CMStPnP SD70Dude The best historic example of this was when VIA ran the Atlantic across northern Maine.
The best historic example of this was when VIA ran the Atlantic across northern Maine.
VIA's ‘Atlantic’ always served five stations in Maine and passengers could board or detain at each. Originally…..all passengers were inspected by US Customs/INS. In later years the train was ‘sealed’ across Maine but a US Customs Agent rode the train and inspected only those getting off in the US. Anyone boarding in Maine was inspected by Canada Customs when the train re-entered Canada at Magentic, Quebec or McAdam, New Brunswick.
JPS1Given its declining patronage, extending the Heartland Flyer to Newton on a middle of the night schedule does not appear to be a good idea. In FY18 the Flyer carried 68,100 passengers and incurred an operating loss of $800,000 or an average loss of $11.76 per passenger before depreciation, interest, and miscellaneous charges. An average of 93 passengers rode each train. A couple of buses could have handled the load for less money. In FY17 the Flyer carried approximately 71,000 passengers and incurred an operating loss of $800,000 or an average loss of $11.27 per passenger based on total revenues. Based on ticket revenues, the loss was $5.7 million or an average of $80.28 per passenger. This is the deficit that was made up by the Oklahoma and Texas departments of transportation. In FY13 the Flyer carried 81,226 passengers and incurred an operating loss of $3.4 million or an average loss of $41.86 per passenger based on total revenues. Based on ticket revenues, the loss was $6.5 million or an average of $79.74 per passenger. With ridership having declined 16.2 percent between 2013 and 2018, it is hard to see how extending the train from Oklahoma City to Newton in the middle of the night will reverse the trend. The best outcome albeit not the most politically palatable would be to discontinue the train and run a Thruway connecting bus from Oklahoma City to Fort Worth and/or Newton. Amtrak discontinued showing ticket revenues in the September 2018 Monthly Operating Report.
This is just a foot in the door. The goal is a totally new train frequency departing from Kansas City operating during the daytime hours. Kansas is the state driving it to Kansas City. Oklahoma is just on board with the expansion to Newton, KS
https://www.northernflyeralliance.com/about/newsletter.html
Latest (interesting side note at very bottom about Sir Richard Branson of Virgin Trains having business connections at Norfolk Southern........wonder what that means? Irrelevant to the topic....why even include that?):
https://www.northernflyeralliance.com/Track-to-the-/Entries/2018/12/ten-years-since-resolution-0957.html
I think the KS group is hopelessly naive on costs: $3 million dollars for KS, yeah right. As well as naive on the politics involved......look at the Amtrak to BNSF to ODOT internal fueding.
They might pull it off though because apparently the KS budget is back in black after Brownback and so they are in full spend mode again.
Also, note the Amtrak comment they have $1 Billion on the side to restore the Sunset Limited back to daily service.........someone is blowing smoke there. A lot of this reads like the Wizard of Oz......lol.
In my observation watching them interact with Milwaukee and WisDOT on the Hiawatha service, can't believe Amtrak management on just about anything they state. I think that is why everyone insists on ridership surveys and EIS.
CMStPnP charlie hebdo Um, such as the Maple Leaf to Toronto? And the Adirondack onward to Montreal? One frequency each and paid for entirely by the United States. Not the same as extending a fleet of trains on a corridor schedule at Canada's expense entirely.
charlie hebdo Um, such as the Maple Leaf to Toronto? And the Adirondack onward to Montreal?
One frequency each and paid for entirely by the United States. Not the same as extending a fleet of trains on a corridor schedule at Canada's expense entirely.
I think the suggestion by gotrans was unclear. He only called for extending the VIA train to Detroit, not exactly a long distance and certainly far more potential passengers than your 'Heartland Flyer.'
"What would make more sense would be to run Via trains to Detroit. Go through USD Customs at the station in Detroit, and Cdn Customs pre-clearance at the Detroit station for Toronto bound trains. The money used to extend the train to Toronto could be used to add an additional frequency to Chicago so that the waiting time between Amtrak and Via trains is minimized."
An Act respecting the Canada Southern Railway Company, S.C. 1874, c. 68
Miningman New York Central ran numerous daily passenger trains across Southern Ontario from Detroit to Buffalo for many many years.
"Nobody would care about that because it is privately funded. Usually when it comes to private funding people take the stance that a private company can spend it's money however it wants."
So a lot of people cared. The Central did an excellent job of keeping true to their requirenments.
PS .. as to the other item of VIA extending , well ya never know, no harm in asking. After all we are civilized people!
n012944Or the Cascades to Vancouver. I can't believe it is tolerated....
Canada is not paying for that service via taxpayer funds that I am aware of. It's paid for via State DOT's South of the Border and they decided to do that on their own. Asking Ontario to petition VIA to reciprocate with it's Windsor to Toronto, ONT corridor with no U.S. Funding whatsoever. Good Luck with that.
Had you read the proposal carefully. He stated that the Canadians would extend their Corridor Trains to Detroit at their own expense so Amtrak could use the money for another purpose of expanding it's Chicago to Detroit service. In which case it would not even be a joint funding agreement it would just be asking Canada to extend all their VIA Rail (CN) Corridor trains from the Walkerville stub end station onto Detroit at their expense just based on goodwill. I really doubt that would happen anymore than if Canada asked the United States to do the same based on goodwill.
MiningmanNew York Central ran numerous daily passenger trains across Southern Ontario from Detroit to Buffalo for many many years.
Nobody would care about that because it is privately funded. Usually when it comes to private funding people take the stance that a private company can spend it's money however it wants.
charlie hebdoUm, such as the Maple Leaf to Toronto? And the Adirondack onward to Montreal?
SD70DudeThe best historic example of this was when VIA ran the Atlantic across northern Maine.
The VIA version of the train was sealed after it crossed into the United States until the time it re-entered Canada to eliminate the customs delay........wasn't it?
New York Central ran numerous daily passenger trains across Southern Ontario from Detroit to Buffalo for many many years. The last ghost of this was Amtraks Niagara Rainbow.
Honestly, I don't think anyone would really notice or care. Well, the usual anti-rail and so-called taxpayers federation type crowd might complain if it were pointed out to them, but they already hate ANY passenger train subsidies.
The best historic example of this was when VIA ran the Atlantic across northern Maine. Did anyone ever complain about that?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
charlie hebdo CMStPnP Additionally, I doubt Canadians would stay silent long at VIA crossing the border to serve the United States directly. Do you think we would tolerate that if the situation was reversed and we extended the NY to Albany trains all to Toronto? Um, such as the Maple Leaf to Toronto? And the Adirondack onward to Montreal?
CMStPnP Additionally, I doubt Canadians would stay silent long at VIA crossing the border to serve the United States directly. Do you think we would tolerate that if the situation was reversed and we extended the NY to Albany trains all to Toronto?
Um, such as the Maple Leaf to Toronto? And the Adirondack onward to Montreal?
Or the Cascades to Vancouver. I can't believe it is tolerated....
An "expensive model collector"
CMStPnPAdditionally, I doubt Canadians would stay silent long at VIA crossing the border to serve the United States directly. Do you think we would tolerate that if the situation was reversed and we extended the NY to Albany trains all to Toronto?
GotransWhat would make more sense would be to run Via trains to Detroit. Go through USD Customs at the station in Detroit, and Cdn Customs pre-clearance at the Detroit station for Toronto bound trains. The money used to extend the train to Toronto could be used to add an additional frequency to Chicago so that the waiting time between Amtrak and Via trains is minimized.
Canadian Customs in Detroit is basically a hand wave and you would be fortunate if they asked you what you thought about the weather the day you crossed. It's the American customs that take so long and ask detailed questions and is overly paranoid about everyone being a terrorist or a mule working for a major drug kingpin.
Additionally, I doubt Canadians would stay silent long at VIA crossing the border to serve the United States directly. Do you think we would tolerate that if the situation was reversed and we extended the NY to Albany trains all to Toronto?
What would make more sense would be to run Via trains to Detroit. Go through USD Customs at the station in Detroit, and Cdn Customs pre-clearance at the Detroit station for Toronto bound trains. The money used to extend the train to Toronto could be used to add an additional frequency to Chicago so that the waiting time between Amtrak and Via trains is minimized.
I wouldn't get too excited about the Det-Tor line item. Amtrak has been talking about this since at least 1997. It's just one in a long Santa list.
Having said that, it would probably be the most straightforward to go from West Detroit, taking CP through the tunnel. Then you stay on CP to the CN connector which goes from Walkerville Jct up to the VIA line at Jefferson Blvd. All the switches and track are in place.
Alternatively, exit CP at McDougall St. onto the Essex Terminal and get on the VIA line at George Ave. A switch would have to be reinstalled at George Ave.
Of course, some track upgrades might be needed on the ET and CN portions.
At the Michigan Central Depot, one switch would have to be reinstalled to reach the main line to the tunnel from the station tracks. Some of the station tracks were relaid in the early 2000's for the short lived Amtrak / CP Expressway freight project, and there is a short segment or two that has disappeared since then.
Then again, maybe Amtrak would just use Dearborn as the sole Detroit area stop for a Toronto train. At any rate, state money would inevitably be needed and the Republican majorities in both Mich chambers probably wouldn't spring for more Amtrak money beyond what's already spent.
BaltACDWhat is the economic reason for Newton, KS extension?
Two states that came to the table with small bags of money and Amtrak sees an easy shakedown is the reason in my opinion. Without OK and KS being financially interested Amtrak wouldn't care about the route.
The Amtrak political line is they added a thruway bus connection between OKC and Newton and were shocked at the heavy patronage despite the odd hours it runs at night. So they feel adding a rail connection would not only boost ridership more but tie-in the rail to rail connection and boost ridership on the SW Chief.
MIClipperI think you misunderstood SD70Dude's sugestion, he was sugesting that Amtrak use the existing Chicago Detroit route and then continuing up the the Mount Clemens Sub to Port Heron. It would still be using the upgraded high speed line and as far as I know the the Mount Clemens Sub should be good for 79 MPH, but if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me. From the Canadian prospective this would give Sarnia a second train to Toronto.
Yes, I used to live in Southfield and Inkster, MI. Well aware of most of the rail routes. That would add a dog leg up to Port Huron and then another dog leg across the river. It would eat up time and be less direct.
Also, I think Amtrak has a better working relationship with CP vs CN.
What is the economic reason for Newton, KS extension?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CMStPnPI wouldn't put it past Amtrak but that would defeat the whole purpose of Chicago to Detroit which I believe was to take advantage of the higher speed track. Maybe this will be the first train to use the reopened Michigan Central station in Detroit which was William Ford's idea that it return to being a train station after Ford fixes it up.
I think you misunderstood SD70Dude's sugestion, he was sugesting that Amtrak use the existing Chicago Detroit route and then continuing up the the Mount Clemens Sub to Port Heron. It would still be using the upgraded high speed line and as far as I know the the Mount Clemens Sub should be good for 79 MPH, but if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me. From the Canadian prospective this would give Sarnia a second train to Toronto.
SD70DudeI wonder if Amtrak plans on continuing straight northeast from the current Detroit station, to Port Huron, and then using the CN tunnel to cross the border.
I wouldn't put it past Amtrak but that would defeat the whole purpose of Chicago to Detroit which I believe was to take advantage of the higher speed track. Maybe this will be the first train to use the reopened Michigan Central station in Detroit which was William Ford's idea that it return to being a train station after Ford fixes it up.
It will be interesting how many stops they have. If it was me I would drop a few of those cities as stops to improve timing. Thats why I wonder if Windsor would even be a stop initially. Seems like too much hassle to have two station stops just a few miles apart.
I wonder if Amtrak plans on continuing straight northeast from the current Detroit station, to Port Huron, and then using the CN tunnel to cross the border.
Note that it would be another year before Numbers 19 and 20 between Montreat and Detroit would finally give up their name to the new stainless steel streamliner that would cross Canada as The Canadian beginning Sunday, April 24, 1955.
Last run in 1964 was replaced by RDC's Toronto-Windsor only. Lasted until '71.
Yeah VIA Rail would have to pick up the cost once on Canadian soil and probable equipment and locomotive pool.
blue streak 1 Toronto ? waste of very scarce Amtrak resources for non US travel. In other words not only no but heck no.! ! !
Toronto ? waste of very scarce Amtrak resources for non US travel. In other words not only no but heck no.! ! !
My expectation would be that Canada would operate and cover their side of the route, as was done with the International.
MiningmanMiningman wrote the following post 9 hours ago: Make it so! Holi Chicago Express Batman! Of course it will stop in Windsor.. big city and customs y'know. Can't zip along the CASO though.. that's all gone but plenty of other routes.
We'll have to wait for one of the Canadians to speak up here but I thought that if you take the CP via the Windsor Tunnel then it is a straight shot to Toronto. Whereas the CN because it used ferry service would be a hard left along the riverfront to about the Johnny Walker Distillery, then East and the left is too hard to connect to the Tunnel line easily. VIA Rail station is on CN near the Johnny Walker Distillery. So Amtrak might have to establish it's own station in Windsor or skip it. If Amtrak does build a station, won't be hard to outdo what VIA Rail built....it was fairly crappy one story deal......looked more like a doctors office or clinic than a rail station.
Make it so! Holi Chicago Express Batman!
Of course it will stop in Windsor.. big city and customs y'know.
Can't zip along the CASO though.. that's all gone but plenty of other routes.
I wonder if they will stop in Windsor, ONT or just fly through?
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/04/03-amtrak-expresses-interest-in-detroit-toronto-service
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