CHICAGO — Amtrak has announced it will no longer sell tickets for the Hoosier State after June 30 as the train nears cancellation as a result of loss of funding from the state of Indiana. The state currently provides $3 million in funding for t...
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/04/09-with-funding-loss-imminent-amtrak-ends-ticket-sales-for-hoosier-state
Brian Schmidt, Editor, Classic Trains magazine
Another blow to those who think that corridors and state support are the future of Amtrak.
Very shortsighted of Indiana. How that state can rationalize that multi-millions spent improving the CSS&SB railway will greatly improve their economics as a state but that a smaller investment in Amtrak on Chicago and Indianapolis is not worth it as a rail corridor?
I don't get it.
CMStPnPI don't get it.
MidlandMike Another blow to those who think that corridors and state support are the future of Amtrak.
JPS1 If a train generates fewer riders on average than could be carried in a bus, why in the world it runs at all is beyond me.
runnerdude48 CMStPnP I don't get it. You don't get it? The CSS&SB carries more than 11,000 passengers per WEEK DAY. So it carries more passengers in 3 weekdays (33,000+) than the Hoosier State carries in a year (27,000). The CSS & SB carries close to 4,000,000 passengers in a year. And you don't get why the state puts more money into the CSS & SB than the Hoosier State? If that is true then you probably don't get a lot of things.
CMStPnP I don't get it.
You don't get it? The CSS&SB carries more than 11,000 passengers per WEEK DAY. So it carries more passengers in 3 weekdays (33,000+) than the Hoosier State carries in a year (27,000). The CSS & SB carries close to 4,000,000 passengers in a year. And you don't get why the state puts more money into the CSS & SB than the Hoosier State? If that is true then you probably don't get a lot of things.
Ding ding ding! The Hoosier State proves that not all trains are good trains.
An "expensive model collector"
runnerdude48You don't get it? The CSS&SB carries more than 11,000 passengers per WEEK DAY. So it carries more passengers in 3 weekdays (33,000+) than the Hoosier State carries in a year (27,000). The CSS & SB carries close to 4,000,000 passengers in a year. And you don't get why the state puts more money into the CSS & SB than the Hoosier State? If that is true then you probably don't get a lot of things.
South Shore petitioned for abandonment of all Passenger Service in 1977. It was only the intervention of Indiana's Republican Governor that saved it.
JPS1The most viable state supported corridors, as least based on number of riders, are Pacific Surfliner (2.9 million riders), Capitols (1.7 million), Keystone (1.5 million), Empire Service (1.2 million), and San Joaquins (1.1 million). Runners up include the Hiawatha’s (844.4 thousand), Cascades (806.1 thousand) and The Downeaster (540 thousand). These appear to be corridors where trains make sense.
I believe you should also include at least these corridors: CHI-StL (585.2 thousand) plus a positive adjusted operating earning of $1.7 mil.; Wolverines (483.7 thousand) and the three growing VA corridors and Carolinian. Many others are growing and should continue.
I am not sure why some don't understand the dynamics of these shorter corridors as transportation of people, as opposed to land cruise "Experiences" for a few. The problem with the Hoosier State was a terrible schedule and very slow time compared to a bus or car.
CMStPnPSouth Shore petitioned for abandonment of all Passenger Service in 1977. It was only the intervention of Indiana's Republican Governor that saved it.
runnerdude48 CMStPnP South Shore petitioned for abandonment of all Passenger Service in 1977. It was only the intervention of Indiana's Republican Governor that saved it. Of course he did. He had to. Shouth Shore carries 4,000,000 passengers per year. Amtrak carries 27,000. That's a big difference.
CMStPnP South Shore petitioned for abandonment of all Passenger Service in 1977. It was only the intervention of Indiana's Republican Governor that saved it.
Of course he did. He had to. Shouth Shore carries 4,000,000 passengers per year. Amtrak carries 27,000. That's a big difference.
And that was 42 years ago. I fail to see what saving an essential, heavily used, mostly commuter system has to do with not saving an intercity service so slow and inconvenient that almost nobody used it.
charlie hebdo runnerdude48 CMStPnP South Shore petitioned for abandonment of all Passenger Service in 1977. It was only the intervention of Indiana's Republican Governor that saved it. Of course he did. He had to. Shouth Shore carries 4,000,000 passengers per year. Amtrak carries 27,000. That's a big difference. And that was 42 years ago. I fail to see what saving an essential, heavily used, mostly commuter system has to do with not saving an intercity service so slow and inconvenient that almost nobody used it.
Considering the congestion on I-65, I am surprised the State of Indiana hasn't put pressure on Amtrak and the participating freight carriers to increase the speed and convience of the route. What is the going rate in adding lane to a Interstate Highway - $2M a mile, $5M a mile. How much would political pressure cost to make Indy - Chicago a viable rail corridor, and for that matter Cincinnati - Indy?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
charlie hebdoAnd that was 42 years ago. I fail to see what saving an essential, heavily used, mostly commuter system has to do with not saving an intercity service so slow and inconvenient that almost nobody used it.
Ridership has been stuck at 4 million since the 1950's. It's only heavily used because it is subsidized. The passenger side of the business has been steadily losing money since the 1950's and even further back. It was primarily the freight side that was profitable. The line was built not necessarily to carry passengers but to provide a market for Edison's electric plants.
Nevertheless, the line has seen steady investment and improvement in order to keep the ridership steady at 4 million. Chicago to Indianapolis has seen massive cuts and disinvestment including train stations along the route that are probably not aligned properly with perspective ridership markets, crappy and slow track routing South of Chicago, etc.
So the difference is that South Shore was invested in heavily and continues to be despite being a money loser. Chicago to Indianapolis is not. You simply can't carry 4 million passengers a year on one train a day frequency and I would not recommend trying.
BaltACDConsidering the congestion on I-65, I am surprised the State of Indiana hasn't put pressure on Amtrak and the participating freight carriers to increase the speed and convience of the route. What is the going rate in adding lane to a Interstate Highway - $2M a mile, $5M a mile. How much would political pressure cost to make Indy - Chicago a viable rail corridor, and for that matter Cincinnati - Indy?
Political pressure? Indiana has more then enough budget to spend money on the corridor if they cared. They just do not care enough to. Which is fine they are probably never going to be a part of the Midwest HSR compact and somehow the Midwest HSR will have to finance the tracks across Northern Indiana. Possibly with no stops in Indiana.
Lets see here.....$20 million in cash incentives to the airline industry just for the Indianapolis Airport.
https://www.ibj.com/articles/70657-20m-in-state-incentives-targeted-to-help-airport-lure-international-flights
BaltACD. Considering the congestion on I-65, I am surprised the State of Indiana hasn't put pressure on Amtrak and the participating freight carriers to increase the speed and convience of the route. What is the going rate in adding lane to a Interstate Highway - $2M a mile, $5M a mile. How much would political pressure cost to make Indy - Chicago a viable rail corridor, and for that matter Cincinnati - Indy?
BaltACDI am surprised the State of Indiana hasn't put pressure on Amtrak and the participating freight carriers to increase the speed and convience of the route.
And therein lies the real problem for decent passenger rail services. Amtrak is dependent on freight railroads, being a rather unwelcome tenant that the freights want to push out. If this country had been serious about passenger rail services in 1971 or maybe even today (but much harder now) underused and abandoned ROWs should have been aquired to develop dedicated passenger rail routes linking key areas. Those routes could have gradually been upgraded to HSR even, but at least 110mph. Think of some former lines between Chicago and NYC, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Indy, etc. that are gone or exist only as short segments. PC/Conrail sensibly got rid of services on many of those duplicative routes. Having a buyer like Amtrak (or some other entity) even in the 80s surely would have been better deal for Conrail than selling/leasing to some shortline operator or scrap value. And it would have been a bargain for Amtrak. The same siuation exists elsewhere in parts of the US.
Good idea. Maybe not too late in some places.
charlie hebdoThink of some former lines between Chicago and NYC, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Indy, etc. that are gone or exist only as short segments. PC/Conrail sensibly got rid of services on many of those duplicative routes. Having a buyer like Amtrak (or some other entity) even in the 80s surely would have been better deal for Conrail than selling/leasing to some shortline operator or scrap value.
I still detest Liddy Dole for her attitude toward Conrail. And that, I think, is representative of how most of the United States government regarded what Conrail was actually doing in the 1980s. Whether or not the official 'fix was in' to quietly phase out rail passenger travel and Amtrak by throttling it in various ways, there was very, very little chance that a network of passenger-optimized legacy routes ... even in convenient corridors longer than regional feeder districts ... was likely to come about.
In part this might have been the best being the enemy of the good -- the idea that any kind of high speed had to be part and parcel of government participation in route acquisition and maintenance. There is likely to this day the assumption that putting hundreds of millions or more into even relatively patchwork routes had BETTER result in something that can get the label 'high speed' slapped on it, even if the actual real-world time gains are in the useless wretched minutes. That wouldn't be happening for any of the routes CH mentioned, although I confess it would have been highly interesting to see if the Super C's route could have been 'kept' 90mph+ optimized as a condition of approving the SPSF merger, and then functionally improved with faster traffic, including faster intermodal transfer of high-speed freight, specifically in mind.
Oh yes: there is very little if any overlap between building "HrSR" in highway medians and running Amtrak equipment there. Curves are too high (and, in fact, often 'engineered in' to combat highway hypnosis), grades too steep and transitions too rapid to make on-grade track construction for those speeds practical unless the equipment is optimized to it. Let's not talk too much about stations, access, or parking. Then we get into the likely effect of accidents either on the road or the railroad, and the deep pockets required to survive afterward.
'Rails in the median' was a swell idea in the 1960s. It has gotten much less swell in the intervening years. It is one of those ideas like maglev or monorails that are nifty for crayonistas to play with when someone else has to figure out how to pay the costs. It is NOT the answer for many regional corridors that are supposed to integrate into the "Amtrak" national network, at least not in my opinion.
JPS1
Don't forget Crawfordsville, Lafayette, West Lafayette and Rennselear pay a small subsidy for the Hoosier State. The state of Indiana has talked twice about working with CSX to raise the speed limit of the HS to 79 mph, but nothing beyond the two news releases, no inspection of the right of way and and no face to face meetings ever occured. No marketing by Indiana, except for a facebook page. Only 10 long term spaces for parking at Indianapols, talked about doubling it, but never happened. Ridership also went downhill when CSX began PSR and the route used by Amtrak was blocked for hours with the Cardinal and Hoosier State was less than one mile from Union State southbound. Finally a reroute was implemented with a back up move from the Crawfordsville line to the ex Big Four main line towards Avon Yard and then eastbound again down the double track mainline 4 miles to Union Station. Lots of issues from several different directions. 60 mph doesn't cut it and the ridership reflects that. Still hope remains, but not much.
JOHN L CLARK JPS1 Don't forget Crawfordsville, Lafayette, West Lafayette and Rennselear pay a small subsidy for the Hoosier State. The state of Indiana has talked twice about working with CSX to raise the speed limit of the HS to 79 mph, but nothing beyond the two news releases, no inspection of the right of way and and no face to face meetings ever occured. No marketing by Indiana, except for a facebook page. Only 10 long term spaces for parking at Indianapols, talked about doubling it, but never happened. Ridership also went downhill when CSX began PSR and the route used by Amtrak was blocked for hours with the Cardinal and Hoosier State was less than one mile from Union State southbound. Finally a reroute was implemented with a back up move from the Crawfordsville line to the ex Big Four main line towards Avon Yard and then eastbound again down the double track mainline 4 miles to Union Station. Lots of issues from several different directions. 60 mph doesn't cut it and the ridership reflects that. Still hope remains, but not much.
Do you know if there is any prospect in the future of taking the PRR all the way in to the station?
Johnny
Yep your right about the mileage, I guess that is why I retired from the RR. The PRR track is used to get to Transfer Yard off of Belmont St., but therein lies the problem. The Crawfordsville Branch (exPRR) then merges into the ex-NYC double track mainline about 1.5 miles from the White River bridge, there are double crossovers one before and one after the bridge, and the Cardinal/Hoosier State must use to enter/exit Union Station. The problem with delays at Indianapolis are history, as now pickups/setouts are made at Anderson, IN./ South Gridley Yard. But the long delays went on for some time and drove a lot of repeat Amtrak customers away. The big issue now is 60 mph tracks and the slow running from Dyer into Chicago Union Station. I will also add that sidings between Indy and Chicago have been lengthened or added.
Thanks, John--but you have me a bit confused; isn't the line to Crawfordsville ex P&E? Also, what setouts/pickups are made at Anderson? does the Cardinal go through there now, instead of directly to Connersville and on to Cincinnati over the former B&O?
JOHN L CLARKThe big issue now is 60 mph tracks and the slow running from Dyer into Chicago Union Station.
Is there any tie-in with the proposed commuter branch to Dyer that would speed up the Hoosier?
I didn't confuse you, Conrail did, when they "rationilized" their property. Going northbound. Indianapolis Union Station has 2 tracks remaining #9 & #10. They combine and merge into ex NYC #2 track, then Amtrak goes through a crossover from #2 to #1 track and then takes #1 track to a switch to the "Crawfordsville Branch"(3/4 miles), which is the old PRR St. Louis line through Terre Haute. This line goes straight west to "Davis" which was a tower location straight across from the old Indianapolis International airport (3miles +/-) and then there is a very sharp curve to the north, which is the old PRR track to Frankfort, IN. and the route of the South Wind (4 +/- miles) and over top the old NYC double track main and just about a mile east of Avon Yard. Then there is another switch and there Amtrak goes on the old NYC (P&E line) to Crawfordsville or "CP Ames) (the name changed about a year or so ago). At Ames there WAS a connection track to the old Monon Line, but the connection track was taken out and now is the mainline and the old NYC(P&E) track is now a long running track from Ames to a factory and thus the old NYC(P&E) ends, ala Conrail. From what was once Ames it is the old Monon Line all the way past Dyer, IN. By the way, I believe since the old connection track was 10 mph---prepared to stop and is now part of the main line and has been raised to 25 mph. I believe this is the point where the 15 minutes recently taken out of Amtrak's running time.
OK, because the delays to Amtrak were long and two very busy street crossings were blocked in Indianapolis, every day of the week, CSX moved all the block swapping to Anderson, IN at South Gridley Yard (ex PRR).
I haven't heard a thing about that and I believe the proposed CSS&SB station is not projected to use the same station as Amtrak. But long ways from reality, as the South Shore would like to double track the main-line, looking to extend to downtown South Bend and a different track arrangement at South Bend Airport.
With the rate at which Dyer, St. Johns. Sherrilville & Merrilville is growing, hard to say where the station(s) might be located. CSX has rebuilt the old double track CN Eldson Sub, sure the running is still 40 mph in places . It's between Chicago Union Station and CSX track that is killing Amtrak. It has been my experience, that CSX dispatchers has always allowed Amtrak priority to enter CSX rail.
John, what has confused me is the mention of block swapping at Anderson-which is well removed from what I understand is the route of the passenger trains. I have no problem with the change from using the former PRR track to/from the station to using the former Bog Four track east of the crrossover.
Are the Amtrak cars for/from the Shop left/picked up at the Union Station? In 2009, we took the Cardinal from Washington to Chicago, and I woke up when cars were being added in Indianapolis--it took several moves to get all the joints made.
DeggestyJohn, what has confused me is the mention of block swapping at Anderson-which is well removed from what I understand is the route of the passenger trains. I have no problem with the change from using the former PRR track to/from the station to using the former Bog Four track east of the crrossover. Are the Amtrak cars for/from the Shop left/picked up at the Union Station? In 2009, we took the Cardinal from Washington to Chicago, and I woke up when cars were being added in Indianapolis--it took several moves to get all the joints made.
In 1951 the Monon was running Indy to Chicago in 4'10" for the Tippicanoe and 3'50" for the Hoosier. Not exactly the speed of sound but certainly quicker than the Hoosier State and for that matter The Cardinal.
http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/railroads/companies/Monon/Monon%20TT%204-29-1951.pdf
BaltACDIn 1951 the Monon was running Indy to Chicago in 4'10" for the Tippicanoe and 3'50" for the Hoosier. Not exactly the speed of sound but certainly quicker than the Hoosier State and for that matter The Cardinal.
Historically where Indiana went wrong is it never developed a rail bank for the old passenger lines. I am grateful that Wisconsin has and some of the high speed lines of C&NW are preserved as bike trails or are rail banked. They did the same with the heavier used branch lines of both C&NW and the Milwaukee Road. We would not have a rail line across the Southern Tier of Wisconsin stretching from Waukesha to Prarie Du Chien had Wisconsin not stepped in and preserved it. Likely the high speed passenger line between Watertown and Madison connecting to CP at Watertown would have been lost as well. So would the C&NW Lakefront line out of downtown Milwaukee. Thankfully they are all preserved for future use.
Indiana seems to not have started a similar program and so a lot of the ROW's are gone for good. It's not too late for the state it could start a rail bank program and try to reassemble over time what was lost via land purchases but it seems the state has no inclination to do so. What Indiana has failed to do though also has repercussions for states such as Kentucky, Tennessee and Ohio. Which could also have benefitted from a fast entry /exit SE of Chicago. And that is the larger tragedy of this in my view. Those three down line states didn't really care enough either to push Indiana into action. So SE of Chicago will probably suffer as far as HSR development is concerned due to complete lack of interest.
The Monon went a different way through Monticello and Frankfort to Indianapolis, and it wasn't as straight as shown on the 1951 map. Monticello to Indianapolis was abandoned as shown in the link below. Some of it is now a trail. You can click on the abandoned lines of Indiana to get more info, but in general they are a mess with some trails, bad or missing bridges, and some turned back into farmland.
However, the Monon also went through Lafayette and Crawfordsville on its way from Chicago to Louisville, and shows 3h 18' to get to Crawfordsville. The Hoosier State needs 58 minutes to go from Indianapolis to Crawfordsville, which would suggest that the Monon could have gone this way in 4h 16'.
This would also suggest that the Hoosier State loses a lot of time after Dyer trying to get into Chicago. In following a google map, going north after Dyer and right after the Hoosier State turns northwest on CSX, I found a Pennsy Greenway going northwest/southeast and the start of the Monon Trail going north toward Hammond. Some of the Trail is elevated, which could have been fast traveling for the Monon. Maybe someone here knows more about the Monon route into Chicago or has some video of it.
It looks like the Hoosier State could be speeded up by using the direct route of the abandoned New York Central from Lafayette to Indianapolis. This would take some money to construct, but the recent gas tax increase and truck toll road increase are said to generate $2.2 billion extra each year to be spent on transportation.
http://www.abandonedrails.com/Indiana
Jim200 The Monon went a different way through Monticello and Frankfurt to Indianapolis, and it wasn't as straight as shown on the 1951 map. Monticello to Indianapolis was abandoned as shown in the link below. Some of it is now a trail. You can click on the abandoned lines of Indiana to get more info, but in general they are a mess with some trails, bad or missing bridges, and some turned back into farmland. However, the Monon also went through Lafayette and Crawfordsville on its way from Chicago to Louisville, and shows 3'18" to get to Crawfordsville. The Hoosier State needs 58 minutes to go from Indianapolis to Crawfordsville, which would suggest that the Monon could have gone this way in 4'16". This would also suggest that the Hoosier State loses a lot of time after Dyer trying to get into Chicago. In following a google map, going north after Dyer and right after the Hoosier State turns northwest on CSX, I found a Pennsy Greenway going northwest/southeast and the start of the Monon Trail going north toward Hammond. Some of the Trail is elevated, which could have been fast traveling for the Monon. Maybe someone here knows more about the Monon route into Chicago or has some video of it. It looks like the Hoosier State could be speeded up by using the direct route of the abandoned New York Central from Lafayette to Indianapolis. This would take some money to construct, but the recent gas tax increase is said to generate $2.1 billion each year to be spent on transportation. http://www.abandonedrails.com/Indiana
The Monon went a different way through Monticello and Frankfurt to Indianapolis, and it wasn't as straight as shown on the 1951 map. Monticello to Indianapolis was abandoned as shown in the link below. Some of it is now a trail. You can click on the abandoned lines of Indiana to get more info, but in general they are a mess with some trails, bad or missing bridges, and some turned back into farmland.
However, the Monon also went through Lafayette and Crawfordsville on its way from Chicago to Louisville, and shows 3'18" to get to Crawfordsville. The Hoosier State needs 58 minutes to go from Indianapolis to Crawfordsville, which would suggest that the Monon could have gone this way in 4'16".
It looks like the Hoosier State could be speeded up by using the direct route of the abandoned New York Central from Lafayette to Indianapolis. This would take some money to construct, but the recent gas tax increase is said to generate $2.1 billion each year to be spent on transportation.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.