Amtrak 501 Derail in Washington State

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Saturday, June 02, 2018 10:22 AM

Charlie Hebdo is the name of the French satire magazine whose office was attacked.

Je suis Charlie (Hebdo) was a slogan after the assassination to encourage their editorial staff and protect freedom of speech. But that's forgotten too easily.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by 243129 on Saturday, June 02, 2018 3:44 PM

charlie hebdo

 

 
243129

 

 
charlie hebdo

 

 
243129
243129 wrote the following post 3 months ago: In reference to Amtrak's inadequate training program I quote Chairman Mao. " All genuine knowledge originates in direct experience".

 

Mao did not trust experts, whether in medicine, agriculture, metallurgy, universities or other areas.  What were the consequences:  1. Hospitals incapable of treating anyone with more than an ingrown toenail because the doctors were pushed out; 2. Massive crop failures leading to famine and millions dying of starvation; iron and steel produced in backyards that was unusable; 3. Universities closed from 1966-76, professors "struggled" and often beaten to death by Red guard students, with years to recover. 

Referring to Mao to support almost any contention betrays a lack of knowledge of historical reality.

 

 

 

I was applying Mao's quote to a discussion on Amtrak's inadequate training regimen. I am not a disciple of Mao nor do I agree with his 'teachings'. I merely used his quote as it is apropos to my observations. Got that?

Naming oneself after a horrible tragedy displays a lack of reality.Wink

 

 

 

Your knowledge of history is very poor.  I like many others, use that pen name to honor the victims of the tragedy in Paris.  Using a quote from Mao for almost anything is an insult to the millions who died under his crazy regime. Mao, a man who harbored lifelong resentment against experts because he could not get promoted in his first job as a librarian since he lacked sufficient education. 

Who's next? Can we expect a quote from Pol Pot?  Saddam Hussein?  Joe Stalin?

It is a given that Amtrak employees need good training.  But all the training in the world would not have prevented the accident in Washington, which seems to have been caused by the two crew engaging in conversation and not paying attention to their jobs.  The derailment in Philadelphia was the result of the engineer being distracted for some reason and not paying attention.  What training would address those problems?

 

At the risk of this thread degenerating in to a pi$$ing match I shall not address your snarky comment re my knowledge of history.

I will however question your reading comprehension. What part of I do not ascribe to Mao's teachings but found the quote attributed to him to be apropos to insert/apply as a mandate in the training regimen for Amtrak engineers do you not understand?

" But all the training in the world would not have prevented the accident in Washington".

It is obvious you have not read the whole thread. I suggest that you start with post #1 before you comment on something in which you have little or no experience.

 

"I like many others, use that pen name to honor the victims of the tragedy in Paris."

That being the case and using your logic perhaps I should change my "pen name" to Charles Manson to "honor the victims" Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Abigail Folger et al who died in the terrible tragedy in Beverly Hills.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, June 02, 2018 7:25 PM

243129
"I like many others, use that pen name to honor the victims of the tragedy in Paris." That being the case and using your logic perhaps I should change my "pen name" to Charles Manson to "honor the victims" Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Abigail Folger et al who died in the terrible tragedy in Beverly Hills.

Check Volker's post for some factual information re Charlie Hebdo. 

You certainly must have understood how to run a locomotive, but you may not be knowledgable about cognitive processes.  I have read the thread and many others related to these topics or I wouldn't comment. Of course good training in running locomotives on a route requires hands on experience.  But no matter how well one has learned the rulebook, learned the route and gotten that internal sense of timing Balt mentioned, IMO as someone fairly knowledgable about cognitive processes, I don't think the answer to the WA crash or Philly accident was primarily deficient training. 

In both cases there was a lack of situational awareness, as discussed here and on other threads.  But that does not explain why the loss of situational awareness occurred.  IMO, there could be many causes: distractions from external sources (the supervisor on the Cascades or communications from outside); fatigue (from OSA or rotating shifts, as discussed on several threads); attention-deficit/ hyperactivity disorder (quite commonplace, adult spot prevalence 4.4-5.4%; or a brief dissociative state (the very common "highway hypnosis") which might be even more likely in someone very familiar with the route, just to name four more likely possibilities.  Were all these possibilities addressed by investigators?

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, June 02, 2018 8:05 PM

Remember - training trip were made at 30 MPH - not 79 MPH.  Tempus fugits!

         

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, June 02, 2018 10:17 PM

BaltACD

Remember - training trip were made at 30 MPH - not 79 MPH.  Tempus fugits!

 

Good point!  Training at the normal speed might have helped him with the time factor you mentioned (which I think is an important one and which no one else suggested).  But even so, his apparent distractibility or more likely, the "track hypnosis effect" would possibly better explain his missing several mileposts, which was enough to lead to the disaster.

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Posted by 243129 on Saturday, June 02, 2018 10:51 PM

charlie hebdo

 

 
243129
"I like many others, use that pen name to honor the victims of the tragedy in Paris." That being the case and using your logic perhaps I should change my "pen name" to Charles Manson to "honor the victims" Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Abigail Folger et al who died in the terrible tragedy in Beverly Hills.

 

Check Volker's post for some factual information re Charlie Hebdo. 

You certainly must have understood how to run a locomotive, but you may not be knowledgable about cognitive processes.  I have read the thread and many others related to these topics or I wouldn't comment. Of course good training in running locomotives on a route requires hands on experience.  But no matter how well one has learned the rulebook, learned the route and gotten that internal sense of timing Balt mentioned, IMO as someone fairly knowledgable about cognitive processes, I don't think the answer to the WA crash or Philly accident was primarily deficient training. 

In both cases there was a lack of situational awareness, as discussed here and on other threads.  But that does not explain why the loss of situational awareness occurred.  IMO, there could be many causes: distractions from external sources (the supervisor on the Cascades or communications from outside); fatigue (from OSA or rotating shifts, as discussed on several threads); attention-deficit/ hyperactivity disorder (quite commonplace, adult spot prevalence 4.4-5.4%; or a brief dissociative state (the very common "highway hypnosis") which might be even more likely in someone very familiar with the route, just to name four more likely possibilities.  Were all these possibilities addressed by investigators?

 

I do not need to check Volker's post to know that "Je suis Charlie" is the catchphrase for that terrible attack. I also know that your 'handle' is Charlie Hebdo which is reference to that murderous rampage not the rallying cry you espouse.

For your information in addition to " how to run a locomotive" I was very knowledgeable "about cognitive processes" as my work record would indicate.

"IMO as someone fairly knowledgable about cognitive processes"

So tell me where did you acquire your "fairly knowledgable about cognitive processes" experience(s)? Have you been 'in the trenches' and operated trains in all classes of service and been subjected to the extra board vagaries i.e. 24 hour availability and still attempt to lead a normal existence as most of the rest of the world?

The experience acquired in the trenches passed on from those before you is something that cannot be taught in a classroom. The rules 'conveyed' in the classroom can be best understood when implemented in the field.

All of the variables you list certainly can be overcome with proper vetting and training.

So I ask ask you again, what is the source of your 'expertise' in railroad operations? Your pedigree? Your time in the 'trenches'? What sort of experience in the operating department of a Class I railroad allows you to post in such an imperious manner?

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, June 02, 2018 11:07 PM

If you, through your training, have experienced 10 minutes between the start and the need to slow down - but at actual track speed you are at the location in 4 minutes - you are in the middle of I-5 with 6 minutes to spare.

         

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, June 02, 2018 11:19 PM

Cogbntive processes are studied and understood by professionals and researchers in neuroscience, which is my field of training and practice for over 30 years.  Running a train gives you qualifications to do just that, but does not guve you any expertise in the cognitive processes I described. Experience on a railroad is irelevant. Your facile dismissal of the various cognitive lapses would not be solved by training. 

You are said to be a retired Amtrak engineer with years of experience in the NEC, yet when asked why you never were a trainer in the past, you refused to answer and apparently complained. That's odd since you seem to think it is the answer for everything that ails Amtrak operations.

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Posted by zugmann on Sunday, June 03, 2018 12:25 AM

We never had training in cognative processes when I was trained to become an engineer.  Must have been an elective.

 

 The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, June 03, 2018 8:31 AM

charlie hebdo

Cogbntive processes are studied and understood by professionals and researchers in neuroscience, which is my field of training and practice for over 30 years.  Running a train gives you qualifications to do just that, but does not guve you any expertise in the cognitive processes I described. Experience on a railroad is irelevant. Your facile dismissal of the various cognitive lapses would not be solved by training. 

You are said to be a retired Amtrak engineer with years of experience in the NEC, yet when asked why you never were a trainer in the past, you refused to answer and apparently complained. That's odd since you seem to think it is the answer for everything that ails Amtrak operations.

 

So it is fact that you have no railroad operations experience. You say experience  is "irelevant"[sic] yet you comment on the cognitive processes of the employee in a field in which you yourself have no experience. WTF?

Cognition is "the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses".[1] It encompasses processes such as attention, the formation of knowledge, memory and working memory, judgment and evaluation, reasoning and "computation", problem solving and decision making, comprehension and production of language. Cognitive processes use existing knowledge and generate new knowledge.

These are the qualities exhibited by my colleagues who were the product of 'on the job experience' i.e. firemen. Those who did not possess or exhibit the acumen for train operations were weeded out previous to promotion.

Please point out to me where I was "asked why you never were a trainer in the past, you refused to answer". I was never a trainer because I did not and do not agree with Amtrak's hiring and training practices. They are inadequate and dangerous.

You stated that experience  is "irelevant"[sic] yet here it is in the definition of cognition. Your credentials are now suspect. You post on this subject with a condescending tone and attitude yet your posts are rife with misspellings and typographical errors. So how cognitive are you?

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, June 03, 2018 10:00 AM

Poorly-educated people can only focus on typos and trivialities and tend to dismiss the value of education because they did poorly in school.  When you have studied and practiced in the field of neuroscience for 30 years, let me know. The notion that because you worked as a locomotive engineer means you are knowledgeable about cognitive processes is analogous to saying someone who has a heart attack understands cardiology. 

As to your experience, your response as to why you never became a trainer exposes a disgruntled, constantly complaining worker who resented Amtrak management. Perhaps you were passed over for promotion to be a trainer, but you've rationalized this away by stating you didn't/don't approve of their hiring and training.

Your reaction to questioning about this in the past was described to me by another forum member.

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, June 03, 2018 10:48 AM

The French Charlie Hebdo made its bones on satire.

This Forum's Charlie Hebdo is trying to make his bones on bovine ***.

There are differences between satire and bovine ***.

         

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Sunday, June 03, 2018 12:10 PM

243129
Cognition is "the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses".

What you give is the definition of cognition. Charlie hebdo talked about cognitive processes. And that is something different: Cognitive processes refer to a number of tasks the brain does continuously. They are procedures in charge of processing all the information we receive from the environment. Thanks to these cognitive processes, cognition exists and it allows us to explore the world.

And: Cognitive processes are analyzed from different sciences including, sociology, linguistics, neurology, anthropology, and philosophy. As for psychology, cognitive psychology is the field in charge of studying cognitive processes.
Source: https://blog.cognifit.com/cognitive-processes/

So really no experience as railroader or locomotive engineer needed.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, June 03, 2018 1:23 PM

BaltACD

The French Charlie Hebdo made its bones on satire.

This Forum's Charlie Hebdo is trying to make his bones on bovine ***.

There are differences between satire and bovine ***.

 

Too bad you think using asterisks excuses your crude vulgarity and lousy sense of humor.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Sunday, June 03, 2018 4:44 PM

Children, Children.

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, June 03, 2018 5:29 PM

charlie hebdo
 
BaltACD

The French Charlie Hebdo made its bones on satire.

This Forum's Charlie Hebdo is trying to make his bones on bovine ***.

There are differences between satire and bovine ***. 

Too bad you think using asterisks excuses your crude vulgarity and lousy sense of humor.

I don't use asterisks!  I call it like I see it!  Bull droppings!

         

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, June 03, 2018 7:00 PM

charlie hebdo

Poorly-educated people can only focus on typos and trivialities and tend to dismiss the value of education because they did poorly in school.  When you have studied and practiced in the field of neuroscience for 30 years, let me know. The notion that because you worked as a locomotive engineer means you are knowledgeable about cognitive processes is analogous to saying someone who has a heart attack understands cardiology. 

As to your experience, your response as to why you never became a trainer exposes a disgruntled, constantly complaining worker who resented Amtrak management. Perhaps you were passed over for promotion to be a trainer, but you've rationalized this away by stating you didn't/don't approve of their hiring and training.

Your reaction to questioning about this in the past was described to me by another forum member.

 

I will overlook (once more) your insults and imperious attitude because they are launched from an insulated and protective environment. You remind me of one who as a child would call someone names while clinging to your mother's dress.

"The notion that because you worked as a locomotive engineer means you are knowledgeable about cognitive processes"

It is no "notion". I consider myself quite well versed in the "cognitive processes" related to operating trains in all classes of service.

As for training, I was not "passed over", I refused to participate in a program that I found inadequate and unsafe and I continue in my effort to effect change in Amtrak's inadequate and dangerous hiring and training procedures. Mark my words, I hope I am wrong, but there will be more incidents like Frankford Jct. and Dupont WA unless Amtrak revamps it's training and hiring procedures.

"Your reaction to questioning about this in the past was described to me by another forum member."

Oh? What member might that be? Please post my "reaction".

 

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, June 03, 2018 7:13 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR

 

 
243129
Cognition is "the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses".

 

What you give is the definition of cognition. Charlie hebdo talked about cognitive processes. And that is something different: Cognitive processes refer to a number of tasks the brain does continuously. They are procedures in charge of processing all the information we receive from the environment. Thanks to these cognitive processes, cognition exists and it allows us to explore the world.

And: Cognitive processes are analyzed from different sciences including, sociology, linguistics, neurology, anthropology, and philosophy. As for psychology, cognitive psychology is the field in charge of studying cognitive processes.
Source: https://blog.cognifit.com/cognitive-processes/

So really no experience as railroader or locomotive engineer needed.
Regards, Volker

 

I would love to launch an experiment with you and your "no experience needed cognitive processes" behind the throttle of a 10,000 ton freight train on a 3% downgrade. You would no doubt 'soil your linen'.Surprise

Regards, JoeStick out tongue

 

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Posted by zugmann on Sunday, June 03, 2018 7:58 PM

see above

 The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by zugmann on Sunday, June 03, 2018 7:59 PM

243129
Oh? What member might that be? Please post my "reaction".

 

Raises hand.  http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/02/05/amtrak-in-crisis.aspx#comments 

You dismissed the question as "snark", I believe?  My apologies - it was "sniping".

Welp.  I just wanted to volunteer that information to be clear since I was dragged into this conversation somewhat.  I now leave you back to your regularly scheudeld thread, already in process.

 The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by 243129 on Monday, June 04, 2018 8:13 AM

"since I was dragged into this conversation somewhat."

You were???

I see that sniping remains your forte.

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Monday, June 04, 2018 9:15 AM

243129

 

 
VOLKER LANDWEHR

 

 
What you give is the definition of cognition. Charlie hebdo talked about cognitive processes. And that is something different: Cognitive processes refer to a number of tasks the brain does continuously. They are procedures in charge of processing all the information we receive from the environment. Thanks to these cognitive processes, cognition exists and it allows us to explore the world.

And: Cognitive processes are analyzed from different sciences including, sociology, linguistics, neurology, anthropology, and philosophy. As for psychology, cognitive psychology is the field in charge of studying cognitive processes.
Source: https://blog.cognifit.com/cognitive-processes/

So really no experience as railroader or locomotive engineer needed.
Regards, Volker

 

 

 

I would love to launch an experiment with you and your "no experience needed cognitive processes" behind the throttle of a 10,000 ton freight train on a 3% downgrade. You would no doubt 'soil your linen'.Surprise

Regards, JoeStick out tongue

I think it sometimes would help if you took of your locomotive engineer's blinders.

To evaluate the cognitive processes in people's brains the experience of a locomotive engineer are not of much help. Therefore scientists (see my quoted post) are doing it. They look at the cognitive processes in the brain that convert information into knowledge experience etc.

For that scientific research for sure no railroading experience is necessary, not to say it would be too different and not good enough.

I didn't say one doesn't need experience for driving a train just that it is not needed to understand processes in the human brain.

As I said before, take your blinders off some times. Not everything is railroad experience related.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, June 04, 2018 9:32 AM

Those that can - do!

Those that can't develop studies to 'prove' those that can really can't.

         

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Posted by David Lassen on Monday, June 04, 2018 10:15 AM
OK, folks, let's restrict things to talking about the accident, rather than attacking the knowledge or character of the writer. We received a complaint about abuse on this thread, which is usually a prelude to moderation or banning. While the complaint was specific to one poster, there seem to be plenty of participants.
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Posted by 243129 on Monday, June 04, 2018 10:26 AM

VOLKER LANDWEHR

 

 
243129

 

 
VOLKER LANDWEHR

 

 
What you give is the definition of cognition. Charlie hebdo talked about cognitive processes. And that is something different: Cognitive processes refer to a number of tasks the brain does continuously. They are procedures in charge of processing all the information we receive from the environment. Thanks to these cognitive processes, cognition exists and it allows us to explore the world.

And: Cognitive processes are analyzed from different sciences including, sociology, linguistics, neurology, anthropology, and philosophy. As for psychology, cognitive psychology is the field in charge of studying cognitive processes.
Source: https://blog.cognifit.com/cognitive-processes/

So really no experience as railroader or locomotive engineer needed.
Regards, Volker

 

 

 

I would love to launch an experiment with you and your "no experience needed cognitive processes" behind the throttle of a 10,000 ton freight train on a 3% downgrade. You would no doubt 'soil your linen'.Surprise

Regards, JoeStick out tongue

 

 

I think it sometimes would help if you took of your locomotive engineer's blinders.

To evaluate the cognitive processes in people's brains the experience of a locomotive engineer are not of much help. Therefore scientists (see my quoted post) are doing it. They look at the cognitive processes in the brain that convert information into knowledge experience etc.

For that scientific research for sure no railroading experience is necessary, not to say it would be too different and not good enough.

I didn't say one doesn't need experience for driving a train just that it is not needed to understand processes in the human brain.

As I said before, take your blinders off some times. Not everything is railroad experience related.

 

This forum is railroad related is it not? If you want to discuss psychology why not post your thoughts on a forum related to that subject? If you care to discuss railroads and their operations I am available. If you wish to discuss psychology related to railroad operations I am available. If you wish to discuss psychology/ cognitive processes not related to railroads and their operations please do it elsewhere.

Regards, Joe

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Monday, June 04, 2018 11:25 AM

243129
This forum is railroad related is it not? If you want to discuss psychology why not post your thoughts on a forum related to that subject? If you care to discuss railroads and their operations I am available. If you wish to discuss psychology related to railroad operations I am available. If you wish to discuss psychology/ cognitive processes not related to railroads and their operations please do it elsewhere.

The cognitive processes came up on this page with the question what is behind the loss of situational awareness in the two Amtrak accidents and if better training and can avoid loss of situational awareness.

So it is railroad related.

I'm not interested in discussing this at all. But I thought my responses it might help to show the differences between cognition and cognitive processes and that for these differences the remarks "railroad experience not necessary for cognitive processes" weren't the affront you read into them.

I have tried to stay factual but it is not easy with someone how turns arguments into personal attacks. Mr. Frailey wrote in one thread he knew you by name and that he had heard your were not easily to get along wizh. You prove it in almost every post.

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Posted by 243129 on Monday, June 04, 2018 9:17 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR

 

 
243129
This forum is railroad related is it not? If you want to discuss psychology why not post your thoughts on a forum related to that subject? If you care to discuss railroads and their operations I am available. If you wish to discuss psychology related to railroad operations I am available. If you wish to discuss psychology/ cognitive processes not related to railroads and their operations please do it elsewhere.

 

The cognitive processes came up on this page with the question what is behind the loss of situational awareness in the two Amtrak accidents and if better training and can avoid loss of situational awareness.

So it is railroad related.

I'm not interested in discussing this at all. But I thought my responses it might help to show the differences between cognition and cognitive processes and that for these differences the remarks "railroad experience not necessary for cognitive processes" weren't the affront you read into them.

I have tried to stay factual but it is not easy with someone how turns arguments into personal attacks. Mr. Frailey wrote in one thread he knew you by name and that he had heard your were not easily to get along wizh. You prove it in almost every post.

 

The loss of situational awareness in the Dupont disaster is and will be attributed to inexperience,poor supervision and poor training for starters. To folks with experience in railroad operations, not "cognitive processes", this is obvious.

I attacked you personally??? What did/do you consider a personal attack?

Regards, Joe

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 7:29 AM

Is the problem of cognitive dissonance in the conflict that is causing cognitive dissonance or a relatively lower ability to tolerate the stress of cognitive dissonance itself?  In today’s society, I see a growing inability to accept stress as a sort of signature trend. It seems to be a general feeling that life should be good. 

So how do you train railroad employees to avoid cognitive dissonance in their decision making process?  Or would it be better to just filter them out of the hiring process? 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, June 26, 2018 7:36 AM

Cognitive dissonance has nothing to do with the accident or this thread.  Problems in cognitive processes likely did.  The former poster did not understand this.

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