Train 188 Tragic Accident – What is the Complete Story? Locked

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, September 13, 2018 4:00 PM

Good to see I'm not on the ignore list!

Is "taradiddle" in the dictionary?

EDIT: whadaya know, it is!

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by n012944 on Thursday, September 13, 2018 4:12 PM

SD70Dude

Good to see I'm not on the ignore list!

Is "taradiddle" in the dictionary?

EDIT: whadaya know, it is!

 

 

I have been put on his ignore list, it doesn't matter, he still responds to me.  Perhaps he should train himself better to look at it, or he needs to have better vetting of it.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, September 13, 2018 4:17 PM

         

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

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Posted by 243129 on Thursday, September 13, 2018 5:20 PM

Did you ever hear the one about the superintendent who ordered the engineer to ignore the speed restrictions and get 'er in on time?

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, September 13, 2018 8:34 PM

SD70Dude
Good to see I'm not on the ignore list!

All the cool guys are on the ignore list.  Don't you want to be cool?

 The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, September 13, 2018 8:37 PM

243129

Did you ever hear the one about the superintendent who ordered the engineer to ignore the speed restrictions and get 'er in on time?

There are numerous stories from the past of Engineers doing just that, and the encouragement of management was not necessarily needed, some guys were (are) just speed demons.  

I'm not saying it was right, but it happened a lot.  

What happened to the Engineer and Superintendent in your story?

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, September 13, 2018 8:39 PM

zugmann
SD70Dude
Good to see I'm not on the ignore list!

All the cool guys are on the ignore list.  Don't you want to be cool?

I'm so cool I don't need to be on no stinkin list!

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, September 13, 2018 10:59 PM

SD70Dude
I'm so cool I don't need to be on no stinkin list!

But we are getting T shirts.  And maybe holding a convention once the one-year anniversary of this thread comes up. 

 The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, September 13, 2018 11:06 PM

zugmann
SD70Dude
I'm so cool I don't need to be on no stinkin list!

But we are getting T shirts.  And maybe holding a convention once the one-year anniversary of this thread comes up. 

You got me, I'm in, T-shirts are cool too!

Do we get hats and official nametags at the convention?

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, September 14, 2018 8:40 AM

SD70Dude

 

 
243129

Did you ever hear the one about the superintendent who ordered the engineer to ignore the speed restrictions and get 'er in on time?

 

 

There are numerous stories from the past of Engineers doing just that, and the encouragement of management was not necessarily needed, some guys were (are) just speed demons.  

I'm not saying it was right, but it happened a lot.  

What happened to the Engineer and Superintendent in your story?

 

I don't know you will have to ask BaltAcd, he is the one who posted it.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 14, 2018 10:38 AM

243129
 
SD70Dude
 
243129

Did you ever hear the one about the superintendent who ordered the engineer to ignore the speed restrictions and get 'er in on time? 

There are numerous stories from the past of Engineers doing just that, and the encouragement of management was not necessarily needed, some guys were (are) just speed demons.  

I'm not saying it was right, but it happened a lot.  

What happened to the Engineer and Superintendent in your story? 

I don't know you will have to ask BaltAcd, he is the one who posted it.

The 50's & early 60's were a different World than half a century later - TODAY.

Superintendent got promoted and the engineers continued running until they retired - and it should be noted the engineers did obey SPEED RESTRICTIONS as speed restrictions exist for a specific purpose.  Where 'the sky is the limit' was where 'track speed' (79 MPH for passenger) was permitted.  Half a century ago you didn't have radar speed guns and lawyers ready to sue at the drop of a bikini (hats aren't in fashion these days).

         

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, September 14, 2018 10:45 AM

BaltACD

 

 
243129
 
SD70Dude
 
243129

Did you ever hear the one about the superintendent who ordered the engineer to ignore the speed restrictions and get 'er in on time? 

There are numerous stories from the past of Engineers doing just that, and the encouragement of management was not necessarily needed, some guys were (are) just speed demons.  

I'm not saying it was right, but it happened a lot.  

What happened to the Engineer and Superintendent in your story? 

I don't know you will have to ask BaltAcd, he is the one who posted it.

 

The 50's & early 60's were a different World than half a century later - TODAY.

Superintendent got promoted and the engineers continued running until they retired - and it should be noted the engineers did obey SPEED RESTRICTIONS as speed restrictions exist for a specific purpose.  Where 'the sky is the limit' was where 'track speed' (79 MPH for passenger) was permitted.  Half a century ago you didn't have radar speed guns and lawyers ready to sue at the drop of a bikini (hats aren't in fashion these days).

 

So it was O.K. for that supervisor to instruct that engineer to speed?

"Half a century ago" I was running trains and I certainly would have disobeyed an order like that to make up time.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 14, 2018 2:17 PM

243129
So it was O.K. for that supervisor to instruct that engineer to speed?

"Half a century ago" I was running trains and I certainly would have disobeyed an order like that to make up time.

You weren't going to be working for my father then!

         

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, September 14, 2018 3:28 PM

BaltACD

 

 
243129
So it was O.K. for that supervisor to instruct that engineer to speed?

"Half a century ago" I was running trains and I certainly would have disobeyed an order like that to make up time.

 

You weren't going to be working for my father then!

 

You are absolutely correct. He would have been fired.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 14, 2018 4:41 PM

Nope - you would be on the street looking for your next job.

Superintendents at that time were more powerful than God when it came running THEIR railroad.  You are too young to know how it was.

Your forebarers were among the rank and file and that is not meant as a matter of disrespect.  Mine were not - their early years were spent with the railroads being among the largest industrial concerns in the country.  Management of that era was as fully regimented and autocratic as the Armed Service.  Don't do what you were instructed by someone of superior rank and you are looking for your next job - Insubordination - few questions asked at your termination 'investigation' when the Superintendent says you defied his orders.  Managemt up through the 1950's bares little resemblence to managemtnt as is exists in today's world. 

 

         

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, September 14, 2018 4:59 PM

BaltACD

Nope - you would be on the street looking for your next job.

Superintendents at that time were more powerful than God when it came running THEIR railroad.  You are too young to know how it was.

Your forebarers were among the rank and file and that is not meant as a matter of disrespect.  Mine were not - their early years were spent with the railroads being among the largest industrial concerns in the country.  Management of that era was as fully regimented and autocratic as the Armed Service.  Don't do what you were instructed by someone of superior rank and you are looking for your next job - Insubordination - few questions asked at your termination 'investigation' when the Superintendent says you defied his orders.  Managemt up through the 1950's bares little resemblence to managemtnt as is exists in today's world. 

 

 

Putting passengers lives at risk due to being ordered to exceed the speed limit is nothing short of criminal. Had there been a wreck with loss of life would the one who issued that order own up to it? Or perhaps he would not have been prosecuted because he possessed godly powers. My family's railroading pedigree, all in the operating department, dates back to World War I and never,as a kid or adult, have I ever heard of an engineer or conductor being ordered to violate a rule. Your father may have felt he had autocratic 'power' but had someone been injured due to his illegal order he indeed would be the one in the unemployment line.

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Friday, September 14, 2018 5:09 PM

If the Hiawatha was late out of Chicago you can bet it would be on time arriving in Milwaukee or for that matter Minneapolis. The only rule for speed was " Safe and Prudent" 

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 14, 2018 5:54 PM

243129
 Putting passengers lives at risk due to being ordered to exceed the speed limit is nothing short of criminal. Had there been a wreck with loss of life would the one who issued that order own up to it? Or perhaps he would not have been prosecuted because he possessed godly powers. My family's railroading pedigree, all in the operating department, dates back to World War I and never,as a kid or adult, have I ever heard of an engineer or conductor being ordered to violate a rule. Your father may have felt he had autocratic 'power' but had someone been injured due to his illegal order he indeed would be the one in the unemployment line.

It was a different world - you must be one of them 'pantywaist' Lib's trying to apply 21st Century sensibilities to an age gone by the did not have those same sensibilities.  You can bleet all you want - the 1950's and today are two diffrent worlds.

The time was only 50 years past 'The Wreck of Old 97' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck_of_the_Old_97 and the country was populated by members of 'The Greatest Generation' a generation who all possessed the CAN DO attitude when face with issues.  

The PRR's Federal operated into Washington Union Station with the locomotive go into the basement of the station (an angle cock got closed by the forces of operation during the trip) just 3 days prior to the Inaguration of President Eisenhower in January 1953 - a temporary floor encased the locomotive in the basement and normal transportation continued through WUT until the traffic binge had subsided.

On Time was not just Management's instructions, it was ingrained into passenger service employees and had been from the time passenger service was created.  Different Worlds, different times.

         

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Posted by cx500 on Friday, September 14, 2018 6:02 PM

Engineers, and especially in passenger service with years of seniority, knew their territory intimately and places where some extra speed was still "Safe and Prudent", as Randy says.  And the Superintendents of the day were willing (unofficially) to give them that latitude as it kept the trains on time, the territory fluid, and the customers happy.  Derailments as a result of misjudgement did occasionally occur, but probably less frequent in proportion to trains operated.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, September 14, 2018 6:15 PM

About four years ago, I posted an account of operation on a certain division of a certain Class I rairoad wherein it was evident that the engineers regularly exceeded the ETT speed limits--and there were no repercussions. Another contributor expressed disbelief that there were no repercussions.

At that time, unwritten company policies seemed to disregard such speeds--perhaps because personnel in authority were confident that the engineers knew their territories and were aware of the condition of the tracks they were on. Of course, there were times when engineers came to grief because of excess speed.

In the sixties, I personally observed, either by timing how fast a mile was covered or, in one instance, sitting in the center seat of a locomotive and seeing the speedometer needle hovering at a speed about eleven miles an hour faster than the ICC limit.--and the train barely maintained the schedule.

Also at that time, Wayne Johnston(sp?), the president of the IC, was very particular about the operation of the Panama Limited, and if the train arrived in Chicago late he wanted to know WHY.

Johnny

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, September 14, 2018 6:51 PM

BaltACD

 

 
243129
 Putting passengers lives at risk due to being ordered to exceed the speed limit is nothing short of criminal. Had there been a wreck with loss of life would the one who issued that order own up to it? Or perhaps he would not have been prosecuted because he possessed godly powers. My family's railroading pedigree, all in the operating department, dates back to World War I and never,as a kid or adult, have I ever heard of an engineer or conductor being ordered to violate a rule. Your father may have felt he had autocratic 'power' but had someone been injured due to his illegal order he indeed would be the one in the unemployment line.

 

It was a different world - you must be one of them 'pantywaist' Lib's trying to apply 21st Century sensibilities to an age gone by the did not have those same sensibilities.  You can bleet all you want - the 1950's and today are two diffrent worlds.

The time was only 50 years past 'The Wreck of Old 97' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck_of_the_Old_97 and the country was populated by members of 'The Greatest Generation' a generation who all possessed the CAN DO attitude when face with issues.  

The PRR's Federal operated into Washington Union Station with the locomotive go into the basement of the station (an angle cock got closed by the forces of operation during the trip) just 3 days prior to the Inaguration of President Eisenhower in January 1953 - a temporary floor encased the locomotive in the basement and normal transportation continued through WUT until the traffic binge had subsided.

On Time was not just Management's instructions, it was ingrained into passenger service employees and had been from the time passenger service was created.  Different Worlds, different times.

 

So now we are back to name calling? Your 'romance of the rails'  has clouded your view. You cannot tell me that if a fatal wreck as was #188 occurred way back then and excessive speed, which was ordered, was the culprit that there would be no repercussions to the person that ordered that? You must have your head ensconced in a very dark place.

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, September 14, 2018 6:53 PM

cx500
And the Superintendents of the day were willing (unofficially) to give them that latitude as it kept the trains on time,

......until something happened.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, September 14, 2018 7:15 PM

243129

 

 
cx500
And the Superintendents of the day were willing (unofficially) to give them that latitude as it kept the trains on time,

 

......until something happened.

 

Yes, from time to time, undesired events took place--possibly because the engineer did not reduce his speed at a point that he knew he should reduce his speed, an event beyond his control caused a mishap.

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, September 14, 2018 7:22 PM

Deggesty
Yes, from time to time, undesired events took place--possibly because the engineer did not reduce his speed at a point that he knew he should reduce his speed, an event beyond his control caused a mishap.

Beyond his control??? If he "knew he should reduce his speed" then it is not "an event beyond his control".

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Posted by n012944 on Friday, September 14, 2018 7:32 PM

BaltACD

Nope - you would be on the street looking for your next job.

Superintendents at that time were more powerful than God when it came running THEIR railroad.  You are too young to know how it was.

 

 

 

That is the way it went up to the 1970's on the B&OCT.  You listened to the super or you went home without pay and a black eye.  The next time you were out of a job.  Knowing the super of the B&OCT in the 70's that is the way he ran his shop, with no accidents.  His son is still working the railroad these days, and has some great stories.  In the whole six degrees of seperation thing, the son has replaced BaltACD as number one on CSX's dispatcher seniority roster.

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, September 14, 2018 7:51 PM

243129
It was a different world - you must be one of them 'pantywaist' Lib's trying to apply 21st Century sensibilities to an age gone by the did not have those same sensibilities. You can bleet all you want - the 1950's and today are two diffrent worlds. The time was only 50 years past 'The Wreck of Old 97' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck_of_the_Old_97 and the country was populated by members of 'The Greatest Generation' a generation who all possessed the CAN DO attitude when face with issues.

Actually, the Wreck of the Old 97 was probably the best example of when the CAN DO attitude went way too far in exceeding the speed limit to bring the late train into Spencer on time. 

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Posted by cx500 on Friday, September 14, 2018 8:03 PM

243129
 
cx500
And the Superintendents of the day were willing (unofficially) to give them that latitude as it kept the trains on time,

 

......until something happened.

 

And you are suggesting that now, when no latitude is allowed by modern management, that overspeed accidents no longer occur?  Recent history, as you have continually been pointing out, suggests that the accident rate from that cause might be increasing.

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, September 14, 2018 8:09 PM

cx500

 

 
243129
 
cx500
And the Superintendents of the day were willing (unofficially) to give them that latitude as it kept the trains on time,

 

......until something happened.

 

 

 

And you are suggesting that now, when no latitude is allowed by modern management, that overspeed accidents no longer occur?  Recent history, as you have continually been pointing out, suggests that the accident rate from that cause might be increasing.

 

Where do I suggest that?

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 14, 2018 8:26 PM

243129
 
BaltACD
 
243129
 Putting passengers lives at risk due to being ordered to exceed the speed limit is nothing short of criminal. Had there been a wreck with loss of life would the one who issued that order own up to it? Or perhaps he would not have been prosecuted because he possessed godly powers. My family's railroading pedigree, all in the operating department, dates back to World War I and never,as a kid or adult, have I ever heard of an engineer or conductor being ordered to violate a rule. Your father may have felt he had autocratic 'power' but had someone been injured due to his illegal order he indeed would be the one in the unemployment line. 

It was a different world - you must be one of them 'pantywaist' Lib's trying to apply 21st Century sensibilities to an age gone by the did not have those same sensibilities.  You can bleet all you want - the 1950's and today are two diffrent worlds.

The time was only 50 years past 'The Wreck of Old 97' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck_of_the_Old_97 and the country was populated by members of 'The Greatest Generation' a generation who all possessed the CAN DO attitude when face with issues.  

The PRR's Federal operated into Washington Union Station with the locomotive go into the basement of the station (an angle cock got closed by the forces of operation during the trip) just 3 days prior to the Inaguration of President Eisenhower in January 1953 - a temporary floor encased the locomotive in the basement and normal transportation continued through WUT until the traffic binge had subsided.

On Time was not just Management's instructions, it was ingrained into passenger service employees and had been from the time passenger service was created.  Different Worlds, different times. 

So now we are back to name calling? Your 'romance of the rails'  has clouded your view. You cannot tell me that if a fatal wreck as was #188 occurred way back then and excessive speed, which was ordered, was the culprit that there would be no repercussions to the person that ordered that? You must have your head ensconced in a very dark place.

188's incident happened at a SPEED RESTRICTION - SPEED RESTRICTION'S had to be complied with.  Areas where TRACK SPEED was operative was where time was to be gained.

188 would have been violating the Superintendents instructions 'back in the day'.

         

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, September 14, 2018 9:19 PM

BaltACD
188's incident happened at a SPEED RESTRICTION - SPEED RESTRICTION'S had to be complied with. Areas where TRACK SPEED was operative was where time was to be gained. 188 would have been violating the Superintendents instructions 'back in the day'.

Explain what you mean by " Areas where TRACK SPEED was operative was where time was to be gained."

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