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NY Penn station. Why 30 years have not started improvements.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Friday, November 13, 2020 11:12 PM

Google Earth images show all the tracks covered up until 11th Ave, past which shows the LIRR coach yard.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Friday, November 13, 2020 10:28 PM

Has the area of NYC's Penn Station that had been open to the sky now been built over. Looking at Google Maps, I don't see any tracks west of the Post Office.

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Posted by JPS1 on Thursday, November 12, 2020 8:44 AM

Shock Control
  Any status updates to the Rebuild Penn Station movement? 

Here is a link from Amtrak that may be helpful:

https://nec.amtrak.com/project/moynihan-station/#:~:text=Moynihan%20Train%20Hall%20is%20expected%20to%20be%20fully%20completed%20in%202020.

The impact of COVID-19 on the plan is not clear.  

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Posted by Shock Control on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 3:54 PM

Any status updates to the Rebuild Penn Station movement?

I guess the pandemic has put things on hold. 

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Posted by aegrotatio on Friday, January 31, 2020 3:01 PM

I recently visited the New West Concourse and toured the entire station. So many things are being ripped out and relocated.

As for the old Penn Station, only waiting passengers went upstairs to the huge, expensive, and impractical space if they did at all.

Arrivals and all LIRR passengers just went up and down the exit stairs, and after the track and lower levels were floored over in the early 20th century, they never saw the grand waiting room and concourses where MSG now stands.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 7:39 AM

AMTRAK AND NJ TRANSIT ANNOUNCE WORK TO REFRESH
TICKETED WAITING AREA

AT NEW YORK PENN STATION: Amtrak and NJ TRANSIT today began their
refresh of the Ticketed Waiting Area at New York Penn Station, the
seating area for their customers at the Amtrak Concourse on the Upper
Level and 8th Avenue side of the Station. As part of the refresh,
customers can expect new furniture and fixtures, including communal
tables and seats with electrical and USB outlets to charge devices, an
upgraded ceiling complete with new LED lighting, a family area that
will also feature a nursing mothers’ pod, the removal of the
midpoint barrier, a new information desk and a second entrance
offering easy access towards the 7th Avenue side of the Station.

"I am thrilled to see work start on significant improvements to the NJ
TRANSIT waiting area at New York Penn Station," said Governor Phil
Murphy. "Because of increased cooperation between the State of New
Jersey, NJ TRANSIT, and our partners at Amtrak, NJ TRANSIT customers
will now have the modern, state of the art, and comfortable facilities
at Penn Station that they have deserved for so long." "The journey
is the most important part of the adventure at Amtrak, and we are
refreshing the Ticketed Waiting Area because that journey begins at
the station," said Amtrak Board Chair Tony Coscia. "We thank our
customers, as well as our partners at NJ TRANSIT, for their patience
and cooperation as we continue to update New York Penn Station with an
improved and more modern experience." "These renovations will
improve the commute for customers who travel through Penn Station to
New York and surrounding areas," said New Jersey Department of
Transportation Commissioner Diane Gutierrez-Scaccetti. "Projects
like these encourage use of NJ TRANSIT'™s extensive rail network and
underscore our commitment to maintaining safe and comfortable transit
facilities for our customers." "NJ TRANSIT customers deserve a
better experience at New York Penn Station, and that's exactly what
these improvements will deliver," said NJ TRANSIT President & CEO
Kevin Corbett. "Thanks to our renewed partnership, NJ TRANSIT is
working closely with Amtrak to put our customers first in every
decision we make. Our joint effort to improve the experience at New
York Penn Station is a perfect example. These improvements will help
reduce overcrowding in the NJ TRANSIT waiting area, improve pedestrian
flow through the station, and generally provide for a more comfortable
environment for NJ TRANSIT customers using New York Penn Station as an
origin or destination."

The project, which includes a $7.2 milliontotal joint investment between Amtrak and NJ TRANSIT, will be completed over two phases; the first starts today, Jan.7, and the second is scheduled to start in March, after the first phase is complete. The second phase is expected to be completed in June 2020.

There will also be two temporary spaces (one for each phase of the
project) to accommodate passengers during the two construction
periods. The first will be at the concourse near Tracks 9 and 10, and
the second will be near Tracks 13 and 14. Amtrak undertook the first
steps to refresh the Ticketed Waiting Area in 2019 when it opened a
Starbucks coffee bar in the space to provide customers with the
opportunity to purchase refreshments and removed the exterior
information booth to improve customer flow. The Ticketed Waiting Area
project is the continuation of several improvements Amtrak has been
making to the Station since 2017 as it advances Amtrak’s plan to
modernize stations, infrastructure, and trains on the Northeast
Corridor. Other completed work to date includes the refreshed
restrooms, upgraded air conditioning, new furniture in ClubAcela, and
the continued work of the Infrastructure Renewal program. (NJT -
posted 1/07)

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, January 10, 2020 1:54 PM

Overmod---Ok.. I understand.

I will add though that the information and contribution to science from these missions have been astonishing, invaluable and represent incredible advancements in space exploration.  Just the knowledge we obtained from Enceladus alone is mind blowing and worth the whole thing, all of it.... and there is 10,000x more than that we got. We will be studying data obtained from Cassini for 30-40 years!

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, January 10, 2020 1:50 PM

In a recent article in "Smithsonian", it is suggested that the 'space dividend' is primarily digital, such as the development of integrated circuits, increasing use of computers in many fields, miniaturization, etc.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 10, 2020 1:16 PM

Miningman
Overmod states--- " basically nothing 'open' has been done either for space exploration or space colonization with their approaches since then"

I think you missed the point that I was talking about Russia, and orbiting bases, in the 1980s.  In the context of manned operations.  Most of the items you've quoted are relatively small-scale remote probe missions, which added little to reliable low-cost heavy-lift capability or to development of even an orbital 'residence', to say nothing of manufacturing, capability.  We have the ISS (and I suppose I should be grateful for it) but it's scarcely what I was looking forward to as the 'space dividend' after the Apollo missions.

 

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, January 10, 2020 12:33 PM

Overmod states--- " basically nothing 'open' has been done either for space exploration or space colonization with their approaches since then"

Pioneer 10 1973

Pioneer 11 1974-79

Voyager 1  1979-80

Voyager 2  1979-81-86

Galileo       1995-2003

Ulysses.     1992-2004

Cassini/ Huygens 2000-04-17

Huygens.    2005 ( Titan lander)

New Horizons 2007-15

Juno           2016-2021

Planned 

Clipper--- Jupiter/Europa

Lucy------Asteroids

JIME------Ganymede

Dragonfly - Titan lander

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 10, 2020 10:37 AM

54light15
NASA is going back to the moon? Wow, only fifty or so years since the last time. 

And the sad thing is that so little has changed in those years.  We were supposed to have working transatmospheric vehicles in the 1980s, for heaven's sake.  Even the predecessor to VentureStar (the one with the 20 J58s) would have been workable.  The Russians came depressingly close to heavy industrial presence in space in that decade, and while I think it was a darn near thing we could shut them down before they did, basically nothing 'open' has been done either for space exploration or space colonization with their approaches since then.  

I suppose it's OK, though.  Can you imagine the 'fun' trying to run an actual commercial space operation with our current software-development paradigm of fixing or reprogramming when it breaks?  The sad thing being that, in the right hands, that's as good a way to design software and hardware capabilities as it is for actual PTC... something else that's only fifty or so years overdue by now.

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Posted by 54light15 on Friday, January 10, 2020 10:09 AM

NASA is going back to the moon? Wow, only fifty or so years since the last time. 

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Posted by Gramp on Thursday, January 9, 2020 10:42 PM

Probably will take some event that renders one or both tunnels useless. Then the requisite handwringing and fingerpointing takes place, followed by the Herculean effort to make things new. 

Meanwhile, NASA moves forward towards its moonshot. Could inspire a new generation. 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, January 9, 2020 6:02 PM

There are currently only two tracks tunneled under the North River,  insufficient capacity for Amtrak and NJT. 

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Posted by NKP guy on Thursday, January 9, 2020 4:36 PM

Overmod

In breaking news:  Cuomo apparently wants to fix some of the scuttling-rat issue by redeveloping 7th to 8th between 30th and 31st as a grand thing of some kind.  He has gotten off on the wrong foot, though, by not bothering to tell the property owners there of his wonderful plan in advance.  This may get comical fairly quick.

 

 
   Your point is noted.  
 
   I'm not sure how these sorts of things are usually done, but I think it involves a sort of subterfuge whereby several agents just somehow manage to buy everything up without all the property owners getting wise until the last minute.  In this case, maybe eminent domain will be used instead.
 
   Still, I take it as a positive sign that Penn Station is going to be the subject of a major re-investment.  The people who own Madison Square Garden should be reading the handwriting on the wall.  
 
   Now, if only those thousand-year-old tunnels could be replaced or rebuilt....
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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, January 9, 2020 12:09 PM

In breaking news:  Cuomo apparently wants to fix some of the scuttling-rat issue by redeveloping 7th to 8th between 30th and 31st as a grand thing of some kind.  He has gotten off on the wrong foot, though, by not bothering to tell the property owners there of his wonderful plan in advance.  This may get comical fairly quick.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, December 29, 2019 3:04 PM

Overmod

 

 
charlie hebdo
Since the Superliners are 16' 2", bluestreak's concern is moot.

 

Now that you mention it ... 'tis, 'tisn't it?

Were the clearances more radically restricted when the gallery cars were designed?

 

I don't  know about CUS when the CB&Q introduced the concept in 1950, but the Bush trainshed had to be raised at Madison St. when the C&NW introduced theirs in the mid-50s. RI at LaSalle St.?  I don't know. 

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, December 29, 2019 2:51 PM

charlie hebdo
Since the Superliners are 16' 2", bluestreak's concern is moot.

Now that you mention it ... 'tis, 'tisn't it?

Were the clearances more radically restricted when the gallery cars were designed?

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, December 29, 2019 1:42 PM

Overmod

 

 
charlie hebdo
But the Siemens cars are what are being considered.  I notice you conveniently omitted to say what the Philly clearance was so you could utter another in your endless supply of cliches and hackneyed quips.

 

I think part of what he's noting 'between the lines' is that there's a reason for that Chicago height to be measured in 32nds, and that even a fractional inch might cause an 'interference' (with fairly dramatic results).  

On the other hand, absolute vertical clearance for bilevels is likely complicated both by load weight and by sway at the top edges of the clearance diagram due to the relatively high (and presumably 'top-heavy' when loaded) carbodies.  In some cases the clearance is measured relative to a curved roof ... I thought at least part of the Trailer-Jet incident Balt mentioned was due to 'square corners' more than to nominal ride height; you see this in the Philistine tunnel conversions to double-stack clearance that 'notch out the corners' just enough to clear at appropriate speed... 

Are the Siemens Viaggios being considered 'as built'?  To me, they seemed relatively cramped upstairs for American service...

 

Since the Superliners are 16' 2", bluestreak's concern is moot. 

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, December 29, 2019 11:30 AM

charlie hebdo
But the Siemens cars are what are being considered.  I notice you conveniently omitted to say what the Philly clearance was so you could utter another in your endless supply of cliches and hackneyed quips.

I think part of what he's noting 'between the lines' is that there's a reason for that Chicago height to be measured in 32nds, and that even a fractional inch might cause an 'interference' (with fairly dramatic results).  

On the other hand, absolute vertical clearance for bilevels is likely complicated both by load weight and by sway at the top edges of the clearance diagram due to the relatively high (and presumably 'top-heavy' when loaded) carbodies.  In some cases the clearance is measured relative to a curved roof ... I thought at least part of the Trailer-Jet incident Balt mentioned was due to 'square corners' more than to nominal ride height; you see this in the Philistine tunnel conversions to double-stack clearance that 'notch out the corners' just enough to clear at appropriate speed... 

Are the Siemens Viaggios being considered 'as built'?  To me, they seemed relatively cramped upstairs for American service...

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, December 28, 2019 11:17 PM

But the Siemens cars are what are being considered.  I notice you conveniently omitted to say what the Philly clearance was so you could utter another in your endless supply of cliches and hackneyed quips. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, December 28, 2019 10:22 PM

charlie hebdo
The most recent Metra gallery cars are 15' 10 13/32" tall.

Bombardier bilevels are 15' 11" tall.  Do you think the current clearances are so tight that an additional 17/32" would be a problem? 

The Siemens Viaggio Twin is about 15' 1.1" (4600 mm).

Several decades ago the B&O had a Surfacing Gang working on what CSX calls the Philadelphia Sub between Baltimore and Philadelphia.  Nobody thought much about it, that is until the Trailer Jet arrived Philadelphia with the roofs of the 17'3" trailers ripped back right at the top jont of the roof to the trailer side.  Half a inch is half a inch.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, December 28, 2019 5:55 PM

Overmod

 

 
blue streak 1
The clearances at CHI US are a real impediment not only to Amtrak but METRA as well.

 

Strange that in the city where whole neighborhoods and large buildings were being raised seamlessly before the Civil War -- in part by George Pullman -- nobody can figure out how to increase the overhead clearances by any means.

They could start in the same way we widen streets here: require any new construction ... like that boring Bank of Montreal thing ... to have vertical clearances suitable for proper double-deck and high-level cars plus accommodation for 50kV catenary.   Then set about lifting other structures ... say, with a combination of careful seismometry and computer-coordinated jacking ... as you renovate other parts of the rail infrastructure.  

Personally, I believe that step alone does quite a bit of future-proofing what Chicago uses for heavy rail commuter service, especially on lines that have already been cleared for double-stack freight running.

 

When bi-levels started running on the C&NW In the late 1950s, the Bush train sheds were lifted higher by using jacks to lift them higher for clearances. This may have happened at CUS also. 

Note the heights of various bi-levels. 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 28, 2019 2:20 PM

blue streak 1
The clearances at CHI US are a real impediment not only to Amtrak but METRA as well.

Strange that in the city where whole neighborhoods and large buildings were being raised seamlessly before the Civil War -- in part by George Pullman -- nobody can figure out how to increase the overhead clearances by any means.

They could start in the same way we widen streets here: require any new construction ... like that boring Bank of Montreal thing ... to have vertical clearances suitable for proper double-deck and high-level cars plus accommodation for 50kV catenary.   Then set about lifting other structures ... say, with a combination of careful seismometry and computer-coordinated jacking ... as you renovate other parts of the rail infrastructure.  

Personally, I believe that step alone does quite a bit of future-proofing what Chicago uses for heavy rail commuter service, especially on lines that have already been cleared for double-stack freight running.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, December 28, 2019 2:17 PM

The most recent Metra gallery cars are 15' 10 13/32" tall.

Bombardier bilevels are 15' 11" tall.  Do you think the current clearances are so tight that an additional 17/32" would be a problem? 

The Siemens Viaggio Twin is about 15' 1.1" (4600 mm).

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, December 28, 2019 10:21 AM

IMO  The clearances at CHI US are a real impediment not only to Amtrak but METRA as well.  If new cars for METRA were not height limited then a taller car could be the same as some commuter trains in Europe.  

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 11:01 PM

n012944
I missed the location. CUS is even in the background of some of the pictures. Duh.
 

Renderings aren't always clear but the map is.  Anyway the OP hates Metra so much for inconviencing him a few times that he thinks Metra wants to sell CUS and tear it down,  when, of course, Amtrak is the owner.

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Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 10:41 PM
I missed the location. CUS is even in the background of some of the pictures. Duh.

An "expensive model collector"

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 7:14 PM

It's in the next block south of CUS,  between Jackson and Van Burn. 

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