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Gander, Newfoundland, care of the stranded in a play

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, March 19, 2017 1:33 PM

Don't mean to offend anyone, but I've got to go with the "I thought this was about Newfoundland?" thought from another poster.

Oh, and on Japanese agression in Asia?  I've got to go with Schlimm on this one, he's 100% correct.  And ask any Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Burmese, Philipino, Thai, or Malaysian what they think about THAT subject.

"Nuff said.  Can we go back to Newfoundland now?

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Posted by schlimm on Sunday, March 19, 2017 4:36 PM

Paul of Covington

 

 
CMStPnP
I think the preconditions if they extend back to WWII and the Japanese are a little off topic (not to mention stretching things a bit), don't you? I mean this isn't much different than having a thread honoring someone that passed on and then someone posting "They deserved to die" on that same thread. If you want to pull the topic that far off on a tangent then start another thread. This thread is only vaguely related to trains as it has to do with airline transport and international relations so I am also unsure why the OP started it in the first place but since its here, not sure why we had to bring Hitler and Hirohito into the discussion of Gander, Newfoundland.

 

   Amen.

 

I agree and apologize to any and all for my responding to PM's myriad of tangential assertions, with one exception: refuting his contention regarding Imperial Japan's benificence in China. As Firelock accurately pointed out, Imperial Japan engaged in many cases of unprovoked militaristic aggression throughout most of East Asia.  I would add to that deadly toll, its acts of wanton sadism and racism. Just ask the Chinese, Filipinos and Koreans. 

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Sunday, March 19, 2017 5:48 PM

Thanks for posting Dave.  The story of Operation Yellow Ribbon is well-known in Canada, glad to see it being told to a wider audience.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Monday, March 20, 2017 10:00 PM

Firelock76

Don't mean to offend anyone, but I've got to go with the "I thought this was about Newfoundland?" thought from another poster.

Oh, and on Japanese agression in Asia?  I've got to go with Schlimm on this one, he's 100% correct.  And ask any Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Burmese, Philipino, Thai, or Malaysian what they think about THAT subject.

"Nuff said.  Can we go back to Newfoundland now?

 

 

No, we "cannot go back to Newfoundland now."  You cannot take the Newfoundland play out of context of 9-11.  "Can't we all just get along like they did that time in Newfoundland"?  Well no.  The United States tried to be hospitable to foreign visitors, and a small group of them took it upon themselves to crash jets into major buildings.  That happened, in part, because people confronted with the scary behavior of that small group, didn't want to act as prejudiced against foreign visitors. 

Sometimes when you act friendly, it all works out as in Gander, Newfoundland that time.  Sometimes when you act friendly, your buildings get blown up.  There are people who harbor and nurse grievances and plan such acts, and being nice to them won't heal this up.

It's a dangerous world, and the U.S Congress has passed laws giving the U.S. president broad powers in dealings with other countries that may harbor persons seeking to do us ill.  Our current president has acted with those powers in what he sees as our common national security, and a commentator on this forum mocked the president for doing something inhospitable.  Our president has acted on account of recent events that are very much tied to what had happened in 9-11, which is very much tied to the events in Gander, Newfoundland.

Oh, let us talk about the happy times in Newfoundland, and please don't spoil this by giving more of the backstory?  And by the way, someone mocking the president for trying to prevent another 9-11 is OK, because he is a mean person in contrast with the generous and happy people in Canada?

I tried to say that saying Mr. Trump is a mean person for his travel ban would have been like saying that Mr. Roosevelt was a mean person for threatening to deny substances to the industrialized island nation of Japan, that at the time, could have imposed literal starvation on their people, given that industrial countries depend on trade in industrial goods to feed themselves.

I was attempting to draw parallels between saying that Mr. Trump is a mean person who is pandering to public opinion and doesn't know what he is doing with Mr. Roosevelt, who was also pandering to public opinion.  Mr. Roosevelt also didn't know what he was doing -- he knew this would provoke Japan into starting a war with us, but he hadn't counted on the IJN being able to strike at the heart of our naval power at Pearl Harbor right away.

So Imperial Japan was evil (yes, I am thoroughly familiar with their rampage in China, and it is rather condensending of some on this Forum to think that I don't know this) whereas ISIS is not?  Embargoing Japan was OK, but a temporary restriction on immigration from countries where ISIS is getting a toehold is this awful thing?

Right is left, up is down, forward is backward, and if we just focused on the nice things rather than the nasty, we will be better people for it?  Things will work out in the end if people could just be nice and get along, but oh no!  You cannot saying nice about Imperial Japan, because they were very, very nasty people, but then how does this fit in with the theory that being nice will bring world peace?

I am being demonized for saying the Imperial Japanese were virtuous people, when I was trying to create a straw-man argument regarding how this feel-good-about-humanity play is being used by at least one of our commenters to mock the current U.S. president?

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, March 20, 2017 10:10 PM

Paul Milenkovic
I am being demonized for saying the Imperial Japanese were virtuous people, when I was trying to create a straw-man argument

 

Sure, sure you were. You stated " it was plainly motivated by anti-Japanese racism in the United States, along with a misunderstanding in public sentiment in the U.S. of the Japanese Emperor wanting to bring order to a China that had fragmented into fiefdoms of warlords."  You are condemned by your own words.

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Monday, March 20, 2017 10:35 PM

schlimm
 
Paul Milenkovic
I am being demonized for saying the Imperial Japanese were virtuous people, when I was trying to create a straw-man argument

 

 

Sure, sure you were. You stated " it was plainly motivated by anti-Japanese racism in the United States, along with a misunderstanding in public sentiment in the U.S. of the Japanese Emperor wanting to bring order to a China that had fragmented into fiefdoms of warlords."  You are condemned by your own words.

 

The exact same sort of thing I said about Japan is being said today about a different part of the world.  Large portions of the American people are called out as racists and xenophobes by wanting to end the conditions where county workers holding an office Christmas party get gunned down.  The parallels are uncanny.

Tangential arguments?  These are called analogies and they used to comprise much of the SAT test until the authorities decided such questions are unfair because people in the U.S. no longer reason that way?

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, March 20, 2017 10:37 PM

Paul Milenkovic
No, we "cannot go back to Newfoundland now."  You cannot take the Newfoundland play out of context of 9-11.  "Can't we all just get along like they did that time in Newfoundland"?  Well no.  The United States tried to be hospitable to foreign visitors, and a small group of them took it upon themselves to crash jets into major buildings.  That happened, in part, because people confronted with the scary behavior of that small group, didn't want to act as prejudiced against foreign visitors.

The reason the 9-11 terrorist were successful was because the 'accepted practice' in air line hijackings at the time was to 'do no resist'.  To our knowledge there was no 'organized restiance' to the flights that were flown into the Trade Centers and the Pentagon.  Passengers on flight 93 did resist and the plane crashed in Somerset County, PA - not what was believed to have been it's target of either the Capitol or the White House.

9-11 totally changed the passenger dynamic in hijacking attempts as has been demonstrated in several attemps since 9-11 that were 'fought off' by the passengers.

The success of the 9-11 terrorist was caused by the then existing 'normal practice' of do not resist and the surprise factor that the terrorists had minimal skills to keep the planes in the air without the normal flight crews.   Yes - the US was totally caught with it's pants down and sleeping.

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, March 20, 2017 10:57 PM

Paul Milenkovic

 

 
schlimm
 
Paul Milenkovic
I am being demonized for saying the Imperial Japanese were virtuous people, when I was trying to create a straw-man argument

 

 

Sure, sure you were. You stated " it was plainly motivated by anti-Japanese racism in the United States, along with a misunderstanding in public sentiment in the U.S. of the Japanese Emperor wanting to bring order to a China that had fragmented into fiefdoms of warlords."  You are condemned by your own words.

 

 

 

The exact same sort of thing I said about Japan is being said today about a different part of the world.  Large portions of the American people are called out as racists and xenophobes by wanting to end the conditions where county workers holding an office Christmas party get gunned down.  The parallels are uncanny.

Tangential arguments?  These are called analogies and they used to comprise much of the SAT test until the authorities decided such questions are unfair because people in the U.S. no longer reason that way?

 

PERHAPS YOU SHOULD STICK TO ENGINEERING.

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Monday, March 20, 2017 11:01 PM

It's deeper than that.

A flight school instructor thought it odd that a student only wanted to know how to fly the plane but not land it, but felt that he was responding to the stereotype "Middle Easterners are terrorists."  A woman Federal small-business loan officer, interviewed a Mr. Atta, who wanted a loan to purchase a crop dusting plane, but brushed off his anti-female, and "I will kill you if you deny me the loan" rhetoric as simply bluster from a young man from a part of the world where men  prove themselves by talking that way.  Ticket agents describe their visceral reactions of dread and fear in response to the facial expressions, body language, and ice-cold stares of a group of Middle Eastern men purchasing one-way tickets.

The do-not-resist was do-not-give-in-to-prejudice-and-stereotypes at many stages leading up to this.  It seems that the biggest fear in many quarters in the U.S. was not that more attacks would take place.  Rather, it was that all of the educating and preaching and conditioning to not harbor prejudice, especially in light of the Civil Rights Movement would all be for naught as the attack gave everyone license to harbor racist thoughts about persons from the Middle East.

There was a lawsuit brought by three religious clerics who were ejected from a plane either to or from Minneapolis -- their lawsuit got press attention there.  Accounts suggest that these clerics acted like "suspicous Middle Eastern men" as a deliberate provocation in order to, from their point of view, root out latent prejudice against Middle Eastern men in the aftermath of 9-11.  And there are others who rallied to their cause because Free Speech and Civil Rights and yes, we are unfair to Middle Eastern men.

The uproar against Mr. Trump is rooted in the belief that our loss of innocence was a much more serious outcome of 9-11 than our loss of lives.  People will throw the kitchen sink at you to fight for that belief, as you see happening right here on this thread.

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, March 20, 2017 11:03 PM

BaltACD
The success of the 9-11 terrorist

Most of the 9-11 hijackers were citizens of our "friend" Saudi Arabia. And the hijackings succeeded because the Bush WH chose to ignore "clear and present danger" warnings from the CIA Director.  None of them were from countries on the travel ban list drawn up by the wigged goof in the WH.  But then he has no properties in those countries.

But Mr. Analogy/Straw Argument wants to connect terrorism to tolerance. Well, tolerance is a core American value, but perhaps not in your Trumpland.

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Monday, March 20, 2017 11:33 PM

schlimm
 
BaltACD
The success of the 9-11 terrorist

 

Most of the 9-11 hijackers were citizens of our "friend" Saudi Arabia. And the hijackings succeeded because the Bush WH chose to ignore "clear and present danger" warnings from the CIA Director.  None of them were from countries on the travel ban list drawn up by the wigged goof in the WH.  But then he has no properties in those countries.

 

The claim that the Bush WH ignoring warnings from the CIA Director is historical revisionism.  What you speak of was attributed to "siloing" between the FBI and CIA by all responsible investigators (i.e., those trying there darndest to protect the legacy of Mr. Bush's predecessor).  This protocol was imposed on account of concerns of protecting the privacy of U.S. citizens as well as Senator Church's inquiry into charges of CIA meddling in domestic affairs.

The "wigged goof in the WH" (can a person craft a more reasoned line of argument, or would that require too many analogies, parallels, and seeming tangential threads?) wanted to advance U.S. interests in the Middle East by garnering cooperation from Russia. 

Can't have any of that because Russia is Japan and Syria is China and Aleppo is Nanking/Nanjing.  Or do forbid the use of analogies or parallels?

His responsible presidential campaign opponent wanted a U.S. enforced no-fly zone over Syria?  Russia was flying combat aircraft over Syria as well as moving their advanced, long-range mobile anti-aircraft weaponry into Syria.  Systems designed to shoot down the Sentry (Air Force) and Navy (Hawkeye) AWACS.  Russia retains a potent nuclear arsenal.  Is that scenario supposed to end well?

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Monday, March 20, 2017 11:56 PM

schlimm
 

But Mr. Analogy/Straw Argument wants to connect terrorism to tolerance. Well, tolerance is a core American value,

 

If tolerance is the American value beyond all other values, why the intolerance towards Imperial Japan? 

Well, maybe some people merit a little intolerance because they are evil and nasty?  But the nastyness in parts of the Middle East is "JV" league as said by a U.S. president?  Yeah, there are videos of people executed by cutting into their necks with knives as the victims scream, but it is only a few people doing that not representative of the average person?  Where do you draw the line?

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 5:43 AM
[/quote][quote user="schlimm"]

BaltACD

The success of the 9-11 terrorist

But Mr. Analogy/Straw Argument wants to connect terrorism to tolerance. Well, tolerance is a core American value, but perhaps not in your Trumpland.

[/quote above]
 
In blaming Bush for 11-9-01, you may be forgetting that it was Bill Clinton that approved the State Department change in proceedure that allowed anyone with a Saudi identity card to get a USA visa at a Rihadh office of an USA credit-card company.  The whole matter was discussed in a Feb. or March 2002 issue of the National Review, although I understand State Department records have since been altered to hide this fact.
 
The Saudi Governmen has not funded or educated for terror for quite some time, and while their legal system is still pretty inhuman and not up to western democratic standards, it by no means approaches the downright cruelty produced not only by ISIS, but also in Iran and on occasion by people under Israel's supposed peace partner, Abbas, let alone Hamas in Gaza.  The Saudi have had to change, because some of the terror that they instigated in their educational system 25 years ago or so is now aimed at them!  Teaching hatred is not restricted to Islam of course, and I do have to teach neighbors who think it is right to vandalize an advertising poster that shows female swimware, etc.  I consider this teaching as part of my job as a decent human being.
 
America has a problem.  Both the current Prime Minister of Canada and the previous occupant of the White House, Obama, which to say the problem does not exist.  Naziism, not German Christianity, was a huge problem with WWII.  If you study Islam in depth, you can learn that neither ISIS nor the religion of HAMAS and the PLO are Islam.  They are the distortion of Islam spread widely by Jerusalem Mufti Haaj El Hussaini, who began corresponding with Hitler in 1923, was appointed by the British through bribary in 1926, and spent WWII as Hitler's guest in Berlin.  When Arabs through out the European Crusaders, they invited 70 Jewish families to return to Jerusalem.  They also permitted specific Monestaries and Convents to continue to function.  The Caliph of Jerusalem came to the Jaffa dock to welcome Jewish refugees in 1492; and Rabbi Eliyahu Navon represented Holy Land Jews in the Turkish Parliament.  Etc.
 
Trump may have overacted to the problem.  But the problem of Islamic Fundamentalism as an ideology exists; it is a major problem; and many "liberals" seem to equate liberalism as denial that the problem exists.  The New York Times is a great example of this liberalism.  In Israel as well as North America, HaAretz being the equivalent of the New York Times.  But fewer each day here in Israel.
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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 5:51 AM

Credentials:  Before moving to Israel in 1996, I did study Islam with Cairo-trained Imam Muhammed Osman at New York's Islamic Center, first meeting him at the previous Mosque at Riverside Drive and 73rd Street, and continuing at the then new and now existing center at Third Avenue and 96th Street.  An Observant Jew can be a witness in an Islamic religious court, and I was honored by being one of the two required witnesses at an Islamic wedding.  

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 8:39 AM

daveklepper
"liberals" seem to equate liberalism as denial that the problem exists.  The New York Times is a great example of this liberalism.

Utter nonsense.  Under whose leadership were the warnings from the CIA chief of an imminent attack ignored?  Under whose "liberal" leadership was OBL eliminated? 

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 8:55 AM

Paul Milenkovic

 

 
schlimm
 

But Mr. Analogy/Straw Argument wants to connect terrorism to tolerance. Well, tolerance is a core American value,

 

 

 

If tolerance is the American value beyond all other values, why the intolerance towards Imperial Japan? 

Well, maybe some people merit a little intolerance because they are evil and nasty?  But the nastyness in parts of the Middle East is "JV" league as said by a U.S. president?  Yeah, there are videos of people executed by cutting into their necks with knives as the victims scream, but it is only a few people doing that not representative of the average person?  Where do you draw the line?

 

Apparently you and Trump engage in overgeneralizing your attributions, i.e., you rightly see criminal/terrorist behaviors and falsely generalize those behaviors to the entire "class" to which the criminals/terrorists belong.

Your analogy of Trump's actions with halting scrap metal sales to Imperial Japan is false because the first was applied to citizens of nations which have not committed any acts to war or terror, while the second was applied to a government which was at war with its neighbors.  Judicial review occurred in the case of Trump's act while no person or body made a legal challenge of FDR's acts.  Whether or not Trump's actions are upheld on further appeal is TBD. A strong case can be made in either direction.  

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Posted by cx500 on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 10:06 AM

Paul Milenkovic
 

Honoring the folks in Gander?  The back story to that play is the most horrific attack on the continental U.S. since the British burned down D.C., and any discussion of the preconditions providing the predicate for that attack are out-of-order?

 

Of course, since you mention the British burning down the White House, perhaps it should also be mentioned that particular war was started by the USA.  They invaded the area that is now known as eastern Canada.  The Canadians of that time were fairly successful in repelling the unprovoked aggression, with some help from the mother country, and battles took place both sides of the border.  The eventual peace returned the status quo.  I rather suspect the American educational system may play down how aggressive and imperialistic the USA was in the 19th century.   A half century after the war of 1812-1814 the attitude was still in place, as the US provided a safe haven for terrorist activities aimed at Canada, known as the Fenian Raids, in the late 1860s.

Meanwhile, back to Gander and the wonderful Newfies.  I was able to visit in the dying days of the railway, and then continued to visit the province regularly until a job transfer moved me some 3,000 miles away instead of only 900.

John

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Posted by RME on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 10:12 AM

schlimm
Under whose leadership were the warnings from the CIA chief of an imminent attack ignored?

Bill Clinton's.  I thought that had been established beyond any doubt.

It's easy for armchair 'historians' to put more credence in intelligence reports that turn out to be right (with 20/20 hindsight) than those with actual experience in intelligence analysis do.  Compare, for instance, all the other 'warnings of imminent attacks' in the time period leading up to the 9/11 attacks, some of which had considerably higher apparent urgency than reports that foreign students learning to fly heavy aircraft weren't learning to land them, etc.

There was a very useful 'slip' in the coverage of the Lockerbie accident hearings, which may or not have been "expunged" from the official record -- it concerned the number of actual plots carried into execution that were stopped in the week during which the improvised explosive device was allowed onto Pan Am 104.  Assume, even if you have no foreign-policy experience, that all those were viewed and treated as 'imminent' threats ... and I have no hesitation in 'speculating' that for every one of these that involved demonstrated hard intelligence there were others, perhaps many others, that appeared to involve less compelling short-term urgency.

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Posted by RME on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 10:31 AM

schlimm
Your analogy of Trump's actions with halting scrap metal sales to Imperial Japan is false because the first was applied to citizens of nations which have not committed any acts to war or terror, while the second was applied to a government which was at war with its neighbors.

Just for the record, my understanding was that it was the unpredicted full moratorium/embargo on oil exports that was the problem leading to the Japanese war action, not a cutoff of continued scrap-metal sales -- we'd sent Japan plenty of scrap by then -- and that at least in part the co-prosperity sphere expansion against the Dutch was to secure oil reserves on a more 'emergency' basis than might (note I say 'might') have prevailed had the United States opted to tie continued (or even reduced) shipments of American oil to 'human rights' concerns in China, or elsewhere.  (Not that I think we wouldn't have had to go to war with the militarized Japanese government in the Pacific at some point, perhaps on much more difficult terms.  Or that we'd have seen the million or more casualties from a forced invasion of the Japanese home islands, afterward, absent the bombs and the Russian invasion of Manchuria...)

I'd be very surprised at the assertion that all the people eager to enter the United States from the 'banned' nations did not contain representative 'citizens' or groups interested in 'committing acts of war or terror'. 

Judicial review occurred in the case of Trump's act while no person or body made a legal challenge of FDR's acts.

In the immediate wake of the court-packing issue?  You expected there would be open "judicial review" of the current politically-motivated types?  That's a kind of historical relativism that would be breathtaking if it were so little historiographically justifiable.

Whether or not Trump's actions are upheld on further appeal is TBD.

And rightly so; the initial 'ban' was and continues to be 'justified' (and, often, attacked) on grounds very different from the operative one, and the 'revised' ban is not much better.

A major part of the concern over ... how can I put this without myself making stupid ideological oversimplification ... short-term immigration or 'refugee' admission to the United States concerned the previous administration's excessively lenient oversight of potential candidates and groups.  The purpose of the ban appears to be cutting off all likelihood of allowing 'wrong' people into the country during the weeks or months needed to craft an effective system to vet immigration, and if I were taking office I might be even more stringent in stopping certain 'groups' in the short term than the Trump wackiness has been. 

Do I trust Trump to put better and fairer policies in place?  Not really.  Do I think there will continue to be distortions of what I was raised to understand as Constitutional rights to freedom of religious expression?  Yes, I do.  But those are scarcely reasons to cherry-pick the most egregious 'human' failures of Trump's bans as if they represented the overt preference of the incoming administration to trample on civil rights and human dignity, and quietly encourage judicial activism contrary to historical separation of powers largely for ideological reasons, or worse.

A strong case can be made in either direction

I wish the strong case could be made in fair and open language, with at least the goal of establishing a full coherent immigration and refugee policy (including special accommodations), instead of the current continuation of a bunch of petulant children jockeying for their own notions of special privilege.

Sheesh! how did we get so far off railroads (other than 'where the elevated railroads in New York went') and, worse, how did we get so far off civilized and reasoned discourse!  Perhaps we should lock the Gander thread here, and find a better reason to discuss either our Far East policy in the Roosevelt years or Trump's evolving policies regarding foreign immigration.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:08 AM

Schlimm:  You did not note that I put "liberal" in quotes.  Obvioiusly, I am not putting all or even most Liberals with a capitol L as "soft on Islamic Fundamentalism."  But Jews do seem to make the best anti-Semites, with this tiny minority of a Jewish minority actually engaging in Holocaust Denial and along with it going along with those Arabs that say we Jews are just a religion and have no right whatsoever to claim any ownership of any near-eastern real-estate.  That is assuming that Jews (or Christians for that matter) should be permitted to live without converting to Islam.  Arafat and his successor Abbas are tolerant of Jews as long as they do not live in the near-east, whereas Hamas and ISIS are only satisfied with everyone being Muhamiden.

Jewish anti-Semites?   Kalt, Mershimer, Soros, and there are others.  Soros, as you may know, passed as an Aryan during WWII and helped the Nazis delivering deportation orders sending Jews to the gas chambers.  So now he supports all the organizations that have been labeled as "left wing" or liberal (and I did not do the labeling) that say the "Palestinians" are the rightous ones and we Jews living in Israel, on either side of the 1948-1967 Armistice Lines, are colonial occupiers.  Do you believe that?  Some Reform Rabbis appear to believe just that.  And call themselves liberals.

For me, Zionism started when the 70 Jewish families returned to Jerusalem, invited by the Muslim Arabs, and the quarrel is a 100-year-old product of Colonialism, worsened by Nazism and Communist anti-Semitic messengers, with the Grand Mufti the pivotal figure.   That is my take, and some Arab friends agree.  If the cause had been understood way back when, and the problem of Islamic Fundamentalism attacked even as late as after the 1967 Six-Day War, we would not have the refugee problem, the Iranian Nuclear Threat, or ISIS.  

Anyway, if religions fight among each other and teach hate, we will probably all end up being econmic slaves of the Chinese Securalists.  Example, Israel intending to send billions to China for a railroad, with tunnels and bridges essential, to Elat instead of spending a fraction of the money to modernize and standard gauge Jordan's system and constructing the very short links between Oran and the Jordanian Akaba line and between Akaba and Elat.

For a slice of Jerusalem Jewish life in the era before the British Mandate, I recommend the wonderful film I Love You Rosa, Hebrew with English subtitles.  It is true to the good neighborliness between Jews and Arabs.  I find it fortunate that the same condition exists with our Yeshiva's good neighbors. 

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 12:21 PM

   OK, now let's start a discussion of the Spanish-American War.

_____________

   My mind's made up.   Don't confuse me with the facts.

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 12:37 PM

RME
RME wrote the following post 2 hours ago: schlimm Under whose leadership were the warnings from the CIA chief of an imminent attack ignored? Bill Clinton's.  I thought that had been established beyond any doubt. It's easy for armchair 'historians' to put more credence in intelligence reports that turn out to be right (with 20/20 hindsight) than those with actual experience in intelligence analysis do.  Compare, for instance, all the other 'warnings of imminent attacks' in the time period leading up to the 9/11 attacks, some of which had considerably higher apparent urgency than reports that foreign students learning to fly heavy aircraft weren't learning to land them, etc.

The warnings to Bush and Rice from George Tenet and Cofer Black were clear but ignored/dismissed.  

CIA Warnings pre-9-11.

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 12:50 PM

RME
I'd be very surprised at the assertion that all the people eager to enter the United States from the 'banned' nations did not contain representative 'citizens' or groups interested in 'committing acts of war or terror'. 

Judicial review occurred in the case of Trump's act while no person or body made a legal challenge of FDR's acts. In the immediate wake of the court-packing issue?  You expected there would be open "judicial review" of the current politically-motivated types?  That's a kind of historical relativism that would be breathtaking if it were so little historiographically justifiable.

#1.  Who asserted that?  My point was that excluding all people from a nation having an Muslim population is a form of over-generlizing usually called for what it is - bigotry and/or racism - especially when those countries have not produced any of the terrorists who have attacked the US.  Nor were the nations that produced most of the 9-11 terrorists part of that list.

#2 FDR's attempt to pack the court was rebuffed.  Any citizen or corporation could have challenged FDR on the oil or scrap metal embargo.  And you missed the essential fact that distinguished Imperial Japan from the "7" on Trump's list.  None of those nations are at war with their neighbors while Japan clearly had invaded China several years earlier, even if PM wants to state it was a mission to restore law and order to warlord-divided China.

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 1:20 PM

daveklepper
Jewish anti-Semites?   Kalt, Mershimer, Soros, and there are others.  Soros, as you may know, passed as an Aryan during WWII and helped the Nazis delivering deportation orders sending Jews to the gas chambers.  So now he supports all the organizations that have been labeled as "left wing" or liberal

Smearing folks who oppose Israeli policies is beneath you. Soros does admit that his family, like many upper-middle class non-observant Jewish families at that time, was "anti-Semitic" in attitude.  But during German occupation 1944-45, Soros was only 13-14. His father helped save many Jews. "Jewish children were barred from attending school by the Nazis, and Soros and the other schoolchildren were made to report to the Judenrat ("Jewish Council") which had been established during the occupation. Soros later described this time to writer Michael Lewis: "The Jewish Council asked the little kids to hand out the deportation notices. I was told to go to the Jewish Council. And there I was given these small slips of paper.... I took this piece of paper to my father. He instantly recognized it. This was a list of Hungarian Jewish lawyers. He said, "You deliver the slips of paper and tell the people that if they report they will be deported. Soros never returned to this job."  

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 2:16 PM
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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 3:18 PM

Ah yes, the late, great Carl Barks, Disney's finest cartoonist! Maybe this should be in the MR forum but I do recall a story he wrote that involved model trains used to take the money out of Uncle Scrooge's vault before the floor collapsed and sent it all to the centre of the earth. Good fun! Now, back to the heated discussion. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:58 PM

I have every right to call a spade a spade.  Soros funds people who deny the Holocaust existed.  This goes beyond criticising Israeli policies.  And his own criticism is based on outright lies.  Anyone backing a BDS campaign against Israel without a similar campaign against far worse human-right violators is an anti-Semite in my book.  And he was not acting as a Jewish teenager, because he was living with a non-Jewish family where the father was actualy a local German appointed official.

Jewish partisans (and partisans of all Christian demoninations, and even Communists) fighting the Nazis did not go into German shools to kill children or slaughter woman in children in their beds. Abass honors people who do just that and educates children to consider such behaviour honorable.  I am sorry that telling the truth hurts you, but the situation hurts me a lot more, I assure you.  Because I do not hate Arabs, and those who studied the situation are truly our friends.

A former Russian Jewish refugee who lives in San Diego, received an invitation from his synagogue to attend an event geared toward helping the Muslim refugees.

He replied:

Dear Jewish Federation, Anti Defamation League,

Unfortunately I will not be able to attend this evening’s “Immigrants and Refugees, a Jewish call to action” community event that you are organizing. In lieu of attending. However, I would like to share some thoughts I have on the subject. I hope that you take those thoughts into consideration both in tonight’s program as well as any further community outreach programs.

As a former refugee myself I believe I have some valuable insights to add to this discussion. I presume that the current call to action and tonight’s discussion were spurred by the recent temporary ban placed by President Trump on entrants from the following 7 countries: Yemen, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Somalia and Lybia. There have been some very emotional claims made about this ban both in the media as well as Jewish community so I think it would be useful to analyze the facts.

The seven aforementioned countries all share one common thread, they are hotbeds of Islamic Extremism whose main aim is to wipe out western civilization as we know it and more specifically to wipe out the Jews. Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Lybia and Sudan are failed states where the concept of verifiable, trustworthy official documents no longer exists. Iran is the world’s leading sponsor of terrorism which denies Holocaust and openly calls for the destruction of state of Israel and eventually U.S. Essentially all of the ranking security officials in Homeland Security, FBI and CIA have stated that it is impossible to properly vet citizens of those countries and all of them pose a potential threat to the safety and security of our homeland and its citizens. While it is undeniable that the citizens of those countries, the ones that are still alive, have suffered unimaginable horrors and persecution at the hands of their countrymen and many would like to leave, that does not make United States of America responsible for their fate.

It has been claimed by many in the media that the refugees from those
countries do not pose any risk whatsoever and have never committed any
atrocities in the U.S. The facts simply do not bear this out. Leaving
aside the numerous atrocities perpetrated by Muslim immigrants and
refugees in Europe (which would take pages to document), here is a
brief list of the most recent atrocities committed in U.S by Muslim
refugees and immigrants:
· Somali refugee Abdul Razak Ali Artan went on a jihadi stabbing
rampage at Ohio State.
· In 2016, an Iraqi refugee Omar Faraj Saeed Al Hardan was accused of
planning to bomb a local mall in Texas.
· In September 2016, a Somali refugee named Dahir Adan went on a
stabbing spree at a mall in St. Cloud, Minnesota.
· Somali refugee, Mohamed Osman Mohamed, was arrested for planning to
blow up a Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Oregon back in 2010.
· In 2012, Abdullatif Ali Aldosary, an Iraqi refugee, bombed a Social
Security Office in Arizona.
· Two Iraqi refugees were convicted for having aided Al-Qaeda in Iraq
to kill American servicemen. These so called “refugees,” lied on their
applications, and as proof that the screening process is ineffective,
were allowed entry without issue.
· Both Boston Bombers were refugees. The Tsarnaev brothers were
brought here courtesy of your paycheck, killing and maiming innocents
as a result.
I should add that Omar Mateen, perpetrator of one of the biggest mass
murders in U.S history, was a son of an Afghani refugee.
The bottom line is that there is a clear, direct and bloody evidence
that the immigrants and refugees from the seven countries on President
Trumps’ list pose a direct and clear danger to us.

In your appeal for this event, you seem to be drawing on Holocaust,
making direct connection and comparisons to the Jewish refugees of
1930’ and 40s with the current wave of Muslim refugees. That is deeply
troubling, inaccurate and plain offensive. First this kind of
comparison cheapens and degrades the memory of the Holocaust. The
Jewish refugees of 30’s and 40’s were rejected by this country
squarely on the basis of antisemitism that was deeply prevalent in
Rosevelt administration as well as U.S overall. Israel did not exist,
the Jewish community in U.S was fairly powerless and the entire world
shut its doors motivated by antisemitism. The muslim refugees of today
are being temporarily restricted as they pose a concrete, stated,
proven and real danger to the citizens of this country. Furthermore,
there are multiple very wealthy Arab countries that can easily take
them but have refused to take even a single soul and have not helped
them at all. Saudi Arabia has stated that it will build 200 mosques in
Germany but will not spend a dollar to take in a single refugee. The
Arabs won’t take them, why should we?

Second, as a former refugee myself, I am deeply offended by your
implication that all refugees are created equal. That is also simply
not true. The European refugees like ourselves, came here to
integrate, to contribute and to help build this country, founded on
Judeo-Christian values. The Muslim refugees from the seven countries
as well as Arab world in general, are coming as part of the stealth
Jihad whose goal is a total destruction of Western civilization as we
know it. Is that what we as Jews want to enable?

Finally, you may argue that not all refugees subscribe to the
nihilistic, apocalyptic vision of Islam and its drive to dominate the
world. Perhaps you are right. But as the father of three young
children and a husband of a beautiful wife, do I really want to play
Russian Roulette with the lives of my loved ones? Do I really want to
create another Sweden here where women are attacked and molested
regularly and are now told to avoid public pools and to change the way
they dress? Or perhaps you would like me to take a chance on creating
another Austria here where a 10 year boy gets raped by one of the
recently admitted refugees?

Finally, let’s talk about the Jewish aspect of all of this. In your
appeal, you make a point that “Jewish history and tradition puts us at
the forefront of welcoming the stranger”. While that is certainly
true, our Jewish tradition does not call for actions that endanger
one’s life and in fact the sanctity of one’s life takes precedence
over all other actions. As you appear to be in search of a worthy
cause that can unite and bring out the best in our community may I
suggest the following possible causes and offer to be the first to
volunteer to contribute to and support:

– Let’s help the poor Jews of Eastern Ukraine, caught in the
crossfire, struggling to survive.
– Let’s help the West European Jews, cowering in their homes, under
24/7 protection from the Muslim hordes all around them. Let’s help
those who want to immigrate to Israel
– Let’s help the Argentine Jews, victims of brutal Hezbollah attacks
as well as persistent, institutionalized antisemitism
– Let’s double our efforts to help all of Israeli war widows, whose
husbands perished protecting Am Israel
– Let’s raise funds for the few gentiles still alive designated as
“righteous among nations”, many of whom are barely making ends meet in
Eastern Europe
– Let’s pledge to double out support to Friends of IDF organization
that takes care of lonely warriors in IDF who are risking their lives
to protect us
– Let’s create a fund for the family of Halal Yaffa Ariel, a 12 year
old girl recently murdered by Muslim terrorist in Israel
– Let’s start a fund for the family of Ilan Halevi, a French Jew,
brutally tortured for weeks and then murdered in the most gruesome way
by his Muslim countrymen, many of them former refugees and immigrants.
– Let’s create a fund for the remaining family members of the family
in Itamar most of whom were murdered by Muslim terrorists in Israel
– Let’s start a campaign to protest the fact that at least 16 Arab
countries don’t allow anyone with Israeli stamps in their passport
into their country.
– Let’s publicize the fact that Iran, on their visa
application, forbids entry to anyone who visited “Palestinian Occupied
Territories” in the last year.

 A former Russian Jewish refugee who lives in San Diego, received an invitation from his synagogue to attend an event geared toward helping the Muslim refugees.

He replied:

Dear Jewish Federation, Anti Defamation League,

Unfortunately I will not be able to attend this evening’s “Immigrants and Refugees, a Jewish call to action” community event that you are organizing. In lieu of attending. However, I would like to share some thoughts I have on the subject. I hope that you take those thoughts into consideration both in tonight’s program as well as any further community outreach programs.

As a former refugee myself I believe I have some valuable insights to add to this discussion. I presume that the current call to action and tonight’s discussion were spurred by the recent temporary ban placed by President Trump on entrants from the following 7 countries: Yemen, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Somalia and Lybia. There have been some very emotional claims made about this ban both in the media as well as Jewish community so I think it would be useful to analyze the facts.

The seven aforementioned countries all share one common thread, they are hotbeds of Islamic Extremism whose main aim is to wipe out western civilization as we know it and more specifically to wipe out the Jews. Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Lybia and Sudan are failed states where the concept of verifiable, trustworthy official documents no longer exists. Iran is the world’s leading sponsor of terrorism which denies Holocaust and openly calls for the destruction of state of Israel and eventually U.S. Essentially all of the ranking security officials in Homeland Security, FBI and CIA have stated that it is impossible to properly vet citizens of those countries and all of them pose a potential threat to the safety and security of our homeland and its citizens. While it is undeniable that the citizens of those countries, the ones that are still alive, have suffered unimaginable horrors and persecution at the hands of their countrymen and many would like to leave, that does not make United States of America responsible for their fate.

It has been claimed by many in the media that the refugees from those
countries do not pose any risk whatsoever and have never committed any
atrocities in the U.S. The facts simply do not bear this out. Leaving
aside the numerous atrocities perpetrated by Muslim immigrants and
refugees in Europe (which would take pages to document), here is a
brief list of the most recent atrocities committed in U.S by Muslim
refugees and immigrants:
· Somali refugee Abdul Razak Ali Artan went on a jihadi stabbing
rampage at Ohio State.
· In 2016, an Iraqi refugee Omar Faraj Saeed Al Hardan was accused of
planning to bomb a local mall in Texas.
· In September 2016, a Somali refugee named Dahir Adan went on a
stabbing spree at a mall in St. Cloud, Minnesota.
· Somali refugee, Mohamed Osman Mohamed, was arrested for planning to
blow up a Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Oregon back in 2010.
· In 2012, Abdullatif Ali Aldosary, an Iraqi refugee, bombed a Social
Security Office in Arizona.
· Two Iraqi refugees were convicted for having aided Al-Qaeda in Iraq
to kill American servicemen. These so called “refugees,” lied on their
applications, and as proof that the screening process is ineffective,
were allowed entry without issue.
· Both Boston Bombers were refugees. The Tsarnaev brothers were
brought here courtesy of your paycheck, killing and maiming innocents
as a result.
I should add that Omar Mateen, perpetrator of one of the biggest mass
murders in U.S history, was a son of an Afghani refugee.
The bottom line is that there is a clear, direct and bloody evidence
that the immigrants and refugees from the seven countries on President
Trumps’ list pose a direct and clear danger to us.

In your appeal for this event, you seem to be drawing on Holocaust,
making direct connection and comparisons to the Jewish refugees of
1930’ and 40s with the current wave of Muslim refugees. That is deeply
troubling, inaccurate and plain offensive. First this kind of
comparison cheapens and degrades the memory of the Holocaust. The
Jewish refugees of 30’s and 40’s were rejected by this country
squarely on the basis of antisemitism that was deeply prevalent in
Rosevelt administration as well as U.S overall. Israel did not exist,
the Jewish community in U.S was fairly powerless and the entire world
shut its doors motivated by antisemitism. The muslim refugees of today
are being temporarily restricted as they pose a concrete, stated,
proven and real danger to the citizens of this country. Furthermore,
there are multiple very wealthy Arab countries that can easily take
them but have refused to take even a single soul and have not helped
them at all. Saudi Arabia has stated that it will build 200 mosques in
Germany but will not spend a dollar to take in a single refugee. The
Arabs won’t take them, why should we?

Second, as a former refugee myself, I am deeply offended by your
implication that all refugees are created equal. That is also simply
not true. The European refugees like ourselves, came here to
integrate, to contribute and to help build this country, founded on
Judeo-Christian values. The Muslim refugees from the seven countries
as well as Arab world in general, are coming as part of the stealth
Jihad whose goal is a total destruction of Western civilization as we
know it. Is that what we as Jews want to enable?

Finally, you may argue that not all refugees subscribe to the
nihilistic, apocalyptic vision of Islam and its drive to dominate the
world. Perhaps you are right. But as the father of three young
children and a husband of a beautiful wife, do I really want to play
Russian Roulette with the lives of my loved ones? Do I really want to
create another Sweden here where women are attacked and molested
regularly and are now told to avoid public pools and to change the way
they dress? Or perhaps you would like me to take a chance on creating
another Austria here where a 10 year boy gets raped by one of the
recently admitted refugees?

Finally, let’s talk about the Jewish aspect of all of this. In your
appeal, you make a point that “Jewish history and tradition puts us at
the forefront of welcoming the stranger”. While that is certainly
true, our Jewish tradition does not call for actions that endanger
one’s life and in fact the sanctity of one’s life takes precedence
over all other actions. As you appear to be in search of a worthy
cause that can unite and bring out the best in our community may I
suggest the following possible causes and offer to be the first to
volunteer to contribute to and support:

– Let’s help the poor Jews of Eastern Ukraine, caught in the
crossfire, struggling to survive.
– Let’s help the West European Jews, cowering in their homes, under
24/7 protection from the Muslim hordes all around them. Let’s help
those who want to immigrate to Israel
– Let’s help the Argentine Jews, victims of brutal Hezbollah attacks
as well as persistent, institutionalized antisemitism
– Let’s double our efforts to help all of Israeli war widows, whose
husbands perished protecting Am Israel
– Let’s raise funds for the few gentiles still alive designated as
“righteous among nations”, many of whom are barely making ends meet in
Eastern Europe
– Let’s pledge to double out support to Friends of IDF organization
that takes care of lonely warriors in IDF who are risking their lives
to protect us
– Let’s create a fund for the family of Halal Yaffa Ariel, a 12 year
old girl recently murdered by Muslim terrorist in Israel
– Let’s start a fund for the family of Ilan Halevi, a French Jew,
brutally tortured for weeks and then murdered in the most gruesome way
by his Muslim countrymen, many of them former refugees and immigrants.
– Let’s create a fund for the remaining family members of the family
in Itamar most of whom were murdered by Muslim terrorists in Israel
– Let’s start a campaign to protest the fact that at least 16 Arab
countries don’t allow anyone with Israeli stamps in their passport
into their country.
– Let’s publicize the fact that Iran, on their visa
application, forbids entry to anyone who visited “Palestinian Occupied
Territories” in the last year.

  • Member since
    June, 2002
  • 12,624 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 1:13 AM

Having added this Jewish-Russian-American's letter forwarded to me, I must add that I probably would have attended the fundraiser and even contributed a modest amount, say $18 or $36, to the effort.  Because once the refugees are in the USA, the help they need to become good USA citizens should be provided.  And radicals can be moved from their positions, and sometimes I have had some sucess in that direction:

d.    Torah with Ishmael in the Drug Store

 One morning the young Arab druggist in the drug store nearest the Yeshiva told me that he had a right to live in Jerusalem, but not me.  He stated a belief that the Jews of today are not descendents of Abraham, but of the Russian Kazar tribe, converts to Judaism some 500 years ago.  The conversation remained polite, and he stopped short of telling me to pack my bags and live the rest of my life in America.  I was familiar with this lie, one that the Saudis spread throughout the Muslim world for the last 80 years.   I had a new thought.  I took from my black bag, several siddurim, Orthodox Jewish prayer books, and turned each one to the page having Rabbi Ishmael’s thirteen rules for interpreting the Torah and other sacred texts, a sort of early scientific method.  I told him that every Orthodox Jew, in every local tradition, is supposed to recite this instruction every morning, and I do so.  That such an important Rabbi was named Ishmael proves that we Jews honor Ishmael as well as Isaac.  I told him a bit about Rabbi Ishmael’s history, that Jews never left the Holy Land completely, about the religious settlements that existed before Zionism, about the first Zionist settlements of 150 years ago.  Also the tradition that Abraham invited Ishmael to return, that he and his family did, and that the Torah states Isaac and Ishmael buried Abraham.   He replied that Muslims honor Moses, Joseph, and David.  I think the matter is cleared up for this young man.

 

 

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    July, 2006
  • 9,565 posts
Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:21 AM

daveklepper
daveklepper wrote the following post 8 hours ago: I have every right to call a spade a spade.

You have every right to smear and spread racism.  Others have the right and duty in the US (still) to confront it.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    June, 2002
  • 12,624 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 10:40 AM

Unfortunately, Schlimm, the people I am labeling as racists are racists, and if you wish to call me racist I have to accept that.  Undoubtadly you think Soros does not promote racism.  I know for a fact that he does financially, not through words.  The Islamic Fundamentalists are the most racist people in the world, even more racist than even the South African white supremasists at their worst.  And Soros directly helps funding Islamic Fundamentalism.  And Holocaust denial.

If you believe that terrorism against civilians and firing rockets into civilian areas while using children and women as defensive shields for the rocket launchers is an appropriate and useful negotiating tool, I cannot help you.  If you believe, as the "even-handed" appraoch of European governments and the Clinton and Obama administrations, the that form of terrorism can be equated with housing construction, mostly on land that was owned by Jews prior to 1948, I cannot help you see the truth.

But I know you are not a racist and basically a good person.  I blame the New York Times and HaAretz and lots of other media for your views.  Not you personally.  Do you have any idea what is happening to Christian comuniities throughout the Islamic world?

I presented the Russian-Jewish-American's letter as his view, not mine.  You did not apparently bother to read to the end where I said I would have attended the fundraiser and contributed because I do not dispair of making the Muslim immigrants into good American citizens.  I know too many good Arab Israeli citizens to deny that possibility.  And I had good Arab students in my classes when I tought at City College. Some did tell me they regarded me as a friend.

 

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