Trains railroad news reported the schedule change news on Tuesday. All other reports tuesday either essentially copied the "trains" report or at least cited it. Amtrak did not report it in their news releases until Wedensday.
The "trains" report had the statement that Amtrak agreeded to not apply for any state supported or additional trains on UP for 2 years. The "trains" report was very unclear on exactly what that meant.
1. Note: Nowhere in the Amtrak release does it refer to this no request clause.
2. Does this UP - Amtrak clause only apply to the Sunset route?.
3. Did "trains" mean all UP routes ?
4. Since no other source has cited this clause (except "trains" ) where exactly is "trains" source for this clause ?? I would have thought the official Amtrak release would have stated such.
I can imagine that Amtrak could have agreeded to this as their 5 year financial plan states 227 train sets needed from FY 2011- Fy 2014. ---- 267 Train sets are listed for the end of FY2015 & 2016.
I was a little surprised there are enough Superliners available to accomplish a shift to daily service. The Newswire report mentions a connecting "coach train with a diner" on the New Orleans/San Antonio segment. Perhaps that is to be accomplished with single level equipment.
Dakguy201 I was a little surprised there are enough Superliners available to accomplish a shift to daily service. The Newswire report mentions a connecting "coach train with a diner" on the New Orleans/San Antonio segment. Perhaps that is to be accomplished with single level equipment.
As to the availability of Superliners, consider that there would no longer be Los Angeles-New Orleans cars--which would then be available for Chicago-Los Angeles service. Of course, the schedule change effective in May frees some of the cars currently in use for the New Orleans service.
Johnny
Dakguy201 I was a little surprised there are enough Superliners available to accomplish a shift to daily service.
I was a little surprised there are enough Superliners available to accomplish a shift to daily service.
Dakguy201: You are missreadiing the news wire article. As I had posted the newswire article was very poorly written.
What UP and Amtrak agreeded to is that the west bound Sunset that was scheduled to leave New Orleans on Friday has been changed to leave on Saturday. If you have any doubts please read the Amtrak announcement on the Amtrak web site under News Releases. That means there still will be only 3 departures a week each way for the Sunset.
What was embedded in the news wire article was the PRIIA route improvement plan "RIP" that was issued by Amtrak sometime in 2010 (?). That plan had the Eagle as the primary train operating daily CHI - LAX. That plan also had a daily trip connecting with the Eagle at San Antonia ( SAS ). The daily train was going to be a 3 car Superliner SAS - New Orleans. I have no idea why thenewswire report contained the Amtrak PRIIA report ????
Another segment of the UP - Amtrak agreement is a change in scheduled train times. The Sunset ( 3 days a week only ) will leave New Orleans ( NOL ) 3 hours earlier. It will leave SAS after having some Eagle cars attached some 3 hours earlier and arrive LAX 3 hours earlier. Eagle will leave CHI slightly different to connect with the Sunset at SAS.
East bound the Sunset will leave LAX later. At SAS Eagle ( daily ) and Sunset ( 3 days a week ) will leave for CHI & NOL around 6:00 Am.
The above schedules will provide for Phoenix early moning eastbound late evening westbound trains ( 3 days a week ). More importantly the SAS - NOL trains will be a day trip both ways.
wi
According to the proposed schedule, Number 1 will depart NO at 9:00 a.m. on Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday. It will arrive in Houston at 6:18 p.m. and San Antonio at 12:05 a.m. It will depart SA at 2:45 a.m. and arrive in El Paso at 1:22 p.m., Tucson at 6:45 p.m., Maricopa at 8:52 p.m. and Los Angeles at 5:35 a.m. Sleeping car passengers will be able to stay on the train in LA until 6:30 a.m. The schedule for Number 2 shows it leaving LA at 10:00 p.m. on Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday, with arrivals in Tucson at 7:28 a.m., SA at 4:50 a.m., Houston at 11:10 a.m. and NO at 9:40 p.m.
If I remember correctly, the new schedule is close to the one that was in effect prior its being revised because the UP could not get the Sunset over its system on time.
Reducing the dwell time in SA for westbound passengers connecting from the Texas Eagle is a plus for me. However, if I want to go from Austin to New Orleans, the connections would not be as good as the current schedule.
Sam ------------- I was wondering how this new schedule would affect you? Any idea if you will get dinning service Austin - SAS with the new service times?
Something that is puzzling is why Amtrak did not change the trains to agree with PRIIA goals. If the thru train was the Eagle even though LAX would be only 3 days a week.
1. Train numbering might be a problem as you could have 22/x date departing LAX and same 22/x date departing SAS. Of course maybe #2 could be retained with equipment change in SAS ? Or do it like reservations does now and call LAX originating trains 422 ?
2. The new schedule will free up a full superlner train set of baggage; coach;, 2 coaches;,sleeper;, dinner
3. If Single level equipment is used on Sunset SAS - NOL that might free up another train set?
4. Superliner equipment is in short supply so the freeded up SL equipment could be used on all Superliner equipped trains ?
5. There may not be available enough of speciific type single level equipment to operate SAS - NOL. PRIIA showed just 3 Superliners on each SAS - NOL train ( 2 train sets ). but single level would probably need 4 cars ?
blue streak 1 Sam ------------- I was wondering how this new schedule would affect you? Any idea if you will get dinning service Austin - SAS with the new service times? Something that is puzzling is why Amtrak did not change the trains to agree with PRIIA goals. If the thru train was the Eagle even though LAX would be only 3 days a week. 1. Train numbering might be a problem as you could have 22/x date departing LAX and same 22/x date departing SAS. Of course maybe #2 could be retained with equipment change in SAS ? Or do it like reservations does now and call LAX originating trains 422 ? 2. The new schedule will free up a full superlner train set of baggage; coach;, 2 coaches;,sleeper;, dinner 3. If Single level equipment is used on Sunset SAS - NOL that might free up another train set? 4. Superliner equipment is in short supply so the freeded up SL equipment could be used on all Superliner equipped trains ? 5. There may not be available enough of speciific type single level equipment to operate SAS - NOL. PRIIA showed just 3 Superliners on each SAS - NOL train ( 2 train sets ). but single level would probably need 4 cars ?
Under the current Eagle schedule, it leaves Austin at 6:30 p.m. and arrives in San Antonio at 9:55 p.m. The dinning car has been open until about 8:00 p.m., so there is ample time to board the train in Austin and have dinner.
I have not been able to find the proposed schedule for the Texas Eagle. On its current schedule, it arrives in SA with more than enough time to switch the through cars to Number 1, which will not depart SA until a little after 2:00 a.m. I would be surprise if they make a significant change to the schedule for 21 and 22.
I sent Boardman a letter on Sunday. I ask him why Amtrak could not implement the plan to discontinue the Sunset Limited and run the Texas Eagle to LAX as a through train, with a connecting train from NO to SA, as was proposed by the improvement plan. I did not know about the proposed changes to the Sunset schedule. I am keen to hear what he or one of his staff persons has to say.
Sam1 I sent Boardman a letter on Sunday. I ask him why Amtrak could not implement the plan to discontinue the Sunset Limited and run the Texas Eagle to LAX as a through train, with a connecting train from NO to SA, as was proposed by the improvement plan. I did not know about the proposed changes to the Sunset schedule. I am keen to hear what he or one of his staff persons has to say.
SAM1: Talk about great timing. That letter could not have gone out at a better time. Great work!
You and I both seem to be in agreement on this change.
Deggesty Some time back (I do not recall just when) there was quite a report published which, among other things, mentioned the equipment of the San Antonio-New Orleans train, which would be single level equipment. The report included proposed schedules, which eliminated the long layovers in San Antonio.
Some time back (I do not recall just when) there was quite a report published which, among other things, mentioned the equipment of the San Antonio-New Orleans train, which would be single level equipment. The report included proposed schedules, which eliminated the long layovers in San Antonio.
The 2010 plan did not include running single level cars from New Orleans to San Antonio. It was going to be a Superliner stub train which would be attached to the Texas Eagle cars running to LA. The 2010 Sunset Limited / Texas Eagle PIP report is available on the Amtrak website in the Reports & Documents page.
This schedule change implements part of the proposed changes in the report, but leaves the SL as a 3 day a week train and as an intact service from New Orleans to LA. The idea of making the TE as the main train running all the way to LA really requires that it run daily from San Antonio to LA. Otherwise, they have a TE that runs to San Antonio 4 days a week and to LA 3 days a week. Because UP blocked daily operation from San Antonio to LA, Amtrak stuck with the SL as the New Orleans to LA train which happens to connect to the TE at San Antonio.
Quoting bluestreak1: "1. Train numbering might be a problem as you could have 22/x date departing LAX and same 22/x date departing SAS. Of course maybe #2 could be retained with equipment change in SAS ? Or do it like reservations does now and call LAX originating trains 422?"
Why the concern about the numberingof trains? Consider the other trains, such as the Empire Builder, which takes more than twenty-four hours to complete its run. What difficulties have been presented by its being in two places at the same time on a certain day?
blue streak 1 The "trains" report had the statement that Amtrak agreeded to not apply for any state supported or additional trains on UP for 2 years. The "trains" report was very unclear on exactly what that meant. 1. Note: Nowhere in the Amtrak release does it refer to this no request clause. 2. Does this UP - Amtrak clause only apply to the Sunset route?. 3. Did "trains" mean all UP routes ?
Someone posted a copy of the signed letter agreement between Amtrak and UP for the revised Sunset Limited schedule. The 2 year restriction in the agreement is limited to the Sunset Limited route or any portion of it for only long distance or non-state supported service. Since Amtrak is not going to start up any new LD trains on the SL route or on any UP tracks in the next 2 years, it really only prevents Amtrak from requesting a change to daily service for 2 years.
If California wants to pursue starting up a LA to Palm Springs and Coachella valley state supported corridor service, CA can do so. Although any such service is not going to happen in the next 2-3 years because CA does not have the equipment for it unless they add to the joint state bi-level corridor car order. And the first cars of that yet to be awarded contract won't arrive in quantity until 2015/2016.
Alan F? Someone posted a copy of the signed letter agreement between Amtrak and UP for the revised Sunset Limited schedule. The 2 year restriction in the agreement is limited to the Sunset Limited route or any portion of it for only long distance or non-state supported service. Since Amtrak is not going to start up any new LD trains on the SL route or on any UP tracks in the next 2 years, it really only prevents Amtrak from requesting a change to daily service for 2 years.
AlanF: I am having heartburn over this so called letter of agreement. neither UP or Amtrak's release of the agreement refers to the 2 year restriction. Several publications that alluded to the so called agreement have removed any reference. The only publication stilll refering to the so called letter is Amtrak's news wire.
Do you have any other cite of the letter?
When you study the Amtrak fleet plan and 5 yr finincial plan they state Amtrak has 227 train sets and only anticipates increasing to 267 sometime in FY 2015. That being the case it certainly would be no trouble for Amtrak to agree to a 2 yr restriction. But again where's the agreeent or at least a copy.
Deggesty Why the concern about the numberingof trains? Consider the other trains, such as the Empire Builder, which takes more than twenty-four hours to complete its run. What difficulties have been presented by its being in two places at the same time on a certain day?
Deggesty: The way trains are dispatched in Amtrak'w system is 8 / 16 march left SEA Friday. 8 / 15 March left Seattle Thursday. The same for 28 / 16 left PDX on Friday. Note: train is alway referred to by number and origination station date.
Now 22/16 left SAS this morning and if the Eagle left LAX today it would also be 22/ 16 . That is the conflict. Make sense ?
SAM1 many of our newer posters may not understand our reasons for making the Eagle the train thru San Antionia. ( SAS ) I will list some reasons and would you list any others and disagree with any I post ?
1. The # of passeners thru SAS is 2 - 3 /1 in favor of the Eagle over the Sunset.
2. Attaching Sunset cars to end of Eagle might disturb Thru Eagle passenger less ?
3. Dinning car service could continue in case Eagle is late
4. If Sunset cars do not go thru then an easy cross platform change is available.
5. Preminum coach ( mabe business class ) service may have many passengers due to it being a day trip NOL - - SAS much like the Palmetto and Carolinian.
6. Passengers now on the Eagle some days cannot get sleeper space until SAS west.
blue streak 1 Do you have any other cite of the letter? When you study the Amtrak fleet plan and 5 yr finincial plan they state Amtrak has 227 train sets and only anticipates increasing to 267 sometime in FY 2015. That being the case it certainly would be no trouble for Amtrak to agree to a 2 yr restriction. But again where's the agreeent or at least a copy.
If this link still works, click on the PDF link on this page: http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-limited-west/browse_thread/thread/cce5a792549f9ffa?hl=en
We have a very good idea of what Amtrak will be getting between now and FY2015. The 130 CAF Viewliners, some of the ACS-64 electric locomotives, and by then, some of the 40 Acela coach cars that should be ordered this year . The 130 car corridor bi-level order is expected to be placed by this fall, but given the lead time to start up a manufacturing line, the first of those cars is not likely to show up until well in FY2015. The 2 year restriction costs Amtrak very little because they don't have the equipment for LD train service expansion in the west. The CAF Viewliner production run gives Amtrak options for the eastern routes, but those won't be on UP tracks.
blue streak 1 SAM1 many of our newer posters may not understand our reasons for making the Eagle the train thru San Antionia. ( SAS ) I will list some reasons and would you list any others and disagree with any I post ? 1. The # of passeners thru SAS is 2 - 3 /1 in favor of the Eagle over the Sunset. 2. Attaching Sunset cars to end of Eagle might disturb Thru Eagle passenger less ? 3. Dinning car service could continue in case Eagle is late 4. If Sunset cars do not go thru then an easy cross platform change is available. 5. Preminum coach ( mabe business class ) service may have many passengers due to it being a day trip NOL - - SAS much like the Palmetto and Carolinian. 6. Passengers now on the Eagle some days cannot get sleeper space until SAS west.
According to Amtrak's Texas Fact Sheet for FY11, 67,168 passengers boarded or alighted from its trains in San Antonio. It does not give the number of passengers boarding or alighting for the Texas Eagle and the Sunset Limited.
In FY11 I rode the Texas Eagle to San Antonio from Temple or Taylor twice. And I rode it from Temple to El Paso and back once. Overall I have gone through San Antonio at least 25 times since I moved to Texas many years ago. Based on my experience, it appears that most of the passengers on the Eagle get on or off the train at San Antonio, although there are some through passengers.
The fare structure encourages westbound San Antonio passengers to book on the Sunset as opposed to the Texas Eagle, although it is one train west of San Antonio. For a Monday three weeks hence the coach fare from San Antonio to El Paso on the Sunset is $79 vs. $155 on the Eagle. If my chance space on the Sunset is sold out, a rare occurrence according the load factors, passengers booking on the Sunset will be seated in the Eagle cars.
The west bound Sunset Limited usually arrives in San Antonio with two locomotives, a baggage car, transition sleeper, two coaches, lounge car, diner, and sleeping car. The transition sleeper and revenue sleeper have been at the head end of the train behind the baggage car. Sometimes, if bookings dictate, it will have three coaches. Whilst the train lays over in San Antonio, the through coach and sleepeer from the Eagle are attached to the back of the train, thus resulting in the through sleeper being at the back of the train whilst the NO - LA sleeper(s) are at the front of the train. I have never seen more than one coach and one sleeper go through from the Eagle. East and northbound, the process is reversed.
As I remember from my read of the FY10 Performance Improvement Plan for the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle, the plan was to drop the Sunset Limited and replace it with two daily trains. The Eagle would run through daily from Chicago to LAX. From New Orleans to San Antonio the Sunset Limited would be replaced by an un-named daily coach train with at least a diner and possibly a lounge car. There was no mention of a premium coach or business class car. Most of the passengers riding Amtrak's trains in Texas are coach passengers. It does not appear that they could afford or would be interested in buying first class space. Through passengers along the Sunset route for points west of San Antonio or east of the Alamo City would make an across the platform change in San Antonio.
From my relatively uninformed position, I asked Boardman why Amtrak could not implement the FY10 Performance Improvement Plan for the Sunset/Eagle on a three day a week schedule, since presumably the UP would have no objection to fielding a coach only train from New Orleans to San Antonio and a three day a week schedule west of San Antonio. The operating burden on the UP would be the same as it is today. Amongst other things this would eliminate the car switching in San Antonio, which would save Amtrak some money, and would not disturb the passengers in the sleeping cars who have paid a premium for a good night sleep. Based on my experience, once they start shifting the cars, it is wake up time in the sleeper. I am keenly awaiting his reply.
As an interesting aside, the average annual wage for the 207 Texas based Amtrak employees is $72,384.92 plus benefits, which usually tacks on another 25 to 35 per cent of the base wage. This puts them well above the median household income in Texas of approximately $47,00 per year and family income of nearly $57,000 per year. Most of the employees work on the trains or in the stations. There are several management employees in Fort Worth and there may be one or two in San Antonio. In addition, service crews work the trains in Fort Worth and San Antonio. I don't know whether they are Amtrak employees or whether they are contract employees.
Sam1 . As I remember from my read of the FY10 Performance Improvement Plan for the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle, the plan was to drop the Sunset Limited and replace it with two daily trains. The Eagle would run through daily from Chicago to LAX. From New Orleans to San Antonio the Sunset Limited would be replaced by an un-named daily coach train with at least a diner and possibly a lounge car. There was no mention of a premium coach or business class car. Most of the passengers riding Amtrak's trains in Texas are coach passengers. It does not appear that they could afford or would be interested in buying first class space. Through passengers along the Sunset route for points west of San Antonio or east of the Alamo City would make an across the platform change in San Antonio.
.
SAM1: I copied for your viewing from the PRIIA Sunset improvement plan the below which give the planned consists of both the new Eagle and Sunset. Note the preminum coach class.
D. Operations Description Summary Frequency of Service: All Routes Daily Sunset/Eagle
D. Operations Description Summary
Frequency of Service: All Routes Daily
Sunset/Eagle
Route: Los Angeles-Chicago
Equipment: (All through Los Angeles-Chicago)
Second unit is cut eastbound daily at San Antonio. Second unit is added westbound daily at San Antonio
eastbound daily at San Antonio. Second unit is added westbound daily at San Antonio
Six cars total (Superliner)
o
1 Dorm (with room revenue sales)
1 sleeper
1 cross country café
1 lounge
2 coaches
1 coach baggage
Checked baggage The initial deployment of the service will not include an additional baggage car. If a baggage car is required, Amtrak will explore the temporary reassignment of equipment.
The initial deployment of the service will not include an additional baggage car. If a
baggage car is required, Amtrak will explore the temporary reassignment of equipment.
San Antonio - New Orleans
(cross platform connecting service at San Antonio – guaranteed connection – equipment remains open for occupancy in the event of a late train arrival from Los Angeles; westbound through passengers can board Los Angeles train on arrival.)
connection – equipment remains open for occupancy in the event of a late train arrival from
Los Angeles; westbound through passengers can board Los Angeles train on arrival.)
Route: San Antonio-New Orleans
Equipment: (No through cars)
Unit is provided daily by the arriving eastbound train from Los Angeles
Angeles
Three Cars Total (Superliner)
1 coach with premium coach class seating
1 baggage coach
1 cross country cafe
Service assumptions: Exclusive premium meal service, including at seat meal service offered to premium coach class customers
offered to premium coach class customers
Traditional lounge service to be offered coach customers, augmented by Cross Country Café entrees
Café entrees
Checked baggage
Operational characteristics:
route
Elimination of switch crew requirement in San Antonio
Reduction of San Antonio layover for passengers
Schedule design that provides adequate crew rest at away from home terminals
It does say premium coach class will be offered in one car, whatever that means. It seems like a cross between business class and coach class by an outfit that cannot decide. I doubt that they would have many takers, although it would depend on the fare.
The proposed NO/SA train would probably look a lot like the Heartland Flyer, except it would have a few premium seats. The Flyer carried an average of 115 passengers per day during 2011.
Alan F If this link still works, click on the PDF link on this page: http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-limited-west/browse_thread/thread/cce5a792549f9ffa?hl=en We have a very good idea of what Amtrak will be getting between now and FY2015. The 130 CAF Viewliners, some of the ACS-64 electric locomotives, and by then, some of the 40 Acela coach cars that should be ordered this year . The 130 car corridor bi-level order is expected to be placed by this fall, but given the lead time to start up a manufacturing line, the first of those cars is not likely to show up until well in FY2015. The 2 year restriction costs Amtrak very little because they don't have the equipment for LD train service expansion in the west. The CAF Viewliner production run gives Amtrak options for the eastern routes, but those won't be on UP tracks.
AlanF: Thanks very much for the link. Since I wanted to see the letter so much I tried to copy it to this thread but was unable. What you posted is very true. Agreement costs Amtrak very little. Amtrak's 5 year plan seems to confirm that as well. 191 train sets needed until end of FY 2015's -- then 223 verifys that. The bi-lelevel order IMHO adds no Superliner type cars but cars for California and midwest trains. The bi-level order will allow the California lease of Superliners to be returned to Amtrak but I believe that is only 7 cars but will try to verify?
IMHO the lack of new Superliner equipment in the near future may call for some changes of equipment on certain trains so equipment can be added to other western trains. One obvious source would be the Capitol limited. If Capitol went to single level cars the proposed sleeper ( only available when the new sleepers are built ) and coach thru cars from the Pennsylvanian which would be single level.
I verified for sure that there are 7 cars that California leased from Amtrak. They were wrecked Superliners that California paid Amtrak to rebuild and then California leased them on long term . They can be returned if California gets enough cars to cover all Surfliner passengers.
I believe that I may have misled readers. Amtrak does list 227 train sets but they actually only need daily 191 train sets with 36 out of service at any time. The end of FY 2015 then shows 223 train sets needed with 44 out of service. It would only be speculation as to where Amtrak expects to add these extra train sets. The only set I know of is the next one for NC DOT.
Streak,
The first case is about 15% bad order ratio and the second is 20%. Both seem high. Freight railroads run about 5% of active, as opposed to stored, cars B/O. I know passenger cars are more complex than freight, but these figures seem high. Any idea why the are so high?
Mac
PNWRMNM Streak, The first case is about 15% bad order ratio and the second is 20%. Both seem high. Freight railroads run about 5% of active, as opposed to stored, cars B/O. I know passenger cars are more complex than freight, but these figures seem high. Any idea why the are so high? Mac
MAC: no - But from my airline experience I may hazard a guess ---. The high aamount may come from passenger required and convenience items. Airline maintenance at thru stations was almost always dealing with passenger items that were often deferred. Basic aircraft equipment is usually fairly robust or easily part out new part in.
I have often wondered why Amtrak does't use a traveling maintenance persoon to fix many of these items. Would it increase availability ? Sorry cannot answer. Some of the European carriers use such but their sucess ??
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