Spain's High Speed Trains As A Financial Drain

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Spain's High Speed Trains As A Financial Drain
Posted by Victrola1 on Friday, December 27, 2019 6:00 PM

"However, economic data tell us a very different story.

After an investment of almost 60 billion euros, the Spanish network is one of the most underused in the world. What does this mean? Why did Spain embark on a frantic race to master high speed? What role are they playing?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYWYhPVwJBY

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 28, 2019 2:07 PM

Probably a waste of time to start any earlier than about 7:00, especially if you don't like smarmy-sounding bald Simon Whistler.  For me, a little of that attitude goes a very long way.

You might want to read the original source:

https://www.juandemariana.org/investigacion/archivo-de-publicaciones/la-alta-velocidad-en-espana

Those that don't read Spanish will probably have to run the downloaded text through something like Google Translate ... good luck!  Perhaps someone can find an English translation that can be linked on line.

At the risk of taking the discussion in typical knee-jerk ways, the Juan de Mariana Institute is avowedly a follower of the 'Austrian school' of economics, and you might want to 'vet' VisualPolitik EN to see if it has any particular set of institutional biases.

Takes a while to get around to the point, to the extent he makes it at all, but the real 'answer' (which is a clear cautionary tale for California, among others) is inherent in the table that flashes past showing riders per km of line.  And ... at least ideologically ... in the argument close to the end that what Spain needed far more than HSR was a better freight-capable network.

I do think, at least for the sake of completeness, he might have mentioned that Spain is currently one of the world authorities on design and construction of HSR trains (e.g. the Avelia Liberty design) and, although it may be needlessly prejudiced of me to say, I don't think there is much possibility of that happening had the AVE system not been built out at reasonably large scale with domestic provision a 'socialist' priority.

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Posted by divebardave on Monday, January 6, 2020 5:05 PM

Spain is still crawling out of a third world dicatorship run by Franco (sided with Hitler) that crippled the soul of its people since 1936-1975

"Francoist Spain (Spanish: España franquista), known in Spain as the Francoist dictatorship (Spanish: dictadura franquista), officially known as the Spanish State (Spanish: Estado Español), is the period of Spanish history between 1936 and 1975, when Francisco Franco ruled Spain as dictator with the title Caudillo. ".

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, January 6, 2020 6:28 PM

Overmod

Probably a waste of time to start any earlier than about 7:00, especially if you don't like smarmy-sounding bald Simon Whistler.  For me, a little of that attitude goes a very long way.

You might want to read the original source:

https://www.juandemariana.org/investigacion/archivo-de-publicaciones/la-alta-velocidad-en-espana

Those that don't read Spanish will probably have to run the downloaded text through something like Google Translate ... good luck!  Perhaps someone can find an English translation that can be linked on line.

At the risk of taking the discussion in typical knee-jerk ways, the Juan de Mariana Institute is avowedly a follower of the 'Austrian school' of economics, and you might want to 'vet' VisualPolitik EN to see if it has any particular set of institutional biases.

Takes a while to get around to the point, to the extent he makes it at all, but the real 'answer' (which is a clear cautionary tale for California, among others) is inherent in the table that flashes past showing riders per km of line.  And ... at least ideologically ... in the argument close to the end that what Spain needed far more than HSR was a better freight-capable network.

I do think, at least for the sake of completeness, he might have mentioned that Spain is currently one of the world authorities on design and construction of HSR trains (e.g. the Avelia Liberty design) and, although it may be needlessly prejudiced of me to say, I don't think there is much possibility of that happening had the AVE system not been built out at reasonably large scale with domestic provision a 'socialist' priority.

 

I thought the Avelia series (there are many)  was designed in France by Alstom.

Judging by the articles on their website,  the Spanish institute is pretty far to the right of the 'Austrian' School, with a discussion about the joys of anarchocapitalism.

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Posted by beaulieu on Monday, January 6, 2020 7:13 PM

charlie hebdo

I thought the Avelia series (there are many)  was designed in France by Alstom.

 

There are four Classes of "Avelia" HSR trainsets only Class 100 (the first) were built by Alstom and based on their TGV Atlantique design. Class 102 is a joint Bombardier/Talgo design. Class 103 is a Siemens "Velaro" design like DB's ICE-3. The fourth class is Class 112 which is a modified version of Class 102 again built by Bombardier and Talgo.

 

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Posted by beaulieu on Monday, January 6, 2020 7:44 PM

Overmod

Takes a while to get around to the point, to the extent he makes it at all, but the real 'answer' (which is a clear cautionary tale for California, among others) is inherent in the table that flashes past showing riders per km of line.  And ... at least ideologically ... in the argument close to the end that what Spain needed far more than HSR was a better freight-capable network.

The only real problem with the freight network is that it was built to the Iberian Gauge (1668mm) and as such freight cars either have to be equipped with trucks that can change gauge, or they have to change trucks. With the completion of the Dual-use High Speed line from Barcelona to the French border standard gauge freight equipment can now operate as far south as Tarragona. If ADIF would have extended the standard gauge to the Valencia area. They would have a good handle on their freight problem. 

The problem for the central government is that they are trying to hold the country together by using the AVE network to tie the regions to Madrid.

Spain, like France and Germany built the most viable High-speed lines first. Germany was the first to see the light and realize that not every city could be connected by such lines, France is beginning to seee the light. Spain, a land where not every citizen sees themselves as Spanish, isn't there yet. 

 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, January 6, 2020 9:59 PM

beaulieu

 

 
charlie hebdo

I thought the Avelia series (there are many)  was designed in France by Alstom.

 

 

There are four Classes of "Avelia" HSR trainsets only Class 100 (the first) were built by Alstom and based on their TGV Atlantique design. Class 102 is a joint Bombardier/Talgo design. Class 103 is a Siemens "Velaro" design like DB's ICE-3. The fourth class is Class 112 which is a modified version of Class 102 again built by Bombardier and Talgo.

 

 

Look at the Alstom web pages. And Siemens.  And Bombardier.  Different manufacturers and different products. 

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 3:48 AM

Pretty sure China is in the same boat as Spain but because the Chinese are not necessarily honest with their reported stats (because they are Communists and Communists never make mistakes).   We will never know the truth in that specific country until they ditch the Communist form of government.

Lesson should be here that infrastructure projects shouldn't be undertaken without some kind of honest evaluation of alternatives and of priorties (which infrastructure project is needed more)

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