Central, instead of Boston and Albany, lettering.
Interestingly, Illinois Central's original MU cars, both power cars and trailers, had clerestory roofs but South Shore's Insull-era MU's, which had the same clearances but shorter length (61') had arch roofs.
daveklepper They were identical in every respect to those in Boston South Station Boston and Albany service, except for the New York Central, instead of Boston and Albany, lettering.
I know some of the B&A locos migrated to the Harlem Division. I wonder if the Putnam cars also migrated from Boston.
CIWL dining car, pre-WW I (France)
Passenger car, Denmark 1921
Prussian (German) passenger car, built circa 1910
Queen Victoria's Saloon Coach, Great Britain, 19th Century
Spanish passenger car model
Norwegian 1st Class car, built pre-WWII
These are just some examples. I still saw the occasional passenger car with clerestory roof running in Denmark back in the 1960'es.
Kai Willadsen
GeoPRRDave Klepper - Small correction - PRR 120 was built new in 1928 as an office car, class Z74d, and had six wheel trucks until rebuilt in 1953. At that time four wheel trucks (2F-P1) were applied, with very large journals (6 1/2 x 12).
I think Mr. Klepper may have gotten this car mixed up with another 120, the ex-"Chicagoan", which was built as an S70. Here is some information on the Pins/Levin 120 from Britton's pennsyrr site; it is not fully 'up to date' but contains information relevant to this issue:
Built at Altoona as part of 1927 program of six cars on February 23, 1928; un-named and assigned to V.P. Eysmans, based in Philadelphia. Named Pennsylvania on July 1, 1935. Ice-activated air-conditioning installed at Altoona on August 22, 1935 and reclassified Z74DR. Renamed Baltimore at West Philadelphia on September 7, 1939 and assigned to President W. F. Franklin, based in Philadelphia. On August 23, 1951, 2F-P1 trucks installed with Spicer drive. Renamed Pennsylvania in January 1952. As of January 28, 1952, assigned to President W. S. Franklin and based in Philadelphia. Modernized at Altoona on October 13, 1953, and assigned to President J. M. Symes, based in Philadelphia. Electro-mechanical air-conditioning installed; four staterooms replace three drawing rooms; fireplace removed; stainless steel kitchen installed; new sash installed, new lighting system installed; new furniture, drapes, covers and shades; and repainted. Circa February 1956, the berth at kitchen end of dining room was removed; space converted to storage locker. Circa February 1958, windshield wipers applied to lounge end windows. Sealed beam track lights installed on January 5, 1962. Transfered to Penn Central on February 1, 1968 and assigned to General Manager and based in Philadelphia. On March 1, 1968, renumbered to PC 13, since 35 MU cars (#100-134) were on order for the State of New Jersey. Carried body of Robert F. Kennedy from New York to Washington, D. C. in June 1968. At some point renumbered PC 9, painted drab green, and car name removed. Retired in 1971 and sold to George Pins; repainted Tuscan Red and relettered Pennsylvania. Sold to Burt Smith in 1979 and to Joel Mitchell in 1981. Sold to Bennett Levin, Juniata Terminal Co., in 1985. Operated on rear of last westbound run of the Broadway Limited over an all-PRR route in 1990. Operated on last eastbound run of the Broadway Limited in 1995. Continues to operate as Amtrak 800241.
Modernized at Altoona on October 13, 1953, and assigned to President J. M. Symes, based in Philadelphia. Electro-mechanical air-conditioning installed; four staterooms replace three drawing rooms; fireplace removed; stainless steel kitchen installed; new sash installed, new lighting system installed; new furniture, drapes, covers and shades; and repainted.
Circa February 1956, the berth at kitchen end of dining room was removed; space converted to storage locker. Circa February 1958, windshield wipers applied to lounge end windows. Sealed beam track lights installed on January 5, 1962. Transfered to Penn Central on February 1, 1968 and assigned to General Manager and based in Philadelphia. On March 1, 1968, renumbered to PC 13, since 35 MU cars (#100-134) were on order for the State of New Jersey.
Carried body of Robert F. Kennedy from New York to Washington, D. C. in June 1968.
At some point renumbered PC 9, painted drab green, and car name removed.
Retired in 1971 and sold to George Pins; repainted Tuscan Red and relettered Pennsylvania. Sold to Burt Smith in 1979 and to Joel Mitchell in 1981.
Sold to Bennett Levin, Juniata Terminal Co., in 1985. Operated on rear of last westbound run of the Broadway Limited over an all-PRR route in 1990. Operated on last eastbound run of the Broadway Limited in 1995. Continues to operate as Amtrak 800241.
daveklepper Passenger railcar construction in North America included clerestories almost immediately upon departure from stagecoach bodies on flanged wheels. Even single-truck horsecars had them. But thery were rare in Britain and Europe. Wagons-Lits sleepers had arched-roofs. Why the difference?
In the Victorian Period certain British railway companies such as the Midland Railway and Great Western Railway did operate a fairly large set of clerestory roofed carriages, as did the GNR and NER on a somewhat more curtailed basis, usually for observation or private saloons, although some coaches were built. Bluebell has saloon 43909, and the NRM has NER 1661 as far as saloons. Beamish has NER coach 818, and the NER Railcar is a clerestory deign. The GER built very few clerestory designs and to my knowledge none survive intacr. Surviving GWR examples including West Somerset's sleeping car No 9038, Didcots compartment coaches 1941 and 1357 and dining car 9520. A former composite 7091 survives offsite as does a post office car, 599 at St Germans. Up to the 1930s when arch roof streamlining came into style, GWR saloons nearly always had a clerestory, and 2 have been restored: 248/9044 and 249/9045. As for other European countries it is my understanding they were not as commonly used although some Scandanavian countries used them, such as the NSB in Norway. In some of Britian's Imperial holdings, such as South Africa, the clerestory roof was a staple. As for Pullmans and CIWL not having them, they usually had roof vents and opening toplight windows above the main window. British loading gauge is much smaller so having the vertical clearance for a clerestory is difficult. The GWR having in many places been built for broad gauge was able to have 13'5" locomotives even, as opposed to other roads where the loading gauge was normally around 13'. One former broad gauge the loading gauge was 15' and on routes built as standard, 13'6". As opposed to say Southern or SECR at 13'1". Clerestory roofs were tall. As for cooling, many British homes still do not have central air conditioning hence why trains did not start receiving it until the Mk2 Air Cons in the 1970s when the Manchester Pullman, the last set of British built Pullmans cars received it.
Jacob
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Maybe Europeans did not mind being hot and uncomfortable? Maybe they doubted the value of the technology? Maybe taking an idea from the "colonies" was beneath them? Come on, they still hook freight cars together with chains, over 100 years after the perfection of the automatic coupler? Yes, today I am the arrogant American......... Because I know so little about Euopean trains and fail to understand why they are so seemingly backward? Sheldon
Maybe Europeans did not mind being hot and uncomfortable?
Maybe they doubted the value of the technology?
Maybe taking an idea from the "colonies" was beneath them?
Come on, they still hook freight cars together with chains, over 100 years after the perfection of the automatic coupler?
Yes, today I am the arrogant American.........
Because I know so little about Euopean trains and fail to understand why they are so seemingly backward?
Sheldon
Hi,
Although I am not a railway engineer and as a common rail fan I am not an expert for European and German passenger coaches, I would like to contribute some information and thoughts. In case I am wrong, I ask for your indulgence.
Also in Germany and other European countries, there used to be many types of passenger coaches with clearstory. Also, other roof ventilation systems were used. Many of the coaches with clearstory were built in the 19th century. Modern passenger trains of today are equipped with AC.
This link leads you to pictures including many old German passenger coaches; the more modern ones are easy to recognize: Click!
There is still another difference you will notice: In Germany, the railroad companies were looking to save energy by reducing weight; the criterion for passenger cars was car mass per seat. At 1.0 tonnes per seat for a coach with bogies, this was about twice as much as for wagons with so-called steering axles at 0.5 tonnes per seat. For this reason, specially in the Southern German states and Saxony with their many mountain ranges, even express train coaches were not initially equipped with bogies. In the Northern states with predominantly flat land, bogies were therefore introduced earlier than in Southern Germany.
In addition, after the turn of the 19th century, more and more steel car bodies replaced wooden constructions everywhere.
In order to save weight and consequently energy, many 2-axle freight cars with steering axles are even today still being built. Passenger coaches on the other hand are generally built with bogies nowadays.
Not being a railroad engineer I can only say little about the coupling systems (center buffer with integrated coupling vs. side buffers and center screw couplings). I think that the railways in Europe are satisfied with their system, although it cannot be automated, which seems to me as a layman to be the main disadvantage. However, it will not be easily possible to convert European railway fleets from side buffers to center buffers, because the compression and impact forces of outside buffer wagons require wagon chassis with lateral beams, whereas center beams are required for center buffers. Also, it seems advantageous if a complete train over tensioned couplings and spring-loaded side buffers forms an elastic unit that stretches again after curves over the pressure of the buffers inside of the turn. Moreover, such a train as an elastic unit has an overall increased stability of its running characteristics. And finally, railway infrastructure in Europe wouldn't permit train lengths like in America, i.e. in common revenue service one couldn't make use of one of the main advantages which is the substantially higher tensile strength of the central buffer couplings. For special heavy duty purposes a few whole trains exist which are composed of freight cars built with centre couplers and appropriately equipped locomotives.
Greetings from Germany
Torsten
I've seen that Prussian railway car- its in a museum in Dresden and it is as finely restored as a vintage Mercedes. It was locked up and I couldn't go inside it, gosh dang it!
This interesting discussion will be usefully extended by reference to the definitive study which was published in 1985:
daveklepper A question. Original LIRR DC MP-54s had cleristories. But after about ten years later all new LIRR MP-54s and P54 steam-hauled, had high arch roofs. But combines were exceptions, new ones had cleristories. Both MU and steam-hauled. And the new AC PRR MP-54s, starting with the first Philadelhia-aria suburban electrification, all had cleristories. Why the differences?
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Thanks for the corrections and additional information.
But were not fhe frames for thfse 1929 office cars the same as for P70s?
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What was told me the when I rode the car on a BERA (Shoreline Mus.) charter.
Note that many of the small windows in the clerestories were of tinted glass, green being the most popular but generally a color to harmonize with the body paint. I seem to recall that some cars assigned to top trains such as the Empire State Express actually used stained glass. Tres ekegante!
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