Dayliner Let me see if I can make the question clearer. In the case of the NEC crossings, what information is given--i.e., what is the name of the railroad (OK, I know it's Amtrak in this case), the division, the mileage?
Let me see if I can make the question clearer. In the case of the NEC crossings, what information is given--i.e., what is the name of the railroad (OK, I know it's Amtrak in this case), the division, the mileage?
No worry on the NEC between New York and Boston. Five crossings still exist between New London CT and Westerly RI, all protected with 4 Quadrant Gates. Speed reduction to 89mph or less do to crossings and bridges are in place. Once you clear Westerly RI, northbound, you can open up to 150mph. (Acela)
Don U. TCA 73-5735
What specific crossings are you talking about. Any specific crossing is marked as described above, you can drive to it and read the posted signs. If you cannot get to the crossing you can probably find the information on the AAR or someother website if you google it or state the specific crossing here and someone with an Amtrak ETT or other material can answer.
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Dayliner henry6: In effect, it is none of his business and there is no legal reason he has to know any of that material except maybe the grade crossing designation when 911'ing an accident. OK, so how is that crossing designated and identified?
henry6: In effect, it is none of his business and there is no legal reason he has to know any of that material except maybe the grade crossing designation when 911'ing an accident.
OK, so how is that crossing designated and identified?
I am sorry, I figured everyone here are railfans or railroaders and have a basic knowledge of the subject. Sometimes we old farts take too much for granted. Basically, if you look at a railroad grade crossing sign or crossbucks, the one of the right as you face the tracks and is facing road traffic, you'll see there is a tag that identifies the grade crossing by railroad, mile post, road name, some other information, plus an 800 number to call in case of problems or questions. The plaque is about three or so inches wide and maybe eight or so inches high, usually off white with black letters. I've seen some being of reflective material but that's not the norm.
henry6In effect, it is none of his business and there is no legal reason he has to know any of that material except maybe the grade crossing designation when 911'ing an accident.
My grade school art teacher told me I couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler. I didn't draw this line. It is on the diagram. It is a straight line down the middle of the diagram and the first interlocking east and west of the line is marked 0.1. It is the point zero from which all other calculations are made. It is not my doing. No, you won't see it marked on the platform. But it exists for technical purposes.
henry6The line goes straight down the mid point of all the platforms
The line goes straight down the mid point of all the platforms, the mid point of the "station", the mid point of the page so that all tracks are at zero paralleled east and west.
You must be referring to the platform between tracks 11-12? It was extended around 1930, so if MP 0 was originally at that platform's midpoint (which it wasn't) it wouldn't be at the midpoint now.
I stand corrected about MP 0 at NYP. It is not west of the platforms but is at the exact mid point of the platforms! with interlockings at each end marked as being at MP 0.1.
If you go to NYP there is a MP0 somewhere at the west end of the platforms...it is designated somewhere in the ETT's and on the diagrams but I'm not home to look. And, timz, NO I MEANT 7.2 BECAUSE, AS I SAID IN MY POST, THAT IS WHAT BOTH DIAGRAMS READ: 7.2 or 8.3 AT THE BEGINNING OF THE INTERLOCKING LIMITS. And if they are in error, you better tell them because they evidently aren't operating right since they are operating with the wrong information. Actually the 1.O at JC was for the ferry ride and it was never changed in tribute to the PRR or, as I have pointed out, it would mean changing a lot of numbers, mile posts, signal and switch numbers all the way to Philadelphia and Pittsburgh depending on which line you are running on. The complications of changing all those things are so confusing and entangled that is not worth bothering doing anything with it but leave it as it is. But why does it bother you so much?
daveklepper where along which platform at Penn Station is zero?
henry6 NJT track diagram books from 2005 and 2011 both show Hudson to be 8.3 miles from Penn Sta and 7.2 miles from Jersey City
If anyone is rabid enough to want to do it, Dave, they have my permission. But I don't know them.
Incidently, checking the NJT track diagram books from 2005 and 2011 both show Hudson to be 8.3 miles from Penn Sta and 7.2 miles from Jersey City. Differences in the employee timetables, therefore, is the definition of the designated "location" for block operating purposes. In other words the rairoad hasn't changed but the designated point has been moved or renamed on paper at least.. It could be that the original designation was at the beginning of the interlocking limit or at the first switch westbound and now the designation is at a marker in the middle of the interlocking. Dock remains at 8.5.
Can you get permission to walk through the NEC Hudson River Tunnels? Also, where along which platform at Penn Station is zero?
I have an explanation for the latest change.
Possibly the New York Connecting railroad, the line to the Hell Gate Bridge and to New Rochelle, used a different starting point in the Penn Station complex than did the PRR, and the LIRR may have used a third. Possiblyi the latest change was to get all these starting points together.
Similarly the Trenton point may be have been a division between SEPTA and NJT although Amtrak is the owner, or possibly a matter of maintenance responsibilities.
timz schlimm: Seems like it would be easy enough to verify the accuracy of ETT's and TT's Easier now than it used to be, now that we can measure distances on Google Maps. (Hard to believe how good a job Google does.) But aside from that, how would you find out if NY Penn to Newark is 9.9 or 10.5 miles-- i.e. whether the 1978 or 2010 ETT is right?
schlimm: Seems like it would be easy enough to verify the accuracy of ETT's and TT's
Walk from NYP to Newark Penn with a pedometer. Or read books or the internet postings that give you the answer. OR if it is so important why not write AMtrak or NJTransit and ask them.
schlimmSeems like it would be easy enough to verify the accuracy of ETT's and TT's
timz henry6: Nobody is on the ground with "incomplete and often wrong" information. That's not how railroads work. Except when they do. If you look at the 1978 employee timetable you'll see 9.0 + 1.5 miles between NY Penn and Newark; look at the 2010 timetable you'll see 8.8 + 1.1 miles.
henry6: Nobody is on the ground with "incomplete and often wrong" information. That's not how railroads work.
If you look at the 1978 employee timetable you'll see 9.0 + 1.5 miles between NY Penn and Newark; look at the 2010 timetable you'll see 8.8 + 1.1 miles.
Sclimm, it is a question of whether or not anything exists that guides railroad. ETT's, track diagrams, AAR accounting of grade crossings, property maps, books of rules, whatever has to be known by the employees to operate the railroad.
But timz, your quote above means nothing...I don't care. I don't have to care. An engineer reading a train order, a conductor having to know his location, a signalman or trackman haveing to do maintenance, a train dispatcher or operator handling traffic, and others have to care and know. They not only have read thier timetables; books of rules; schedules; daily, weekly and monthly bullitens and whatever else is pertaining to their jobs. If the reason the change was made is important to them, it is in that paper work. As a railfan, I don't have to know that. But you know what? As a railfan, I would like to know that as a matter of reference, of trivia and minutea, of interest because I am a railfan intererested in the PRR and AMtrak and New Jersey. But the world isn't going to cave in if I don't learn it. And I don't believe there is a conspiracy of some kind trying to keep the information from me. It is just that in the great scheme of things, it shouldn't matter to me.
What you've got to accept, tmz, is that all that knowledge is assembled, transmitted and commuted to those who have to know, and is tested and used daily in so many ways by so many people. It is a fact, or "the truth" as you so offhandedly labeled it. It is not for railfans or the genral public but for the employees of the railroad. It doesn't matter whether we or anybody else knows or even wants to know.
I was just surfing through threads and noticed this one seems active. I can't quite understand the controversy, however. Seems like it would be easy enough to verify the accuracy of ETT's and TT's, one way or t'other.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
henry6 Nobody is on the ground with "incomplete and often wrong" information. That's not how railroads work.
timz Dragoman: as changes get made, they are not documented or poorly documented Like many others, henry6 imagines that somewhere, in some distant kingdom that mere mortals could never aspire to visit, the keepers of the flame have The Truth preserved on parchment scrolls. (How did The Truth get onto the scrolls, you ask? How did the Ten Commandments get onto the stone tablets?) I am trying to figure out what the %$$*^ you mean by that statement. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't apply to anything I said. "The truth" you talk about is not some mystical or empherical thought but hard facts and figures and is a lot easier to prove how it got there than by hypothetical theories of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Ten Commandments. You are way off base here and makes me suspect of you. Unfortunately, when we need info to print an employee timetable or a track chart, we can't very well ask the high priests to dig out the proper scroll. They're above such mundane pursuits. So the timetables and track charts that people actually carry around are always incomplete and often wrong here and there. The "we" who need to print a new employee timetable is not you and me but the employees charged with the job, have the information at thier disposal. Railroads print charts, diagrams, timetables, schedules, rules, special rules, etc. on a regular basis. In addition changes and updated information are published and given to employees who need to know weekly, more often in emergencies. Each employee is charged with being familiar with all information about the activity of his job and is tested...yes, just like school...tested frequently and is subject to instant on site inspections and quizings to be sure the employeee is prepared with the latest information, rules, etc. Nobody is on the ground with "incomplete and often wrong" information. That's not how railroads work. In PRR days Newark was 10.0 miles from NY Penn. The 2010 employee timetable shows 9.9 miles, which could be right for all we know-- but the 1978 timetable shows 10.5, which sure isn't right. Somebody took a wrong turn on his trek to the distant kingdom. The PRR called NY-Trenton 58.1 miles, which I suspect is correct; the 2010 timetable says 57.8. If you are any kind of railfan and have followed the PRR history as well as Amtrak history...all of this has been covered in these threads plus in Trains Magazine and others, and in many publications...that the first NY terminal for PRR was Jersey City, NJ then later New York's Pennsylvania Station. At Hudson, where the two lines actually come together there is a difference in milage. It has been like that for 100 years. It won't change in the timetables, on track charts, or anyplace else for the time being because it would mean the theoreticaly resetting of every mile marker to the far end of virtuallly every former PRR track.
Dragoman: as changes get made, they are not documented or poorly documented
Like many others, henry6 imagines that somewhere, in some distant kingdom that mere mortals could never aspire to visit, the keepers of the flame have The Truth preserved on parchment scrolls. (How did The Truth get onto the scrolls, you ask? How did the Ten Commandments get onto the stone tablets?)
I am trying to figure out what the %$$*^ you mean by that statement. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't apply to anything I said. "The truth" you talk about is not some mystical or empherical thought but hard facts and figures and is a lot easier to prove how it got there than by hypothetical theories of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Ten Commandments. You are way off base here and makes me suspect of you.
Unfortunately, when we need info to print an employee timetable or a track chart, we can't very well ask the high priests to dig out the proper scroll. They're above such mundane pursuits. So the timetables and track charts that people actually carry around are always incomplete and often wrong here and there.
The "we" who need to print a new employee timetable is not you and me but the employees charged with the job, have the information at thier disposal. Railroads print charts, diagrams, timetables, schedules, rules, special rules, etc. on a regular basis. In addition changes and updated information are published and given to employees who need to know weekly, more often in emergencies. Each employee is charged with being familiar with all information about the activity of his job and is tested...yes, just like school...tested frequently and is subject to instant on site inspections and quizings to be sure the employeee is prepared with the latest information, rules, etc. Nobody is on the ground with "incomplete and often wrong" information. That's not how railroads work.
In PRR days Newark was 10.0 miles from NY Penn. The 2010 employee timetable shows 9.9 miles, which could be right for all we know-- but the 1978 timetable shows 10.5, which sure isn't right. Somebody took a wrong turn on his trek to the distant kingdom. The PRR called NY-Trenton 58.1 miles, which I suspect is correct; the 2010 timetable says 57.8.
If you are any kind of railfan and have followed the PRR history as well as Amtrak history...all of this has been covered in these threads plus in Trains Magazine and others, and in many publications...that the first NY terminal for PRR was Jersey City, NJ then later New York's Pennsylvania Station. At Hudson, where the two lines actually come together there is a difference in milage. It has been like that for 100 years. It won't change in the timetables, on track charts, or anyplace else for the time being because it would mean the theoreticaly resetting of every mile marker to the far end of virtuallly every former PRR track.
Dragomanas changes get made, they are not documented or poorly documented
I agree, Henry (though there are stories about tax collectors making mistakes ... that would be for a different forum!!). The thrill of discovery, in an subject one loves ...
Museums and their volunteers are far different than the railroad president, trainmaster, roadmaster, design engineer, locomotive engineer,conductor, traffic agent or anybody else on the railraod. Railroaders need to know, so do. Outsiders have no reason to know so it is no big deal not telling them. That being said, my point about the railfan's challenge or job, or interest is the poiint: that if he wants to know for railfan sake, then he has to do the digging and putting pieces together and find joy in doing it. In effect, it is none of his business and there is no legal reason he has to know any of that material except maybe the grade crossing designation when 911'ing an accident. A good one today is who owns the track? For instance: in BIngahtmon,NY you can see a BNSF or UP locomotive leaving cars off for the NYS&W from a CP train operated for and my NS. Unless your a fan, who's to care as long as the NYSW knows NS is delivering the CP cars at noon today? Frito Lay only want to know where the potatos and corn oil is. ANd that's no body's business but between FL and the Central NY Railroad at this point! At the same spot and with the same cut of cars: former DL&W track, SB&NY, Erie, Delaware and Hudson, EL, CR plus new NYSW track connecting to the Central New York RY track. Again, only the tax collector really have to know which is which and belongs to whom. A railfan doesn't have to know no matter how much he wants to know; thus the fun challange of being a railfan.
I do appreciate what you are saying, Henry, and agree as to basic or foundational records.
And, I often wonder how much common practical operating information is primarily "in someone's head". It appears that sometimes, "common knowledge" may not get written down, or may get lost over time (even if it is only mis-filed, or accidentally thrown out during a move or reorganization), because at the time the information is important, no one refers to the documents -- they know the information. Or as changes get made, they are not documented or poorly documented (the architect's plans are there, but the changes made in the field during construction don't get into the documents).
How many times, on this or the "Classic Trains" forum (or even at a museum or reference library!), does someone ask a question about an historical item, or diagram, or photograph, the answer to which must have been common knowlege at the time, but now no one knows what it was used for, or how it was used.
How many times do construction crews run into unexpected infrastructure (abandoned foundations, pipes, etc.), because they are no longer shown on the public records? Heck, here in Northern California, a major utility recently suffered a catastrophic failure of an active natural gas transmission line. Turns out the current records indicated that it was a seamless pipe which had been appropriately inspected. The reality was that it was a welded-seam pipe. It is taking them many months to provide requested records to the state PUC. Yes, there are records, but both their accuracy and accessibilty is quite questionable. And that is for a currently-active, highly-regulated operation!
No, Henry, I suspect you put too much trust in the "system".
Grade crossing are all cataloged in the US, too, so all concerns are met. And Tmz, what does it matter? Two hundred years from now all will be gone as we know it. Everything that needs to be known for safety, maintentance, taxes, deeds, operations, ownership, rentals, leases, weight, distance, and whatever else, is recorded and preserved someplace. Those who need that information have access to it an know where to go to get it; and they understand it. These things are for the owners/operators and employees of any given railroad and stretch of track and need not be known by anybody else. Rairoads are run for the benefit of owners-stockholders and their customers and not for railfans. While many railfans would enjoy knowing all that stuff, it is not necessary for the benefit of the railroad or its employees that railfans know. As I said, part of the fun of being a railfan is putting all these things together to figure out what it is before somebody changes something for some reason; then you've got to start figureing things out all over again. There is nothing offhanded or criminal in the way things are.
Actually, henry6, there is a safety aspect to all this (although that wasn't the reason I posted the original question--I was merely trying to pinpoint the location, in railroad terms, of some pictures I took nearly thirty years ago).
Here in Canada, every public crossing at grade is posted with a toll-free number and an exact mileage location so that in case of an emergency the RTC (or whoever) can be told where the problem is. The location is always given as "Mile xx.xx, Such-and-such sub. (or spur, branch or whatever)". Granted, crossings at grade are less of a concern in the NEC (although there are still a few, I understand), but there does seem to be an advantage to being able to let crews and supervisors know precise locations, and to be able to distinguish, for example, between mile 28.6 of one section of the NEC and mile 28.6 of another section.
In the case of the NEC, the issue would be dealt with if the entire line from Boston to Washington was measured straight through from one end to the other, but I understand that this is not the case.
henry6It's all there on paper alright
It's all there on paper alright, Timz, just not in railfan form. It is gathered and stored on a need to know basis...those that need to know, know. As for Daylner's comment about "for safety"...doesn't matter or mean a thing. Again, those who have to know what there is to know, know. As far as the entier NEC, it is all there...tax maps, track maps, property maps, drainage maps, diagrams for clearances up down and all around, deeds, easements, timetables, books of rules, everything is there for those who need to know what has to be known when it has to be known. It is no one else's business, espcially railfans. All that being said, it is the fun of being a railfan to take all this disparate information and plug it in here, fit it there, go up, put down, and maybe get a picture of what is or what was. For safety? Nah! For fun? Yep. What does it mean to me? Nothing. Well, checking the track diagrms, with the elevation diagrams, knowing the station locations and the switch locations (and whether they are electric, air, spring, or electric lock or hand thrown...facing or pointing) matched up to a timetable of today and one for each decade back to 1900 along with each book of rules., then it means weeks of fun and discovery! But safety? Huh, huh.
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