ghCBNSVIA tried an overnight train again between Toronto and Montreal from 2000 to 2005…… 10 years after the old ‘Cavalier’ had been discontinued.
A sleeping car train for what amounts to a 5.5 hour drive in a car? I'll bet that guy is still working for VIA Rail as well.
CMStPnPSo what I am saying here there is a difference in market between a single overnight train and a multi-night train / multi-day train that traverses 1/2 of the continent.
A critical difference in terms of who would ride it. People seeking a "travel experience" as Dave Klepper mentions might ride a two-night, 48-hour train. But a true overnight train from Chicago to NYC (792 miles) or Chicago to Denver (1000 miles), Dallas (927 miles) or Atlanta (717 miles) could attract many more people, even businessmen, who are seeking transportation to a destination. To work, it would need to leave mid to late afternoon or sometime in the evening and reach destination by 9:00 or earlier. That was how the old Broadway and 20th C. and Denver Zephyr worked back in the "golden age." That would require much faster track and schedules than are possible now.
VIA tried an overnight train again between Toronto and Montreal from 2000 to 2005…… 10 years after the old ‘Cavalier’ had been discontinued. The ‘Enterprise’ was extensively marketed but with the faster daytime trains now available....people just wanted to be home in their own beds at night. Not in a hotel room....let alone a sleeper. There were numerous discount coupons offered for a sleeper on the Enterprise one-way then return by fast afternoon train in VIA-1 (First) Class but it didn’t seem to work. The only times the trains were full was on Friday and Sunday evenings and this was usually only in the coaches. I rode several times during that 5 year period but there were never many aboard. On days the Enterprise connected with the Canadian....you did have a few more in the sleepers.
One VIA train that does seem to do well in overnight sleeper is the Ocean especially between Moncton and Montreal. Leaving Moncton at 5:30pm….the sleeper fill as the train makes its way west thru northern New Brunswick and eastern Quebec…arriving into Montreal at 10 the next morning. During the summer and holidays….it will have 8 or 9 sleepers.
York1 plans that the extra days of travel will make up for the airlines' travel times advantage,
Which for an overnight train would not be much since your sleeping either in a fixed hotel and not traveling or traveling on a train and sleeping at the same time. So there are 8-10 hours there of sleep / relaxation time where you are stationary when you could be mobile and covering more vacation ground.
I think where they will need to sell harder is the 2-3 overnight trains in fact they might not sell so easily because in that case most people would rather fly than spend a full day of travel on a train.
So what I am saying here there is a difference in market between a single overnight train and a multi-night train / multi-day train that traverses 1/2 of the continent.
York1 BaltACD If a private entreprenuer has to deal with Amtrak (in its present form) the only result will be a loss of investment. If another management team starts running Amtrak then success might be possible - as long as the new Amtrak management was trying to actually improve the Amtrak customer experience. Exactly, Balt. Amtrak's present way of operating has existed for over 40 years and outside of the Northeast, it's not working. It's time for management with an effort to actually compete with airlines and private cars.
BaltACD If a private entreprenuer has to deal with Amtrak (in its present form) the only result will be a loss of investment. If another management team starts running Amtrak then success might be possible - as long as the new Amtrak management was trying to actually improve the Amtrak customer experience.
If a private entreprenuer has to deal with Amtrak (in its present form) the only result will be a loss of investment. If another management team starts running Amtrak then success might be possible - as long as the new Amtrak management was trying to actually improve the Amtrak customer experience.
Until Anderson took over - Amtrak 'tried' to give their customers a favorable experience - with a very mixed level of success. Since Anderson, Amtrak is giving everyone they interact with an antagonistic experience - employees, customers - everyone. Amtrak is actually trying to put their worst face forward.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CMStPnP Here is what I see is the issue with Amtrak sleepers: 1. Little to no differentiation between the offerings beyond square footage and one has a restroom within it. 2. Meal service in an attached diner is included on Amtrak which spikes costs quite a bit when in fact the Sleeping car attendent should be able to prepare and deliver meals without leaving the sleeping car. 3. Well there is the whole toilet smell on the Amtrak Superliner. 4. No real concierge services available via the Sleeping Car attendent even though the technology has existed for at least 20 years and counting now. No IPAD's? 5. Sleeping car passengers have to handle their baggage? How does Rocky Mountaineer get around that issue with First Class passengers and is able to deliver the checked bags from the train to the hotel rooms? Amtrak really missed the revenue boat there. They could have had selected hotels in each major city they serve and got a room booking % in addition to being able to charge for the baggage delivery service. 6. Really at this point there should be touchscreens in each room for food ordering, appointments to have beds made, entertainment, etc, if they can make the technology work on an airplane. Little excuse why the sleeping cars do not have it.
Here is what I see is the issue with Amtrak sleepers:
1. Little to no differentiation between the offerings beyond square footage and one has a restroom within it.
2. Meal service in an attached diner is included on Amtrak which spikes costs quite a bit when in fact the Sleeping car attendent should be able to prepare and deliver meals without leaving the sleeping car.
3. Well there is the whole toilet smell on the Amtrak Superliner.
4. No real concierge services available via the Sleeping Car attendent even though the technology has existed for at least 20 years and counting now. No IPAD's?
5. Sleeping car passengers have to handle their baggage? How does Rocky Mountaineer get around that issue with First Class passengers and is able to deliver the checked bags from the train to the hotel rooms? Amtrak really missed the revenue boat there. They could have had selected hotels in each major city they serve and got a room booking % in addition to being able to charge for the baggage delivery service.
6. Really at this point there should be touchscreens in each room for food ordering, appointments to have beds made, entertainment, etc, if they can make the technology work on an airplane. Little excuse why the sleeping cars do not have it.
All good points. I'm not sure how point number 2 would work out, but at this point it's time Amtrak begins thinking and acting in a new way.
Until they can show a customer:
1. We can get you from here to there in more comfort than a crowded cattle-car airline flight;
2. We can get you there at a competitive price; and
3. We will make the experience so pleasant as part of your overall travel plans that the extra days of travel will make up for the airlines' travel times advantage,
nothing much will change
York1 John
Most of those new sleeper trains in the article are private ventures, which is what they should be. Public money shouldn't be used for luxury travel for a very limited number of people.
Since my wife revealed to me that Amtrak sleeper service sucked, and that she would never use it again........
Ed
CMStPnPSo why couldn't you start up a sleeping car service in the United States and just hitch the cars to the back of future Amtrak Corridor trains? Why not do a back to back corridor say St. Louis to Chicago........then Chicago to Minneapolis. Using a switcher in Chicago to switch the car between corridor trains. Just because IOWA PACIFIC failed at the concept does not mean it is not viable it only means their business model was. I was going to mention in a seperate thread, that in addition to AUTO-TRAIN concept the SLEEPER-TRAIN concept also shows some promise. Especially if costs could be kept within reasonable amounts. Here is what I see is the issue with Amtrak sleepers: 1. Little to no differentiation between the offerings beyond square footage and one has a restroom within it. 2. Meal service in an attached diner is included on Amtrak which spikes costs quite a bit when in fact the Sleeping car attendent should be able to prepare and deliver meals without leaving the sleeping car. 3. Well there is the whole toilet smell on the Amtrak Superliner. 4. No real concierge services available via the Sleeping Car attendent even though the technology has existed for at least 20 years and counting now. No IPAD's? 5. Sleeping car passengers have to handle their baggage? How does Rocky Mountaineer get around that issue with First Class passengers and is able to deliver the checked bags from the train to the hotel rooms? Amtrak really missed the revenue boat there. They could have had selected hotels in each major city they serve and got a room booking % in addition to being able to charge for the baggage delivery service. 6. Really at this point there should be touchscreens in each room for food ordering, appointments to have beds made, entertainment, etc, if they can make the technology work on an airplane. Little excuse why the sleeping cars do not have it. Oh well, one can only hope that one day a private entreprenuer will put the pieces together and make it work.
I was going to mention in a seperate thread, that in addition to AUTO-TRAIN concept the SLEEPER-TRAIN concept also shows some promise. Especially if costs could be kept within reasonable amounts.
Oh well, one can only hope that one day a private entreprenuer will put the pieces together and make it work.
So why couldn't you start up a sleeping car service in the United States and just hitch the cars to the back of future Amtrak Corridor trains? Why not do a back to back corridor say St. Louis to Chicago........then Chicago to Minneapolis. Using a switcher in Chicago to switch the car between corridor trains. Just because IOWA PACIFIC failed at the concept does not mean it is not viable it only means their business model was.
Isn't capitalism just swell?
I think Anderson would enjoy the Bangladesh 'festival trains'.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/dream-vacations-the-new-age-of-sleeper-trains-11553255489
The above linked article[WSJ] appeared on one of the national news aggregator's sites. A toic of possible interest on these Forums?
The topic is, of course, about other parts of the World, and lists 'new' sleeper trains in Japan and Europe; but nothing new in THIS Country!
The American Rail Traveling public and its National Rail Passenger Network, seems to be sliding backwards.
Richard Anderson, Chairman of AMTRAK, seems to be taking the role of, somewhere between that of Ernest Borgnine in the 1973 movie 'Emperor of the North', and the movie cartoon character of the conductor on the "The Polar Express'. It seems he'd rather pack his passengers into an aluminum sewer pipe. on a seat that is barely wide enough for a 7 year old, and a fixed middle arm rest, then shoot them around the country like errant cannon balls. While the AMTRAK role seems to be taking the next step to putting 'news butchers' back on the trains, a la , Thomas Edison; or having fiood vendors, meet the passengers at stations, to sell them taco's or burritos? Maybe, AMTRAK will replace their ageing passenger cars with rollimg stock from Trailer-Train? At least, there would be fresh air, and wide seating; like that afforded to 'Cigarette' [Keith Caradine] as he rode with "The Emperor" in 1973 ?
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