zardozI have a possible solution: a combined / alternate routing. Run some of the trains just like they are doing now, but also run some of them on a rebuilt Kenosha sub. Forget crossing to CP tracks. Just run the trains right into Ogilvie. A study would have to be done do determine if the passengers would be ok with the alternate depot, but the alternate routing might actually be something commuters might want. All trains would use the Milwaukee depot, and some would run on the CP, just like they do now; but some would run on the UP's Kenosha sub, perhaps making a few stops along the way. It would be tricky squeezing more trains into the schedule south of Waukegan during rush hour; however, I'm sure it could be done. I would think the incresed flexibility would be something Amtrak, Metra, CP, and UP could all benefit from, not to mention how it also might benefit passengers.
Nobody paid much attention when I wrote about this earlier but that used to be the former Milwaukee Road line when both the Milwaukee and C&NW ran together on the same line between Milwaukee and Chicago.
In fact, if you look on Mapquest you can see former connections to the ex-CNW lakefront line at the point where the Milwaukee West line branches off from the last Milwaukee Mainline. It used to cross over the Milwaukee North-South line with a wye on either side and traverse all the way to the ex-CNW lakefront line. The Right of Way is still there but is a bike trail now. The CNW interchange was erased by a freeway but you can see a remnant of the line emerging on the lakefront side of the ex-CNW lakefront line. You can also see the same thing at Racine - Sturtevant where the former Southwestern had a crossover with a Wye on both the West and East side of the former Milwaukee N-S Chicago-Milwaukee line. Milwaukee used the C&NW lakefront line for at least 15-20 years or more until it built it's own mainline to Chicago from Milwaukee. Just curious, did they ever tell you that as a C&NW employee or was that history lost forever in time between the two competing lines?
Anyhow, my two cents I think that would be a good idea except for the terminus in Chicago. I would keep Union Station as the terminus but find a way to reach the former C&NW lakefront line South of Kenosha with a connection (perhaps moving the METRA terminus South of that new connection or to state line border), then just come back into Milwaukee at the former connection point. That would give Amtrak a second Milwaukee to Chicago routing to consider but keep Union Station as the terminus. Eliminating the METRA trains into Kenosha would I think be a bonus to METRA if they could turn the trains at the state border instead. I think WisDOT would be more than happy to handle the costs of Chicago-Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee as they seem to keep floating the Milwaukee-Racine-Kenosha part as a slower commutter line.
I think there is something in the engineering of the lakefront line that Amtrak does not like though. Just a suspicion I have. Is it the elevation? Number of bridges? Curvature restrictions? Not sure. Just seems Amtrak has avoided using it when given a choice at formation in 1971 and again with the KRM proposal.
zardoz CMStPnP WisDOT proposal did not say where the CP trains would cross over to UP as this was a far in the future item. Just saying they might move it up now that Glenview is blocking. They not only want to add 3 additional RT trains but one more on top of that eventually for the new Twin Cities train they are working on. So that would be 11 trains in each direction. I have a possible solution: a combined / alternate routing. Run some of the trains just like they are doing now, but also run some of them on a rebuilt Kenosha sub. Forget crossing to CP tracks. Just run the trains right into Ogilvie. A study would have to be done do determine if the passengers would be ok with the alternate depot, but the alternate routing might actually be something commuters might want. All trains would use the Milwaukee depot, and some would run on the CP, just like they do now; but some would run on the UP's Kenosha sub, perhaps making a few stops along the way. It would be tricky squeezing more trains into the schedule south of Waukegan during rush hour; however, I'm sure it could be done. I would think the incresed flexibility would be something Amtrak, Metra, CP, and UP could all benefit from, not to mention how it also might benefit passengers.
CMStPnP WisDOT proposal did not say where the CP trains would cross over to UP as this was a far in the future item. Just saying they might move it up now that Glenview is blocking. They not only want to add 3 additional RT trains but one more on top of that eventually for the new Twin Cities train they are working on. So that would be 11 trains in each direction.
I have a possible solution: a combined / alternate routing.
Run some of the trains just like they are doing now, but also run some of them on a rebuilt Kenosha sub. Forget crossing to CP tracks. Just run the trains right into Ogilvie. A study would have to be done do determine if the passengers would be ok with the alternate depot, but the alternate routing might actually be something commuters might want.
All trains would use the Milwaukee depot, and some would run on the CP, just like they do now; but some would run on the UP's Kenosha sub, perhaps making a few stops along the way. It would be tricky squeezing more trains into the schedule south of Waukegan during rush hour; however, I'm sure it could be done.
I would think the incresed flexibility would be something Amtrak, Metra, CP, and UP could all benefit from, not to mention how it also might benefit passengers.
Isn't the ex-CNW north of Kenosha pretty poor track now? How much would that cost? The barrier to more Hiawatha Service isn't Glenview. The sidings are for freight.
CMStPnPWisDOT proposal did not say where the CP trains would cross over to UP as this was a far in the future item. Just saying they might move it up now that Glenview is blocking. They not only want to add 3 additional RT trains but one more on top of that eventually for the new Twin Cities train they are working on. So that would be 11 trains in each direction.
See that didn't take long. Note the nuance on the IDOT decision.......We don't really care if Wisconsin moves ahead with the project and funding it we just cannot lead it or fund it with the opposition in Glenview.....ha-ha. Throw Glenview under the bus......ha-ha. I don't know why I think that is funny but it just comes across that way.
Article is from the BIZTIMES website:
https://www.biztimes.com/2019/ideas/government-politics/wisconsin-illinois-working-on-alternatives-to-expansion-of-amtraks-milwaukee-to-chicago-hiawatha-service/
In 20+ years since the 1997 study, I would imagine (zardoz knows) the line is in much worse shape.
Here is a link to the old and initial study on reactivating commutter rail service on the ex-C&NW Lakefront line. I think they did a more recent one about 2010, roughly not a whole lot of difference between the two studies:
http://www.sewrpc.org/SEWRPCFiles/Publications/CAPR/capr-239_feasibility_study_krm.pdf
Seriously, folks. Someone should look back at an employee MILW TT from 1960 and see how many passenger trains (about 10 each way?) and freights they were running then.
zardozTo where in South Milwaukee are you referring? The only place I'm aware of that the UP's Kenosha sub could connect with the CP's C&M sub (Amtrak) are at Washington Street on Milwaukee's near-south side. The CP crosses over the UP near Chase, but the lines are separated by elevation.
Milwaukee just bought the land next to where the former connection was, so I am guessing there (near Greenfield Ave?). Originally they bought the land to connect to the Lakefront line for future commuter train service but since it can connect to both the Lakefront Line and the Kenosha line...even better buy now it seems.
In Kenosha County they would probably have to acquire land and lay track.
WisDOT proposal did not say where the CP trains would cross over to UP as this was a far in the future item. Just saying they might move it up now that Glenview is blocking. They not only want to add 3 additional RT trains but one more on top of that eventually for the new Twin Cities train they are working on. So that would be 11 trains in each direction. Green Bay which is still no where on the horizon was planned initially to be two trains a day. So that would bump it to 13 RT on Chicago Milwaukee if the Green Bay proposal is ever worked on again.
At some point CP is going to say, no more passenger trains. Hence WisDOT had a plan for CP to share the underused UP line which they calculated at only 6-10 UP trains a day that used it. If I had to guess I would say the connection would be made in Milwaukee to give UP full control of the trains between Milwaukee and Chicago, I'm not a dispatcher but I suspect that would be more fluid than having them cut over at Kenosha.
I noticed on my last Chicago to Milwaukee trip a few months ago that they also have installed quad crossing gates North of the Illinois border in preparation for higher speeds, not all the crossings were done yet.
CMStPnPOr they can put the connection back in place in South Milwaukee and shift CP trains over to the UPRR line at that point. Which I think was the WisDOT long term plan to eliminate all but very limited CP rail freight on the Chicago - Milwaukee line.
The UP's Milwaukee sub is within 1/2 mile of the CP's C&M sub in Pleasant Prairie. There are even two industrial tracks that 'connect' (even though a train's direction would get reversed); one at the former Pleasant Prairie power plant, which is currently storing WEPX empties, and the other is at Ardent Mills--home of the former Bain auto-loading yard. With some modifications and new construction, at Ardent Mills, southbound trains could be turned north, and at the power plant, northbound trains could be turned south.
There is (or was--haven't been that way in a while and do not know if the tracks still connect) an industrial track between Waxdale on the UP and Sturtevant on the CP. Even if the rail is gone, the ROW exists.
OvermodSo it would take IDOT resolution to get the job done.
Not necessarily, I believe they can force the issue via the courts if they wanted but more than likely they are going to explore CP - UP freight line consolidation first since that was in the long-term plan (complete takeover of the Chicago to Milwaukee CP line for passenger service). The CP-UP frieght line consolidation is a much more expensive proposition but I can see WisDOT looking at that next.
They are not objecting to the increase in trains by Amtrak they are objecting to the siding proposed by CP. It's not the end of the proposal I don't think.
1. They can get CP to agree to proceed without the siding.
2. They can build a connector track to the UPRR line that shifts over to Bensenville further North in say perhaps Kenosha County, Wisconsin. This would eliminate the need for the siding on the CP, reduce freight traffic in METRA territory and would be a win-win for METRA and Amtrak but would require a bit of negotiation with UP and probably some funds to upgrade the line to a higher speed limit plus add some holding tracks. The disadvantage is the CP trains would now cut the METRA North and South tracks both as they crossed the former CP line to Bensenville. This proposal would be slightly more expensive but I think would make CP happier as their only worry would be crossing the Metra line once instead of having to also contend with traffic on the Metra line to reach the Bensenville cutoff.
Or they can put the connection back in place in South Milwaukee and shift CP trains over to the UPRR line at that point. Which I think was the WisDOT long term plan to eliminate all but very limited CP rail freight on the Chicago - Milwaukee line. WisDOT would just need to move up the dates of the long term plan and spend quite a bit more money to raise the quality of the ex-CNW line.
3. Both Amtrak or WisDOT (or both) can fight this decision in court. Depends if they want to spend the money, I am pretty confident either one would win. My guess is they will explore the UP - CP frieght line consolidation first and see what the pushback is there.
Honestly quite sad! I don’t see how these communities think they don’t stand to benefit from expanding Hiawatha services. More of these trains will allow residents more ways to get to Chicago and Milwauke. Yes Metra serves both cities, but Metra does not go to Milwaukee.
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
BaltACDNIMBY BANANA country.
But on the other hand, people elect the democracy they deserve. And it's the governments of the two towns that have been putting up the organized objections.
Do the two communities benefit from more frequent Hiawatha service ... mostly for Chicago-to-Milwaukee people ... to the extent they'd be discommoded by the siding construction and operation, and the changes necessary to the local physical plant? I'd bet not.
So it would take IDOT resolution to get the job done. And it's now clear they don't have enough.
NIMBY BANANA country.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Why am I not surprised?
SPRINGFIELD, Ill. — Bowing to opposition from the communities of Glenview and Lake Forest, the Illinois Department of Transportation will no longer support plans for two sidings that are part of a plan to increase Amtrak Hiawatha service betwee...
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/05/13-illinois-dot-bows-to-opposition-on-sidings-for-hiawatha-expansion
Brian Schmidt, Editor, Classic Trains magazine
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