The Thread title is the title of the article published in The Daily Caller .
Published: 10:41 AM 02/20/2012 By Betsi Fores
Admittedly it is not a regular news resource, but the article should definitely cause some discussions on this Forum. I am starting a new Thread so as not to co-opt henry6's Thread on the "Privatization of AMTRAK" in this same section.
The apparent basis of the article is noted in the article as following:
FTA:"...In a report released last year, the Office of the Inspector General documents the fraudulent sales schemes in the food and beverage service on Amtrak trains by Amtrak employees, costing the government-assisted corporation, and taxpayers, up to $7 million..."
FTA:"...the study found that Amtrak employees routinely add “food items to the meal checks of first class passengers, who eat free, and then sold the same food to other passengers,” in effect counting food items twice..."
FTA:"...According to Ted Alves, the Inspector General of the National Railroad Passenger Corporation, the money would “move [Amtrak] toward its long-term goal of providing efficient, high quality passenger rail service that is cost and trip time competitive with other modes...”
FTA:"...However, DeHaven notes that, “congressional micromanagement has prevented Amtrak from cutting routes and reducing other costs” meaning improved efficiency, effectiveness, accountability are unlikely under continued government management..."
Sam,
The authors of this report did not "document" any particular amount of loss. They simply applied restaraunt industry average losses as a percent of sales to ATK sales.
All this report did was keep two sets of bureaucrats employed rearanging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Mac McCulloch
PNWRMNM Sam, The authors of this report did not "document" any particular amount of loss. They simply applied restaraunt industry average losses as a percent of sales to ATK sales. All this report did was keep two sets of bureaucrats employed rearanging deck chairs on the Titanic. Mac McCulloch
Mac:
I totally agree with your points. My reasoning for posting the article was to point to the discussion by Congressman Mica, and his efforts to derail (?) AMTRAK and its funding stream and get it eliminated (?) as an entity. Or so it would seem from his public comments and other stories in the media. ( my impression).
Personally, I think AMTRAK is a necessity in these times. The public needs an alternative to privately owned Transportation for inter city travel. The Bus network has become spotty and un- reliable for dependable scheduled transport. Air travel is no where near the convenient level that preceded the events of the last few years(9/11 aftermath and the TSA ) Gasoline is becoming pricier and pricier) .
The claims made by the article while not back by the 'vetting' process of background information, at the least becomes ammunition for those who would attempt to paint AMTRAK as problematic any way they can. So the argument is out there, and needs to be discussed (my points).
Like most media articles the tendency is to paint claims in the worst possible light and then let those who would , argue them. It is analogous to the position of a Defendant in a divorce; the Defendant who is left answering the claims of the Plaintiff, regardless of their level of truth or reality. Ultimately, the only winners are the 'Suits'[Lawyers] who are paid, win or loose.
AMTRAK deserves to be able to answer claims made against it at what ever level it can, why not in a venue that is at least rational? My reasons for posting the original article.
Yes, Congress has been very parochial when dealing with Amtrak. They have tended to dictate routes w/o regard to the costs incurred, then hammer Amtrak over costing so much.
But, even with that, these articles, and many other things point to lots of fertile, unplowed ground w.r.t. Amtrak's operating efficiency.
You get what you reward: This means that Amtrak's management - at all levels - needs incentives for finding and implementing efficiencies. Without this, no one will risk it because change always has some risk and pain, and who would risk pain without the chance for a reward? That's just basic human nature.
Serving food is not a core competency: Neither is making beds and cleaning bathrooms....and it shows. Leave that work to those who are best at it. Contract out the food service - lock, stock and barrel. I'll bet there's someone out there who can make a buck at it, and pay Amtrak some for the privilege. (anyone remember the Empire Service/Subway debacle?)
Doing any of this is hard, partly because I believe Amtrak has "poison pill" style labor deals that require years of pay if work goes away. This works in a de-facto sense for managment as well. "As long as there is someone to supervise, I'll have my job. (See "you get what you reward") This also provides the rationale for not ever changing anything since the time to the first nickel saved is years away.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
What do we know about The Caller and Betsi Fores? Is it a government watchdog agency, is it a political agency. The accusations outlined above could be charged against any restuarant or restuarant chain for instance. And the idea of Congressional micromanagment and looking for controlling costs are investor mantra while complaints against government controls is always heard from the Right. I'm not saying that there is no merit in anythng stated, I just quesiton the agenda of the writer and the publication. And no, I haven't read the whole thing. I will if anyone can identify the publication and writer better.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 What do we know about The Caller and Betsi Fores? Is it a government watchdog agency, is it a political agency. The accusations outlined above could be charged against any restuarant or restuarant chain for instance. And the idea of Congressional micromanagment and looking for controlling costs are investor mantra while complaints against government controls is always heard from the Right. I'm not saying that there is no merit in anythng stated, I just quesiton the agenda of the writer and the publication. And no, I haven't read the whole thing. I will if anyone can identify the publication and writer better.
The report, which is entitled Food and Beverage Service: Further Actions Needed to Address Revenue Losses Due to Control Weaknesses and Gaps, Report E11-03, issued on June 23, 2011, was produced by the Office of Inspector General, National Railroad Passenger Corporation. In the corporate world it would be know as Internal Audit or something similar.
The Caller and Betsi Fores has simply flagged the report for reasons unknown.
The compensation package for most corporate managers contains a pay for performance clause. That is to say, a portion of their pay is linked to the achievement of their goals and the goals of the company. Controlling costs, including the cost of fraud, is very important, as is generating revenues, if the mutual desirable goals are to be achieved. If the management team fails to do so, their compensation package will be less than expected.
Amtrak is a government entity. It has little incentive to control costs? As long as they don't rocke the political boat, their jobs are secure. This is just one more reason why passenger rail in the United States should be privatized.
Sam1 The Caller and Betsi Fores has simply flagged the report.
The Caller and Betsi Fores has simply flagged the report.
That is still not enough to identify either the publisher nor the reporter. Still don't know who they are and why they are hitting on this report. Are they left or right or non partisan? Are they backed by the highway lobby, the restaurant lobby, pro rail lobby, or? What is their authority or stance? As I said, they may be right but for the wrong reasons. Are they bring this information forward to suggest improvements and oversight that would benefit Amtrak or are they out to destroy Amtrak and passenger trains?
Henry,
If you would click on colored word "report" in the first paragraph that starts "FTA" in the original post it will take you to the report which was written by Amtrak's Office of Inspector General.
Mac
PNWRMNM Henry, If you would click on colored word "report" in the first paragraph that starts "FTA" in the original post it will take you to the report which was written by Amtrak's Office of Inspector General. Mac
But Mac, it doesn't matter what the report written by Amtrak's Office of Inspector General said. What matters is who this people are here reporting it and what their agenda is. Again I say the facts might be right but not complete or are highlighted by the reporter and publihser because it supports their point of view in someway or another. Are they Mica supporters? Are they highway lobbyists? Are they a right or left wing think tank? Are they non partisan or bi partisan politically? Are they representing NARP or the concrete makers and oil refineries or Ford Motor or EMD? We don't know. All I am hearing here is to see what they say. And what they say may be correct but incomplete or otherwise tainted.
Henry-
The Amtrak Office of Inspector General has a website. All their reports are published.
http://www.amtrakoig.gov/
The docs match.
The office is the internal auditors for Amtrak - a part of Amtrak itself.
But who is this writer and what is this publication or group? I accept the information as correct as quoating from Amtrak's Inspector General's reports. But what is their reason for being concerned? Are they anti Amtrak, anti Obama, anti government operation of Amtrak, pro highway lobby, pro Obama or pro Santorum or who? I accept he information as correct but question its completeness and why they are presenting it. Who is Besse and what is The Caller, who is behind them, paying her salary and publishing the material. The picture is incomplete. If it were Trains Magazine, we can accept. If it were the Wall Street Journal, we'd know their point of view, likewise for say, the New York Times, or Road and Driver or Bus and Truck magazines. So who is Besse and who is behind The Caller?
henry6 But who is this writer and what is this publication or group? I accept the information as correct as quoating from Amtrak's Inspector General's reports. But what is their reason for being concerned? Are they anti Amtrak, anti Obama, anti government operation of Amtrak, pro highway lobby, pro Obama or pro Santorum or who? I accept he information as correct but question its completeness and why they are presenting it. Who is Besse and what is The Caller, who is behind them, paying her salary and publishing the material. The picture is incomplete. If it were Trains Magazine, we can accept. If it were the Wall Street Journal, we'd know their point of view, likewise for say, the New York Times, or Road and Driver or Bus and Truck magazines. So who is Besse and who is behind The Caller?
It does not matter. The report is a primary source document. As pointed out below, anyone has access to the Inspector General's reports. By the same token, anyone has access to the General Accountability Office (GAO) reports.
On occasion I have read articles in the New York Times that drew what I believed was an erroneous conclusion. When I checked with the GAO, as an example, sure enough I was right. The reporter had skewed the data to reflect his or her biases.
The point is that it does matter. Fox, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, etc all have their bent and we are often told to believe Fox while others call it Faux. So here again, I accept the Amtrak information but I want to know who the reporter and the platform is. If it were from any of the above networks or from the NYT or WSJ, I would know the source and the point of view and reason for presentation. But I don't know Besse nor The Call. To me the call means I have to go down the hall to relieve myself.
When passenger trains were operated by the private sector
the dining services always lost money. The one exception
was the New Haven and that was because they had very
high alcohol sales in the New York commuter zone. I'm
sure the dopes that condemn Amtrak for losing money
on food are totally clueless of the history of railroad dining.
The report looks like the Government Inspector General wants to hire a large staff of government employees to watch the Amtrak Government Employees.
One way to help the un-employment problem!
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Henry: What does it take to get this through your head?
It doesn't matter WHO cites the INSPECTOR GENERAL's report. The issue is the Inspector General's report ITSELF.
Just as we would expect anyone opposed to Israel to cite a Palestinian source, so you can expect anyone opposed to Amtrak to bring up the Inspector General's report. Obviously, NARP isn't going to do it -- but that somebody opposed to Amtrak did so is not a disqualification in itself.
C'mon!
I wonder if some of the measures being recommended are actually in progress or if the report is just gathering dust. For example, many airlines only accept credit cards for in cabin purchases. The report recommends Amtrak try this through a pilot program. Has anyone observed such a program actually being implemented?
And when it comes to reports - any report by any party - there is one thing to be remembered
Figures Lie - Liars Figure
Any competent accountant or CPA can take the same raw data and PROVE any side of a argument one wants to make.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD And when it comes to reports - any report by any party - there is one thing to be remembered Figures Lie - Liars Figure Any competent accountant or CPA can take the same raw data and PROVE any side of a argument one wants to make.
A forensic audit is also done by humans as well.
Are they lying too?
At some point there has to be truth fr there to be a lie..otherwise both are meaningless by themselves.
Given the way that some have approached the discussion the only way one would be able to see whether or not those figures that are mentioned are, in fact, lies would be to examine the books themselves..and see that the books were, themselves, cooked...and on and on...
One can go a little too far with that picture in mind.....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
nyc#25 When passenger trains were operated by the private sector the dining services always lost money. The one exception was the New Haven and that was because they had very high alcohol sales in the New York commuter zone. I'm sure the dopes that condemn Amtrak for losing money on food are totally clueless of the history of railroad dining.
I'm well aware of the history and how food was prepared in the past. Also, I'm aware that Amtrak no longer does it that way. They typically use airline food caterers.
That was then. There were no alternatives to doing dining services. Restaurants were nearly all local mom and pop operations. People didn't eat out much. RRs had to run their own commisaries and do the cooking on the train.
Now, people eat out quite a bit. There are large national chains that encompass many brands that have unified product distribution supply chains. For example, Darden owns Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Longhorn, Capital Grille, Bahama Breeze and Season's 52. OSI owns Outback, Carrabba's, Bonefish Grill, Flemings and Roys. Brinker owns Chilli's, Maggiano's and Macaroni Grill.
Each of these have more expertise than Amtrak at food and beverage service. Why not let them bid on it?
dakotafred Henry: What does it take to get this through your head? It doesn't matter WHO cites the INSPECTOR GENERAL's report. The issue is the Inspector General's report ITSELF. Just as we would expect anyone opposed to Israel to cite a Palestinian source, so you can expect anyone opposed to Amtrak to bring up the Inspector General's report. Obviously, NARP isn't going to do it -- but that somebody opposed to Amtrak did so is not a disqualification in itself. C'mon!
Dakotafred: What does it take to get this through your head? It does matter the source of information. I am appalled, though I shouldn't be, at the casual and off handed way people accept information from any source. Yes, the information may be correct because some have gone right to the Inspector's General Report and linked by the writer and The Caller. However, how many accessed the Instpector's report through nortmal Amtrak venues? A few maybe. If Trains Magazine and either Fraily or Phillips gave us that report I'd feel comfortable knowing the source and the reason for reporting. If WSJ or Time Magazine reported, I'd fee comfortable with the report knowing the source and the reason for reporting. But if the Backwoods Bugle and Jane Doe reported, or any other publication or entity and unknown reporter it makes me question the source and reason.
Off the page, it amazes me how often American will get information without questioning the source or the validity or point of view of the source. How many swallow Fox News reports and editorial slant without hesitation but quickly jump all over any other source at the same time. The same thing here. Is this what you want to hear and believe about Amtrak? Do you know who the reporter is? Is she as qualified to write on the subject as Fred Frailey or Don Phillips? Is The Caller as good a source of information as Trains or Modern Railroads or the Wall Street Journal or Washington Post? Is it a Simmons Boardman publication or a Slimey Backroom publication? Nobody here seems to care as long as it slams Amtrak!
Most Federal and many state agencies have an Inspector General's office or an equivalent. Police departments usually call it the Internal Affairs Division. The office has no particular ax to grind except to keep everybody honest. What happens after a report is published is beyond the control of the IG. So if Fox "News" or Rep. Mica or whoever wants to use this report for their own purposes, that's their business, not that of the initial publisher of the report.
I agree with everyone.
Henry6, I see your point about how the report is being used. All you have to do is read some of the other reports on the publication to see which way they lean, and politicians and real people who are out to slam the government will use it to their advantage, just as every few years there's a story about a mail carrier dumping mail rather than delivering it, and people use it to justify scrapping the whole system.
On the other hand, as sam1, dakotafred and others have pointed out, the report appears to be a legitimate report commissioned by Amtrak itself. It points out valid concerns and suggests ways to try to correct the problems. It does point out, though, that these problems are not unique to Amtrak, but exist throughout the food service industry. That, of course, won't stop some from slamming Amtrak.
On the third hand, I had the same thought as DMUinCT expressed: start another government group to watch this one?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
henry6 dakotafred: Henry: What does it take to get this through your head? It doesn't matter WHO cites the INSPECTOR GENERAL's report. The issue is the Inspector General's report ITSELF. Just as we would expect anyone opposed to Israel to cite a Palestinian source, so you can expect anyone opposed to Amtrak to bring up the Inspector General's report. Obviously, NARP isn't going to do it -- but that somebody opposed to Amtrak did so is not a disqualification in itself. C'mon! Dakotafred: What does it take to get this through your head? It does matter the source of information. I am appalled, though I shouldn't be, at the casual and off handed way people accept information from any source. Yes, the information may be correct because some have gone right to the Inspector's General Report and linked by the writer and The Caller. However, how many accessed the Instpector's report through nortmal Amtrak venues? A few maybe. If Trains Magazine and either Fraily or Phillips gave us that report I'd feel comfortable knowing the source and the reason for reporting. If WSJ or Time Magazine reported, I'd fee comfortable with the report knowing the source and the reason for reporting. But if the Backwoods Bugle and Jane Doe reported, or any other publication or entity and unknown reporter it makes me question the source and reason. Off the page, it amazes me how often American will get information without questioning the source or the validity or point of view of the source. How many swallow Fox News reports and editorial slant without hesitation but quickly jump all over any other source at the same time. The same thing here. Is this what you want to hear and believe about Amtrak? Do you know who the reporter is? Is she as qualified to write on the subject as Fred Frailey or Don Phillips? Is The Caller as good a source of information as Trains or Modern Railroads or the Wall Street Journal or Washington Post? Is it a Simmons Boardman publication or a Slimey Backroom publication? Nobody here seems to care as long as it slams Amtrak!
dakotafred: Henry: What does it take to get this through your head? It doesn't matter WHO cites the INSPECTOR GENERAL's report. The issue is the Inspector General's report ITSELF. Just as we would expect anyone opposed to Israel to cite a Palestinian source, so you can expect anyone opposed to Amtrak to bring up the Inspector General's report. Obviously, NARP isn't going to do it -- but that somebody opposed to Amtrak did so is not a disqualification in itself. C'mon!
The "news"article itself was worthless except for providing info about where it got the facts it cherry-picked. At least it had that. TV news is almost completely worthless. All you ever get is a distilled, interpreted summary of what happened in a few simple sentences. No cake. All icing. Chocolate or Vanilla. You get to chose, but it's still all just icing.
The Amtrak IG report was interesting, though.
And what has not been discussed or noted is the recent change in Inspector Generals. Therein the real story and slant may lie.
Let's bring in Bennigan's and Steak & Ale .... oh wait - they went bankrupt. Making money on food is not a gold plated guarantee for any individual or chain, including those mentioned. Were those mentioned to provide service for a outfit such as Amtrak - the entree price would, at a minimum be doubled because of increased costs....double the price and quarter the sales, that is the real ticket to make money.
oltmannd nyc#25: When passenger trains were operated by the private sector the dining services always lost money. The one exception was the New Haven and that was because they had very high alcohol sales in the New York commuter zone. I'm sure the dopes that condemn Amtrak for losing money on food are totally clueless of the history of railroad dining. I'm well aware of the history and how food was prepared in the past. Also, I'm aware that Amtrak no longer does it that way. They typically use airline food caterers. That was then. There were no alternatives to doing dining services. Restaurants were nearly all local mom and pop operations. People didn't eat out much. RRs had to run their own commisaries and do the cooking on the train. Now, people eat out quite a bit. There are large national chains that encompass many brands that have unified product distribution supply chains. For example, Darden owns Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Longhorn, Capital Grille, Bahama Breeze and Season's 52. OSI owns Outback, Carrabba's, Bonefish Grill, Flemings and Roys. Brinker owns Chilli's, Maggiano's and Macaroni Grill. Each of these have more expertise than Amtrak at food and beverage service. Why not let them bid on it?
nyc#25: When passenger trains were operated by the private sector the dining services always lost money. The one exception was the New Haven and that was because they had very high alcohol sales in the New York commuter zone. I'm sure the dopes that condemn Amtrak for losing money on food are totally clueless of the history of railroad dining.
BaltACD Let's bring in Bennigan's and Steak & Ale .... oh wait - they went bankrupt. Making money on food is not a gold plated guarantee for any individual or chain, including those mentioned. Were those mentioned to provide service for a outfit such as Amtrak - the entree price would, at a minimum be doubled because of increased costs....double the price and quarter the sales, that is the real ticket to make money. oltmannd: nyc#25: When passenger trains were operated by the private sector the dining services always lost money. The one exception was the New Haven and that was because they had very high alcohol sales in the New York commuter zone. I'm sure the dopes that condemn Amtrak for losing money on food are totally clueless of the history of railroad dining. I'm well aware of the history and how food was prepared in the past. Also, I'm aware that Amtrak no longer does it that way. They typically use airline food caterers. That was then. There were no alternatives to doing dining services. Restaurants were nearly all local mom and pop operations. People didn't eat out much. RRs had to run their own commisaries and do the cooking on the train. Now, people eat out quite a bit. There are large national chains that encompass many brands that have unified product distribution supply chains. For example, Darden owns Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Longhorn, Capital Grille, Bahama Breeze and Season's 52. OSI owns Outback, Carrabba's, Bonefish Grill, Flemings and Roys. Brinker owns Chilli's, Maggiano's and Macaroni Grill. Each of these have more expertise than Amtrak at food and beverage service. Why not let them bid on it?
oltmannd: nyc#25: When passenger trains were operated by the private sector the dining services always lost money. The one exception was the New Haven and that was because they had very high alcohol sales in the New York commuter zone. I'm sure the dopes that condemn Amtrak for losing money on food are totally clueless of the history of railroad dining. I'm well aware of the history and how food was prepared in the past. Also, I'm aware that Amtrak no longer does it that way. They typically use airline food caterers. That was then. There were no alternatives to doing dining services. Restaurants were nearly all local mom and pop operations. People didn't eat out much. RRs had to run their own commisaries and do the cooking on the train. Now, people eat out quite a bit. There are large national chains that encompass many brands that have unified product distribution supply chains. For example, Darden owns Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Longhorn, Capital Grille, Bahama Breeze and Season's 52. OSI owns Outback, Carrabba's, Bonefish Grill, Flemings and Roys. Brinker owns Chilli's, Maggiano's and Macaroni Grill. Each of these have more expertise than Amtrak at food and beverage service. Why not let them bid on it?
Demand would be pretty inelastic because the clientele can't go across the street to the competitor. The provider could charge the monopoly price. Just look at airport food prices, where there is some competition...
The report claims that spotters were used to identify specific occurences of loss.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
DMUinCT The report looks like the Government Inspector General wants to hire a large staff of government employees to watch the Amtrak Government Employees. One way to help the un-employment problem!
Don U:
Do you have any specific evidence that the Inspector General's office is engaged in gold bricking? Or is it your opinion that internal oversight within government is a waste of taxpayer money? Or perhaps is your concern that any criticism of passenger rail, criticism aimed at cost efficiencies that could improve the money available for passenger service, that such criticism is automatically suspect as being politically motivated?
Yes, raw data can be manipulated to support any point of view.
Are you expressing the opinion that the Inspector General function in the Federal Government is staffed by persons lacking in integrity and given to the manipulation of data?
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