ACY Tom To PjS1 and CMStP&P: I had a long, detailed response amost complete when it disappeared without a trace. I'm not going to repeat that. In the past, I have gone round and round with CMStP&P over issues like contracting, in which the Corporation relinquishes control and pays just as much money in the long run to a separate company that pays an extra layer of management and pays less money to those who do the work: The very definition of a race to the bottom. I'm certainly not going to repeat the extensively detailed info I have provided in the past about the work schedules, hours on duty, etc. I would remind you, however, that the people serving you breakfast in the diner are the same ones who served you dinner the previous night, and they may be doing it with only about 5 or 6 hours' sleep. Don't forget, they are not, and never have been, covered by the Hours of Service law. If we are talking about long distance dining car service, don't cloud the issue by introducing irrelevant facts like the low wages paid on other services where the schedules, work demands, time away from home, etc. are not comparable. This is not the place to discuss minimum wage, but I will echo Balt's comment that said we have too many people who believe hard-working people are not entitled to a living wage, and that means one that provides a decent level of comfort and security in 2018. Tom
To PjS1 and CMStP&P:
I had a long, detailed response amost complete when it disappeared without a trace. I'm not going to repeat that. In the past, I have gone round and round with CMStP&P over issues like contracting, in which the Corporation relinquishes control and pays just as much money in the long run to a separate company that pays an extra layer of management and pays less money to those who do the work: The very definition of a race to the bottom.
I'm certainly not going to repeat the extensively detailed info I have provided in the past about the work schedules, hours on duty, etc. I would remind you, however, that the people serving you breakfast in the diner are the same ones who served you dinner the previous night, and they may be doing it with only about 5 or 6 hours' sleep. Don't forget, they are not, and never have been, covered by the Hours of Service law.
If we are talking about long distance dining car service, don't cloud the issue by introducing irrelevant facts like the low wages paid on other services where the schedules, work demands, time away from home, etc. are not comparable.
This is not the place to discuss minimum wage, but I will echo Balt's comment that said we have too many people who believe hard-working people are not entitled to a living wage, and that means one that provides a decent level of comfort and security in 2018.
Tom
We wouldn't need minimum wage people if we had flexible work labor rules, now would we? We have a choice there depending on if the labor union wants to cooperate.
Unfortunately, the American LD Passenger Train has to change and evolve with the rest of the world and cannot remain in it's own shrinking time capsule if we ever want to keep the costs of running the LD network reasonable and efficient.
It's one reason why Amtrak eliminated the part-time bartender in the upper part of the Superliner lounge.
Lots of efficiency to be had in the Dining Car still or for that matter sizing onboard dining car services for the load of the train as well as the time it takes for the train to run and the number of meals served.
Heck they could even get away with a box breakfest on the Capitol Limited no need for anyone to serve it, have the passengers pick it up from the baggage car. Speaking of which I wonder if they could move some food storage from the Dining Car to the baggage car on short runs and just chuck the Dining Car all together. For 200-300 people you do not need a lot of cold storage for tray meals or box lunches.
BaltACDWith all due respect - Amtrak can make the numbers show any position they want to present.
Thats true, I like their ON-TIME measurements. It's not actual scheduled departure time they have to buffer it to be within 10-15 min of actual departure time to be considered ON-TIME. Oy!, what happened to precision railroading?
PJS1The “no dining car” model may be working. Between FY15 and FY16 passengers on the Silver Star declined 5 percent vs. 1.9 percent for the Silver Meteor. But sleeping car passengers on the Star increased 7.5 percent, while those on the Meteor declined 3.7 percent. In FY15 the operating loss for the Star was $41.8 million compared to $33.7 million for the Meteor. The comparative operating losses per passenger mile were 21.2 and 15.5 cents. In FY16 the Star had an operating loss of $30.9 million compared to $31.9 million for the Meteor. The comparative operating losses per passenger mile were 17 and 15.2 cents. In FY17 the Star carried 373,000 passengers compared to 341,000 for the Meteor. In FY16 the numbers were 364,000 vs 339,000 and in FY15 it was 383,000 vs. 346,000. The numbers have been rounded to conform to Amtrak's revised reporting methodologies. In FY17 both trains had an Adjusted Operating Loss of $31.5 million. The overall numbers for the Star appear to have improved at a slightly faster rate than the corresponding numbers for the Meteor. Removal of the dining car from the Star, along with the reduction in sleeper prices, probably contributed to these outcomes. Whether the trend continues remains to be seen. The Star and Meteor run different routes and serve different communities, but they are the closest comparison that I can think of.
With all due respect - Amtrak can make the numbers show any position they want to present.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
"I don't know where those numbers come from but they are not accurate."
The compensation information for Amtrak's employees was provided to the auditors by Amtrak's HR Department and Finance Department.
The compensation for Amtrak's employees was based on 180 hours worked per month, which were the work rules for full-time agreement employees in 2012.
The compensation does not include depreciation, interest, or miscellaneous expenses. Moreover, it does not include the compensation for employees on state supported trains where the state covers the cost of the food and beverage services.
Comparatively, according to PayScale, the median compensation for a Greyhound bus driver in 2017 was $30,908. Adding a typical overhead burden of 30 percent would bring the median compensation package to $40,181. The median compensation package for a flight attendant was $51,200.
As noted by the auditors, a significant driver of Amtrak's cost is the inability to quickly scale the labor to demand. Part of the problem, at least implied by the auditors, is a lack of imagination on the part of management. The terms of the labor contracts are also part of the problem. Amtrak just does not have the flexibility that the comparative rail operators have to manage their labor costs.
ACY TomAnybody who endures the rigors of life on the railroad and settles for $7 to $13 per hour in 2018 is either an idiot, has a separate independent income, or is extremely desperate for a job.
A rather humorous comment since in none of the three examples are the employees spending the night on the train and in fact I believe only on the Rocky Mountaineer are mixed drinks served mixed.........might be wrong there because the serving or mixing of drinks would inflate those hourly rates quite a bit via tips. Also, not mentioned are how much are made in tips.
Also, in none of the above three examples is the F&B management considered part of the train crew as it is outsourced.....meaning they only probably perform the narrrow food service function.
What rigors of railroad life exactly do one of those three examples experience? Other than being stuck on a moving train during their working shift.
As for Amtrak Food and Beverage example. Still remember the attempt they made on the Chicago to Milwaukee runs which was rather hilarious. Pay someone full Amtrak salary and benefits for a 90 min ride to push a cart up and down the aisle of the train selling primarily Candy Bars......lol. I think the most expensive food item on that cart was $5-6 (Oy! why not sell a more expensive full tray meal?...........which I think was the WisDOT intent)
That business model lost the State of Wisconsin approx $500,000 a year in deficit across only 3 of 7 trains in which they offered the "Food Service". Exhibit A in how Amtrak manages food services.......also impacting the confidence in the business relationship between Amtrak and WisDOT no doubt. Because I am sure WisDOT was shocked at how much they were burning up in money.
EDITED FOR CORRECTION: Sorry, meant to state the deficit at slightly above $300,000 a year. Was going off memory, I do not remember the exact number but I do remember it being north of $300k a year at least.
PJS1 The average annual compensation package for Amtrak’s Food and Beverage Services employees in 2012 was $88,970 before any overtime. The average annual compensation packages for the Food and Beverage Services employees on the Downeaster, Alaska Railroad, and Rocky Mountaineer were $21,600, $22,410, and $31,748. The Downeaster, Alaska Railroad, and Rocky Mountaineer outsource their food and beverage services. The contract employees for the Downeaster and Alaska Railroad, at the time, were paid hourly rates of $7.75 to $13 without any benefits. The contract employees for the Rocky Mountaineer were paid an average of $14.70 per hour with limited benefits. The average compensation for Amtrak’s Food and Beverage Service employees was $41.19 per hour. It was based on the average hourly rate plus hourly benefit rate for the highest wage position (lead service attendant) and lowest wage position (service attendant). All employees should have a decent benefit package as part of their employment. But it appears that Amtrak’s benefits, plus hour wages, are unusually generous. In any case, these numbers highlight why labor is the major cost driver for Amtrak’s long-distance Food and Beverage Services.
PJS1 Digging a little deeper into the IG’s audit of Amtrak’s Food and Beverage Services, as of 2012, I found these comparative labor costs. They are eye popping. The average annual compensation package for Amtrak’s Food and Beverage Services employees in 2012 was $88,970 before any overtime. The average compensation for Amtrak’s Food and Beverage Service employees was $41.19 per hour. It was based on the average hourly rate plus hourly benefit rate for the highest wage position (lead service attendant) and lowest wage position (service attendant)
I don't know where those numbers come from but they are not accurate. The hourly rate for 2012 is exaggerated, although I do not recall the exact amount. I suppose adding all insurance, railroad retirement, etc. would increase the numbers. I wonder whether the cost of amortization, maintenance, etc. of the dining car might have been added in there. It is expensive to operate a dining car, but this sounds a lot like manipulation of the numbers to achieve a political goal.
Anybody who endures the rigors of life on the railroad and settles for $7 to $13 per hour in 2018 is either an idiot, has a separate independent income, or is extremely desperate for a job.
Alan Follett However, once, as seems all too likely, the Anderson regeime tries similar shenanigans on the California Zephyr and Coast Starlight, they'll have seen the last of me. That's probably exactly what this administration wants. Tom
However, once, as seems all too likely, the Anderson regeime tries similar shenanigans on the California Zephyr and Coast Starlight, they'll have seen the last of me.
That's probably exactly what this administration wants.
PJS1Digging a little deeper into the IG’s audit of Amtrak’s Food and Beverage Services, as of 2012, I found these comparative labor costs. They are eye popping. The average annual compensation package for Amtrak’s Food and Beverage Services employees in 2012 was $88,970 before any overtime. The average annual compensation packages for the Food and Beverage Services employees on the Downeaster, Alaska Railroad, and Rocky Mountaineer were $21,600, $22,410, and $31,748. The Downeaster, Alaska Railroad, and Rocky Mountaineer outsource their food and beverage services. The contract employees for the Downeaster and Alaska Railroad, at the time, were paid hourly rates of $7.75 to $13 without any benefits. The contract employees for the Rocky Mountaineer were paid an average of $14.70 per hour with limited benefits. The average compensation for Amtrak’s Food and Beverage Service employees was $41.19 per hour. It was based on the average hourly rate plus hourly benefit rate for the highest wage position (lead service attendant) and lowest wage position (service attendant). All employees should have a decent benefit package as part of their employment. But it appears that Amtrak’s benefits, plus hour wages, are unusually generous. In any case, these numbers highlight why labor is the major cost driver for Amtrak’s long-distance Food and Beverage Services.
Railroad craft rates progress over time. One contract builds upon the previous contract, both monetarily and with work rules. It isn't so much that Amtrak food service employees are over paid, its more that the other sources you mention are underpaid to the point of minimum wage.
When I was a train order operator out of Akron, OH in the late 60's my daily rate was approximately the same as a gorcery store bagger at one chain at the time.
It seems as if everyone that has a job paying them to be 'middle class' believes other jobs that pay at the middle class rate are grossly overpaid, as they feature those job functions are of much less responsibility and need than their own job functions.
OvermodYes, but how do you square it with the mandate in PRIIA:
Just some semantics. The PRRIA of 2015 never got even through the Senate if I understood the following link correctly: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/114/hr749
But the complete text from PRRIA regarding Amtrak's food service was amended under §11207 in FAST Act (H.R. 22) which was signed by the President 12/04/2015.
As I said, semantics. The content is the same.Regards, Volker
ROBERT WILLISONCertainly a better solution to food service can be found than the cold food option.
Yes, but how do you square it with the mandate in PRIIA:
“Beginning on the date that is five years after the date of enactment of [PRRIA], no Federal funds may be used to cover any operating loss associated with providing food and beverage service on a route operated by Amtrak.”
In case you're wondering, that will take effect in 2020, which does not give much time to work out what all the options for different Amtrak services can and will be.
I notice that no one so far seems to have mentioned Fred Frailey's claim that much of the nominal loss in the LD dining service is the result of 'criminal' activities of various kinds. It would seem that some of the 'first best actions' to take regarding onboard meal service would be to eliminate, or at least seriously "disincentivize", the various problems in this regard. Whether this might also serve to get around the prohibition on any Amtrak food-service employee losing their job as a result of mandatory diner profitability remains a somewhat ominous open question.
I do agree with Dave Klepper and others that there are reasonable hot-food alternatives that can, and should, and I suspect probably will be tried. I can understand a test program that gets around the question of microwave/convection capital costs and service delays ... but I also understand that expecting sellout demand for sleepers to continue in the absence of hot-meal service, particularly if food continues to be 'bundled' in a high overall price per day for sleeper accommodations, may hamper bottom-line profitability as 'unexpected consequences' -- have we seen the final analysis of the early experiment with the "Mica" diner changes on the Florida trains?
The scope of the IG's Report on Amtrak's Food and Beverage Services covered the NEC, short corridor, and long distance trains. It did not include commuter trains.
Six of the short corridor routes where Amtrak provides food and beverage services were included in the study. It did not include any of the state supported routes where the state provides food and beverages.
No matter how the numbers are examined, food and beverage service on the long-distance trains are the major driver of Amtrak's food and beverage losses. Or at least they were for the period covered by the audit. And it is probably still the case.
I have been riding the Capitol for many years. I enjoy the dining car. I would miss it. But I think it is overstating the case to say it is the pivotal part of the trip. Leaving Washington, by the time it gets to Rockville, sometimes ALL the dinner seatings are filled. Surely no chance for anyone boarding Harpers Ferry or further west. I don't always get a seat. That is the same as no dining car as far as I am concerned.
In those cases, I go to the club car, where I can get a warmed up hot dog or hamburger. On one train they had heat up dishes like shrimp and grits at that snack bar. But clearly a minority of passengers use the actual dining car. There is a steady stream of folks up to the club car and back having sandwiches and so on. The club car was open late, not so the diner.
Not until Indiana will the diner open for breakfast. For sleepers, meals are included. Someone wondered how they tell sleepers from coach in the diner. The sleepers sign their room number to the meal ticket. Amtrak knows exactly how many of diner customers came from sleepers.
On the way east, CHicago passengers can use the diner for dinner, but I pick it up in Toldeo, so we have to wait until 6:30AM for breakfast, Somewhere around Pittsburgh to Connelsville. I think a study would show more customers at the snack bar in the club car than there are dining car patrons. In fact, I never have to make reservations for breakfast. DInner fills up, breakfast never does. The eastbound diner has the same limited seating as westbound, so I am sure not everyone from Chicago gets a seat either.
I surely would never go to the airlines just for want of a dining car. The airlines don't feed me either. Train travel is easy and comfortable, air travel is downright demeaning, uncomfortable, and no treat.
I see no reason to rub Amtrak's nose in it. They know how appealing a nice diner meal might be, but they also know what it costs. I seriously doubt the train would stop selling out just for closing the diner. I would like a heated blanket and a TV on the seat back in front of me, that would be appealing too. Not gonna see it happen.
I sometimes take the NEC trains from Washington up as far as Trenton, those trains all had snack bar cars. I suspect they are part of that profitable percentage. The cross country diner seems like a lot of tonnage and staff to haul around for its limited use. I would lament it going away, but have wondered why it was still there for years.
Again, the right approach would be to duplicate Acela 1st-Class (Acela Business Class?) meal service. Not heard complaints about that. Delivered warm and kept warm.
Alan - I agree. To me the Dining Car is an essential part of the long distance train experience -- and part of the justification for paying such a lot of money for a first class ticket on Amtrak. The price of first class travel on Amtrak will have to be reduced substantially to attract people to eat cold sandwiches in their rooms. And similar things have been tried numerous times since 1971. Amtrak always has to go back to hot food or they lose a lot of riders. But perhaps that is the real strategy here if the end game is to discontinue long distance trains anyway.
Dakguy201 From Atlanta Delta flies nonstop as far as Munich, Venice or Buenos Aires. From Seattle Delta has nonstops to Bejing, Shanghai or Hong Kong. Those routes also contain world class competitors. Especially in First Class, both hot and cold food is an important amenity. In his former position, I suspect Mr. Anderson had the phones of senior executives at his meal suppliers on speed dial! It is beyond me why just a little of that expertise can not rub off on Amtrak. However, it's getting apparent that isn't going to happen.
From Atlanta Delta flies nonstop as far as Munich, Venice or Buenos Aires. From Seattle Delta has nonstops to Bejing, Shanghai or Hong Kong. Those routes also contain world class competitors. Especially in First Class, both hot and cold food is an important amenity. In his former position, I suspect Mr. Anderson had the phones of senior executives at his meal suppliers on speed dial!
It is beyond me why just a little of that expertise can not rub off on Amtrak. However, it's getting apparent that isn't going to happen.
Here is the rub though and shows you how incredibly stupid Amtrak management was in the late 1970's and even with the second Superliner order which they could have easily made the correction. When they ordered the Dining Cars they had more than 60% of the space on the car devoted to kitchen preparation of meals and serving of meals while the train was moving. They could have built a bi-level dining / lounge car and saved significant cost, just by going the airline or bistro car route. However Amtrak management at the time wanted to maintain the status quo and blew the space and the money.
Horribly expensive proposition now to redo what is essentially a full length kitchen car on the lower level and I don't think Amtrak has that kind of money on hand or is unwilling to take the risk. For one they are largely stuck with whatever the voltage draw is on the thing and I am betting those heat up microwave on airlines suck more power than any oven Amtrak has. Any revamp of the Dining car would probably draw a lot more power from the train, which would mean a supplimental power plant.
I would turn the Superliner Dining Car into a bistro car. Widen the staircase to the lower level (though I suspect Superliner Staircases are deliberately narrow for safety reasons of not having someone old fall down a full flight of stairs). Cut the kitchen space by 60% or more and replace with warm up ovens like the airlines use. Put tables in the lower level along with windows. Convert half the upper level to dining area and the other half to lounge car. Drop the full length lounge car from the consist. That is not a minor rebuild though. It will cost probably almost as much as a new car. Plus you would have to increase HVAC, possibly add a restroom, increase the voltage draw significantly. It would save having to pull one extra car on the Capitol Limited though and probably result in a lot more efficient labor costs as it would be staffed all the time.
With it's future railcar design, Amtrak should treat non-revenue space just like the airlines do or even as conservatively as Brightline does. That move alone would save fairly significant operating costs without a huge loss to the passengers of abiility to roam or change seats. Meal quality would still be acceptable and table turns would probably be faster with the airline meals probably resulting in more savings.
Bring back meal stops, ala Harvey Houses. "Everyone out and into the restaurant. Be back on board in 15 minutes!"
PJS1 Deggesty I could also wonder how many of the other people involved in this decision have ever eaten in an Amtrak diner and noted whether the others eating there were coach or sleeper. (You can't tell by the way they dress.) Amtrak’s operating loss on its food and beverage service in 2012, according to an audit by Amtrak's Inspector General, was $72 million. Of this amount $71.5 million or 99.3 percent was attributable to the losses on the long-distance trains. Food and beverage revenues on the long-distance trains were $63.5 million, but operating costs were $135 million, resulting in a net operating loss of $71.5 million before application of capital expenses. Labor costs were the biggest villain. They amounted to $75.3 million or 119 percent of the revenues. The Auto Train had the biggest loss at $13.1 million, and the Palmetto had the lowest loss at $218,000. According to the report, Amtrak reduced it food and beverage operating losses from $105 million in 2006 to $72 million in 2012. Presumably it has realized further reductions in the food and beverage operating losses since 2012, but to what extent is unknown. Amtrak knows the number of coach vs. sleeping car passengers that eat in the dining cars, but as far as I know it has not made the information public. According to the DOT IG's 2005 report, sleeping car passengers made-up more than half of the dining car passengers on the long-distance trains. The report does not say how much more. I ride the Texas Eagle and/or the Sunset Limited 8 to 10 times a year. I usually eat in the dining car when the timing is appropriate. Roughly 50 to 70 percent of the people at the table have been sleeping car passengers.
Deggesty I could also wonder how many of the other people involved in this decision have ever eaten in an Amtrak diner and noted whether the others eating there were coach or sleeper. (You can't tell by the way they dress.)
Sorry to drag this whole quote back but, reading this it strikes me as Amtrak management was, is?, Concentrating on the food part of food service losses. As opposed to the service part that's costing big bucks.
If I may break this down by paragraph, 99.3% of food losses were on long distance trains? Really? How many commuter trains have food service? Just as important, how much loss did they have compared to revenue?
2nd paragraph shows pretty clearly where the loss is but alas, Amtrak isn't allowed to fix it.
The remaining paragraphs are part of what I seriously dislike about Amtrak. Namely no numbers available to the public, at least none that haven't been filtered to protect the guilty. This goes beyond food service and encompasses pretty much all costs and income. I feel that a huge part of Amtraks business failure (not that I expect it to be profitable) is due to obsfucation of the numbers. The public certainly doesn't know what's going on, the government might know more but I suspect that Amtraks internal numbers are so obscure that even management can't figure it out!
I don't think this is a matter of national security and it certainly isn't a matter of protecting trade secrets from competition.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
Thanks johnny, I knew the change was in 1970 or 71.
Too your second point, some one at Amtrak doesn't understand or under stand the dynamics or long distance trains.
Dining on board, is essential and part of the on board experience. When your spending 12 or more hours on board, then food service is importsni for both coach and sleeping car passengers. In my Amtrak experience both coach and sleeping car passengers utilizes the dinner. Certainly a better solution to food service can be found than the cold food option.
Historical note: The January 1970 issue of the Guide shows both the Crescent and the Southerner. The next issue that I have, the April issue, shows that the Crescent was no more, and the Washington-Atlanta-New Orleans train was the Southern Crescent, running through Birmingham. I believe that the change came in February, at the same time that the eastbbound Gulf Wind was consolidated with the Pan American as far as Flomaton.
Back to the subject of the degradation of meal service on two trains between Chicago and the East Coast.
Johnny
[quote user="Overmod"]
ROBERT WILLISON Perhaps the Southern Railway, on their Southern Crescent. Even though they did all they could to discourage traffic in the early to mid 60's. Another stretch might be Auto Train Inc. They offered dome sleepers, drawing rooms, bedrooms and roomettes. Their dining service was buffet style but the train as a whole was good.
Both of these can be very interesting examples, and I suspect (but will need a bit more information from 'those who were there') they both have bearing on the specific question miningman was asking.
The period of the Southern Crescent that is of interest here is that FOLLOWING Amtrak Day, when the E units were painted in green and gold and driven by young men proud of their charges. The direct question was how much time, attention, and care did Southern put into the dining-car service on these trains, and did that change over the years up to the time Amtrak got the train. I was not there, and don't know, but I'd bet that continuing any sort of reasonable service was a Big Reason To Let Amtrak Have It at whatever usurious cost.
Auto Train was one of the great attempts to make private railroad service profitable with a sensible business model. I would strongly suspect that an essential part of this was the 'buffet' food model, or putting it a different way the avoidance of all the trouble and expense associated with on-train hot food production, let alone gourmet dining experience. Very few people taking Auto Train would be on there for the food ... or would be likely to pay the extra cost associated with all the expenses of a fine-dining experience for those passengers who did, in fact, desire it. (It was my strong impression that one of the chief anticipated traffic sources was families with small children going on vacation in Florida, who could pack to their heart's content and then drive their own car around fully packed without having to brave the Delaware Slide and its counterparts all the way down and back again... that's not a market for high-dollar meals in a limited space.)
On the other hand, domes, lounges, lots of cheap drinks for adults and kids alike... there you have something everyone can use, and most will enjoy. So put the money and the customer-service faces where it counts most...
The same would apply to most Amtrak LD today, I suspect.
I am watching with some fascination to see how the 'food' amenity situation works out with Brightline, as one of the promising 'drivers' of co-branding would be to have preferential pricing or availability of some food products for consumption on the train. Vs. the additional turn costs and other potential issues of allowing food consumption on trains in the first place.
[/quote
My recollection of the southern crescent was not a real elgant dining experience, not a 1925 dinner on the 20 the century. Rather a very traditional dining car experience with a cheif cooking on a tradiotradi railroad stove. If I remember the Southern Crescent was created after Amtrak, from the crescent. The southern crescent also had a dome parlor car added to the train running alt - nol.
The auto train wasn't about the diner,but a magical trip overnight to the Orlando area. I made two trips on it, one night in a former california zepher sleeper,either a 7db/3c or 5 db/3c Pullman. Also watching the signals change from green to red in the dome lounge.
Another mention could be scl seasonal train the Florida speacil. Even in 1970 scl advertising a champagne dinner in the diner. The train had a full range of sleeping accommodations including a budget sleeper ( scl version of a slumber coach ) and a np dome sleeper running Richmond to Miami. An all sleeper train running from the bitter cold north east to sunny Florida.
ROBERT WILLISONPerhaps the Southern Railway, on their Southern Crescent. Even though they did all they could to discourage traffic in the early to mid 60's. Another stretch might be Auto Train Inc. They offered dome sleepers, drawing rooms, bedrooms and roomettes. Their dining service was buffet style but the train as a whole was good.
Overmod Perhaps the southern railway, on thier Southern Crescent. Even though they did all they could to discourage traffic in the early to mid 60's. Another stretch might be Auto train Inc. They offered dome sleepers, drawing rooms, bedrooms and roomettes. Thier ding service was buffet style but the train as a whole was good. And now we have brightline. Miningman One would think, even expect in many ways, that with all the incredible rich and important history of railroading, the sheer diversity of all those independent railroads, in a free market system, the importance of it all, that ONE railroad stood alone, resisted being swallowed up, kept its pride and maintained not only its own sense of freedom with service but also a fine tradition of independent passenger service between its connecting cities. Just ONE of them against the McDonaldization of it all, just ONE that drew on its vast holdings of land and property, well managed and fiercely proud of its transportation service, just one that said "no thanks" to the trends, never became one of the lemmings running off the cliff. we are who we are and we are very happy, ..and that viewed its passenger service and its fine tradition of Sleepers and Dining Car Service as not only superb advertising for the brand but something highly sought after and desirable. Do not tell me that is/was not possible in America. Closest to it was Santa Fe ... and look what it got them. In actual fact, a railroad that even attempted to optimize the passenger-service experience regardless of cost would have fallen victim no later than the '80s to 'someone' capable of engineering an acquisition, leveraged buyout, or 'better use of assets' proxy fight action. There is an old 'saw' about the men who manage men manage the men who manage things, and the men who manage money manage the men who manage men. The problem is that the men who manage money men manage the men who manage money* ... and there goes any hope of getting either the men or the things to do anything that does not optimize the bottom line while minimizing both risk and unnecessary expenses. If there were a market for that kind of service, Iowa Pacific and American Orient Express would have found it ... or Carnival Cruise Lines would have created it. I myself ran numbers very carefully for both a 'Santa Fe de Luxe' service to Atlantic City, back in the day, and for ridiculously cruise-line-like all-amenities trains from Memphis to the casinos (and 12,000' airstrip!) at Tunica, MS. There are markets there; just not enough guaranteed regular business to make up the opportunity cost of capital and operations. The key is to get important details right while providing 'the rest of the service' in the most economical ways modern operations research can provide -- in a word, giving a good customer service experience while executing efficiently. I believe CMStP&P has given some good examples of the theory in describing models of fast-casual dining ... MANY of those translate across to the restricted model of railroad dining service remarkably well, with the correct emendations where appropriate. * Sorry, I couldn't resist a little Euclidean grammatical presentation.
Perhaps the southern railway, on thier Southern Crescent. Even though they did all they could to discourage traffic in the early to mid 60's.
Another stretch might be Auto train Inc.
They offered dome sleepers, drawing rooms, bedrooms and roomettes. Thier ding service was buffet style but the train as a whole was good.
And now we have brightline.
Miningman One would think, even expect in many ways, that with all the incredible rich and important history of railroading, the sheer diversity of all those independent railroads, in a free market system, the importance of it all, that ONE railroad stood alone, resisted being swallowed up, kept its pride and maintained not only its own sense of freedom with service but also a fine tradition of independent passenger service between its connecting cities. Just ONE of them against the McDonaldization of it all, just ONE that drew on its vast holdings of land and property, well managed and fiercely proud of its transportation service, just one that said "no thanks" to the trends, never became one of the lemmings running off the cliff. we are who we are and we are very happy, ..and that viewed its passenger service and its fine tradition of Sleepers and Dining Car Service as not only superb advertising for the brand but something highly sought after and desirable. Do not tell me that is/was not possible in America.
Closest to it was Santa Fe ... and look what it got them.
In actual fact, a railroad that even attempted to optimize the passenger-service experience regardless of cost would have fallen victim no later than the '80s to 'someone' capable of engineering an acquisition, leveraged buyout, or 'better use of assets' proxy fight action.
There is an old 'saw' about the men who manage men manage the men who manage things, and the men who manage money manage the men who manage men. The problem is that the men who manage money men manage the men who manage money* ... and there goes any hope of getting either the men or the things to do anything that does not optimize the bottom line while minimizing both risk and unnecessary expenses.
If there were a market for that kind of service, Iowa Pacific and American Orient Express would have found it ... or Carnival Cruise Lines would have created it. I myself ran numbers very carefully for both a 'Santa Fe de Luxe' service to Atlantic City, back in the day, and for ridiculously cruise-line-like all-amenities trains from Memphis to the casinos (and 12,000' airstrip!) at Tunica, MS. There are markets there; just not enough guaranteed regular business to make up the opportunity cost of capital and operations.
The key is to get important details right while providing 'the rest of the service' in the most economical ways modern operations research can provide -- in a word, giving a good customer service experience while executing efficiently. I believe CMStP&P has given some good examples of the theory in describing models of fast-casual dining ... MANY of those translate across to the restricted model of railroad dining service remarkably well, with the correct emendations where appropriate.
* Sorry, I couldn't resist a little Euclidean grammatical presentation.
Amtrak tries to appeal to all tastes, including those which prefer not to eat meat. Looking at the menus of the three trains with full diners--California Zephyr, Capitol Limited, and Crescent (each one in two directions)--on my last rrip, I was able to eat satisfying meals (and those with meat were, generally, better than what has been offered me where I live). Joining me at table were people who had likes different from mine--and they seemed to be satisfied. (Of course, if you look at the current menus on these trains, you will little difference among them.)
I do not recall seeing anything about offering choices as to what to eat that my wife and I had when we rode between Portland and Chicago (both ways) eight years ago. We survived, but I would have enjoyed a breakfast such as I had when I rode the North Coast Limited into Portland 47 years ago (SP&S diner). (Since I took the City of Portland back to Chicago, I cannot speak of the SP&S' evening meal).
MiningmanOne would think, even expect in many ways, that with all the incredible rich and important history of railroading, the sheer diversity of all those independent railroads, in a free market system, the importance of it all, that ONE railroad stood alone, resisted being swallowed up, kept its pride and maintained not only its own sense of freedom with service but also a fine tradition of independent passenger service between its connecting cities. Just ONE of them against the McDonaldization of it all, just ONE that drew on its vast holdings of land and property, well managed and fiercely proud of its transportation service, just one that said "no thanks" to the trends, never became one of the lemmings running off the cliff. we are who we are and we are very happy, ..and that viewed its passenger service and its fine tradition of Sleepers and Dining Car Service as not only superb advertising for the brand but something highly sought after and desirable. Do not tell me that is/was not possible in America.
DeggestyHow does ceasing to serve hot meals ensure "that our customers have a consistent, high-quality travel experience.?"
If the current hot meals are worse enough replacing them with something better but cold might make the travel more enjoyable?Regards, Volker
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