Millions of highway miles saved.https://youtu.be/9eo7XtQCags
The northeast would have been better served had the train been operated out of Newburgh N.Y. area at the confluence of Interstates 84 & 87. The worst part of the drive is between the north and northeast and Lorton VA.
Interesting. I wonder, are there showers in the coaches? A lady said that there are showers thorughout the train.
Johnny
243129The northeast would have been better served had the train been operated out of Newburgh N.Y. area at the confluence of Interstates 84 & 87.
But Holy Hanna, how would you get it there? Up the Lehigh Line to some connection to the ex-West Shore, which is hundreds of feet below 84 in a restricted corridor all the way to north of the bridge? Around all the CSX freight traffic?
Situation even worse on the east side, where yarding a train that length to get the cars off would be an amazing exercise, let alone staging the vehicle traffic in a way that facilitates drive-off.
I do thoroughly agree that a 'Northeast Extension' version of the Auto-Train would be a sensible and intelligent thing, but I think we need a better 'gathering place' analogous to what Lorton is. I know Suffern/Mahwah is in a similar kind of hole relative to major roads, and the real estate values have blown out of sight since 287 was finished, but perhaps somewhere between there and the Moodna restriction might be a sensible destination. This might be more than usually facilitated if the consist could be made NEC-compatible as far as Secaucus (I won't call it by its political name) where there is a transfer to the ex-EL trackage going northeast.
OvermodBut Holy Hanna, how would you get it there?
I stated "Newburgh area", not knowing the track 'geography', in an effort to eliminate the miserable drive from the north and northeast. I can take the AutoTrain for free but do not. By the time I get to Lorton the worst part of the drive is over.
You can take it free, including the auto-hauling component? If so, that's a nice perk, IMO.
I agree though; the worst part of the drive is certainly north of Lorton.
Lithonia OperatorYou can take it free, including the auto-hauling component? If so, that's a nice perk, IMO. I agree though; the worst part of the drive is certainly north of Lorton.
Also the most expensive part of the drive.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Deggesty Interesting. I wonder, are there showers in the coaches? A lady said that there are showers thorughout the train.
I don't believe the coaches have showers. I have never seen them on the Superliner coaches that I have ridden on the Texas Eagle, Sunset Limited, etc.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
They had to terminal the Auto-Train in Lorton. It wouldn't fit through the tunnels in DC or Baltimore. Going further north was out of the question.
All things being perfect a terminal in the Hackensack Meadows right across from New York City would have been ideal. Considering the population density there imagine the size of the potential customer pool!
PJS1 Deggesty Interesting. I wonder, are there showers in the coaches? A lady said that there are showers thorughout the train. I don't believe the coaches have showers. If they do they would be the only Superliner coaches with showers.
I don't believe the coaches have showers. If they do they would be the only Superliner coaches with showers.
Flintlock76All things being perfect a terminal in the Hackensack Meadows right across from New York City would have been ideal. Considering the population density there imagine the size of the potential customer pool!
You have to stop using paraquat-laced sinsy if you're going to keep smoking blunts that size.
You could not possibly find a worse place to terminate or originate a practical Auto-Train than that. Right in the middle of a protected wetland, served by a network of roads already renowned for congestion, over convoluted rail routes subject to relatively heavy traffic (with the NEC not available either for your train or for any particularly heavy or stacked freight). None of the existing passenger services, the H&M/PATH, the bus service or commuter links through Secaucus do you any good, because you're arriving and departing in a way that mass transit can't use.
We can get into issues of precisely how much crime and panhandling would be attracted to the environs of the site, who would improve the local road access, etc. after that, as soon as I stop laughing.
Now, it is true that you might be able to get some of the Meadows engine house property rather cheaply ... I think at least some of the necessary vast environmental remediation has been done ... and railfans would just love being in there while waiting for their cars to be loaded or unloaded.
Jeez Mod-man, maybe YOU should try some of those blunts, you've got a nasty streak goin' today!
Look, I'm referring to back when the Auto-Train was first established, back in the '70s. There's plenty of dry land around the periphery of the Meadows where a facility could have been established. At lot of those peripheral areas have been developed since that time, warehouses, truck terminals, apartments, you name it, it's been done.
Traffic congestion? Tell me about Northern Virginia close to the DC area where Lorton is, I'll give you congestion brother! I avoid that area like the plague!
Traffic flow to a Meadowlands terminal could have been planned for and figured out depending on the terminal location. It wouldn't have been rocket science, and with the increased passenger traffic could have been paid for, if not overnight, then within a reasonable time. Look at all the people in the greater New York area who consider Florida the Promised Land and make regular pilgrimages thereto.
But, as I said, it wasn't do-able due to those aforementioned tunnels. Any discussions on our part otherwise are essentially worthless hot air.
GrampMillions of highway miles saved. https://youtu.be/9eo7XtQCags
https://youtu.be/9eo7XtQCags
+hundreds of hiway deaths over the years of Auto-Train operation.
Auto-Train seemed to have more 'medical emergency' stops than any of the Amtrak trains that operated over the territories I supervised.
BaltACD Auto-Train seemed to have more 'medical emergency' stops than any of the Amtrak trains that operated over the territories I supervised.
More people on board, and I'll bet a good chunk of them are elderly.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The original Auto-Train lived and died before the Amtrak ownership and then the Chase wreck fallout made a high-speed freight corridor parallel to the actual NEC practical. That routing is what an 'extended' original purple people pleaser should have taken, not involving going through Ivy City or DC at all as there was no point in handling any general passengers. Alas! I well remember the sleepy wonder that was the B&O/Reading/CNJ approach in those years, and I don't think I'd give those strings of carriers much time before they tried straying from the straight and narrow...
Now, just as Iselin was a nifty place to plot satellite office complexes, I have to wonder if there is some spot in east Jersey that would tie into the 287/GSP/Turnpike complex while it was still comparatively open and new, especially looking south. Then if demand ... and track improvement ... warranted you could go further north. But either way north of at least Ridgefield Park (and neither the Suskie or the Shore are really optimized for stops, despite all that unused 4-track ROW and space going up through Hackensack at 46 and 80 -- note what a pain it would be to have THAT be your terminal connectivity today!) or further east. And I can tell you right now what I think it could have been, although the precise years might not quite line up for cause and effect: run it either by original Lackawanna or the proposed Garrett Mountain track to the Cutoff, give them a scenic pass through the Watchungs, and find a logical gathering place to the west. Remember that only temporary short-term parking would be needed, too. Preserves the Cutoff in the EL-Dereco priorities over the Graham Line and at least theoretically opens up some nifty thoughts about where the north end of an auto service might ultimately be run.
Of course once the long girder bridges across 80 at Fairfield were taken down, that would have been shot in the head. Would any of the other railroads into west Jersey (as opposed to north on the Shore as Joe would likely route it, or via EL to Suffern and beyond) make better sense in those evil pre-Staggers days?
The current Auto Train schedule allows just a shade over 7 hours to turn the equipment on either end. That schedule permits Amtrak to only need two sets of equipment, plus spares. Extending the train farther north would require at least one extra set of equipment to make the longer schedule work. Would Amtrak be able to command enough of a higher ticket price with the new location over what it charges now to cover the increased cost of the extra equipment? I doubt it.
An "expensive model collector"
SD70Dude BaltACD Auto-Train seemed to have more 'medical emergency' stops than any of the Amtrak trains that operated over the territories I supervised. More people on board, and I'll bet a good chunk of them are elderly.
Correct - and those medical emergencies, had they happened while the individuals were driving on I-95, would likely have ended in some form of automobile incident.
Now you're thinkin' about how to tie into that NYC marketplace Mod-man, I like those suggestions!
The thing is, I can't come up with any better ones. Oh well.
As I said before, it's all just speculation, like re-fighting Civil War battles and just as productive.
By the way, I remember billboard ads down in Florida in 1975 for the old Auto-Train. Very blunt and to the point...
"Dreading that dreary drive North? Take the Auto-Train!"
Remember, back in 1975 Route 95 wasn't completed yet. There were still a lot of places where drivers heading south (or north) had to get off and drive on old US 1. Very tedious, and a bit of a culture shock for Yankees!
Flintlock76Now you're thinkin' about how to tie into that NYC marketplace Mod-man, I like those suggestions! The thing is, I can't come up with any better ones. Oh well. As I said before, it's all just speculation, like re-fighting Civil War battles and just as productive. By the way, I remember billboard ads down in Florida in 1975 for the old Auto-Train. Very blunt and to the point... "Dreading that dreary drive North? Take the Auto-Train!" Remember, back in 1975 Route 95 wasn't completed yet. There were still a lot of places where drivers heading south (or north) had to get off and drive on old US 1. Very tedious, and a bit of a culture shock for Yankees!
There are still a few Auto-Train billboards on I-95. Not as many as for 'South of the Border', but still a few.
I'll wait for Doug DeMuro's review.
Thhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssssssssss is the Amtrak Autotrain!
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Flintlock76Now you're thinkin' about how to tie into that NYC marketplace Mod-man, I like those suggestions!
The original founder of Auto-Train probably choose Lorton, Va for several reasons:
1. Back then the land was cheap in that suburb.
2. It broadened his market base by allowing a short drive from the major cities North of there. Short drive was of course defined in how long it took to drive the distance in 1971. He choose Louisville, KY over Chicago, IL for similar reasons.
3. I suspect that having a what???....... 50 car passenger train traverse the NEC, might be problematic at it's slower speed vs the rest of the corridor traffic. Not sure if Amtrak would be happy with that idea these days. Also, have no idea on how slow it has to go to use the crossovers with the auto racks on the back but I suspect switching tracks or pulling over that monster onto a siding is slower with Auto-Train than it is with a regular passenger train.
Let me see, a drive from New York to the DC area in 1971, barring any incidents / accidents on the NJ Turnpike would have taken around four hours, give-or-take. I was there, I know. (Gee, I feel like Dave Klepper! What a rush!)
Now? Again with no NJ Turnpike issues or DC traffic issues you have to figure on five or six hours. You might still make it in four with ideal conditions but I wouldn't bet on it. Let me put it this way, the fastest I've ever driven from North Jersey to my current home in the Richmond VA area (360 miles) is five and a half hours. 25 years ago, conditions were perfect and I've never been able to duplicate the run.
I forgot the overhead catenary on the NEC, shame on me. I don't think those Auto-Rack cars would fit under it, but I could be wrong. Wouldn't surprise me if I was.
A 50 car Auto-Train? Last time I saw one and was able to count the cars the consist was 40 cars. I see your point with switches and crossovers but there's plenty of them on the way from Lorton to Florida. They manage.
Flintlock76I forgot the overhead catenary on the NEC, shame on me. I don't think those Auto-Rack cars would fit under it, but I could be wrong. Wouldn't surprise me if I was.
Yes and no. Some places autoracks fit (at least our regular generic freight autoracks), other places they don't. Autoracks normally use the NEC to get to Baltimore and Wilmington from Perryville daily.
Thanks Zug! Good to know!
I don't see any problem with Auto Train's racks running from Ivy City up to Kearny or wherever they would diverge from the electrified ex-PRR. Dome restrictions are not the same thing, and I seem to remember plenty of traffic at the GM plant near Bayway or wherever it was. Might have been fun to buy a couple of E44s and paint 'em purple. You'd get at least the speed possible further south; we could ask Joe what the fastest speed of private equipment like that would be, or Jack Neiss or Noel Weaver who would have some thoughts. The big problem of slack management is of much less importance on the NEC, and of course the U36Bs could hustle as much as necessary. The issue collapses, as originally indicated, to how you get the train ON the PW&B in the first place.
This was in the days nothing but Metroliners ran much above 80mph anywhere, and 70mph freight was blistering. One long consist that could easily be scheduled off-peak for any commuter district would not have been tough to accommodate.
I think I have told the story of riding the Metroliner in 1969. My father dropped us off about 15 minutes to train time (we were a bit late) and took off to drive to Washington. We ran down, frequently peaking at 100mph... only to discover my father standing on the platform, having driven to Silver Spring, picked up our hosts in DC, driven to the station and parked in the meantime. You could not do that today, but he certainly did it then, and in a '66 Lincoln to boot.
Mike weighs in :
Auto Train
Thanks Mike, and thanks Vince for passing it on.
A personal note. I remember the Auto-Train passing though the Marine base at Quantico VA on the RF&P, this was 1974. The tracks ran past the Officer Candidate School, where I was in attendance at the time. (Oh brother! But that's another story.)
Let me tell you, that thing flew through the base!
The current Auto Train is limited to a maximum of 70 mph. Maybe out west on the BNSF transcon with 90 mph running, the autoracks might be allowed to go a little faster.
If Amtrak wanted to have an NEC Auto Train from somewhere near New York City to Washington DC, (probably Lorton, VA), they would have to order new autoracks with lower height. The F40PH at 15' 7 1/2" cleared the catenary on the NEC, so the new autoracks could be about this height.
Trinity Rail, who make autoracks, did a study and found that 45.6% of cars and trucks are less than 60" in height (in 2008). Motor Trend magazine shows that 2020 pickup trucks and SUVs are less than 81" in height, although we should remember that older trucks could be higher.
Autoracks are constructed with 31 1/2" from floor to rail. If we allow 3" clearance for vehicle bounce, then we need the lower floor at 63" and the upper floor on bilevel autoracks at 84" in height. Adding 5" for roof and floor structure gives 183 1/2" or 15' 3 1/2", which means that the upper floor could be about 88" to accommodate those older pickup trucks.
A new NEC Auto Train appears to be feasible and wanted, but it will probably never happen, because at present there is no leader with vision and gumption to get it done.
Why not just have single deckers? Loading and unloading would be faster.
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