I'm learning something about the complex history and ownership of the line we usually refer to as the "Northeast Corridor", that it wasn't built as such and is a knitting-together of many former lines. I understand that the mileposts on the route do not run consecutively from one end of the line to the other. As far as I can determine, the NEC is divided (in terms of milepost numbering) into four sections: Boston-New York (the former NYNH&H and predecessors); and New York-Philadelphia, Philadelphia-Landover and Landover-Washington (the former PRR and predecessors). What is the designation of each of these line segments today?
Thanks in advance!
You actually are missing several "segments" that make up the Corridor...I believe there is a Boston to New Haven, New Haven to New Rochelle, New Rochelle to Sunnyside, Sunnyside to Penn Sta, Penn Sta to Harold, Harold to Trenton, Trenton to Philadelphia, Philadelphia to Wilmington and Wilmington to Ivy City. These are different divisions of different railroads of different eras. I am sure an Amtrak employee or Employees timetable can put them all together for you. Good Luck!
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From the Amtrak operating timetable, the mileage segments for the NE Corridor are Boston South Station to CP 216 (near New Rochelle) , CP 216 (via Hell Gate) to Penn Station, Penn Station to Hudson, Hudson to 30th St (Philadelphia), 30th St. through Washington Union Station to Virginia Ave. Even though Metro North owns the track from Grand Central to New Haven, and Amtrak uses Metro North between New Haven and CP216, the mileposts have not been changed.
Henry, are you sure you want go back to Harold after passing through there on the way from Boston?
Johnny
Starting from Boston I think the mileposts go like this--
Counting down to Milepost Zero at 42nd St in Manhattan (i.e. a bit south of the end of track at GCT) as far as the junction just west of New Rochelle, then
Counting down to Milepost Zero At NY Penn-- hopefully the same Milepost Zero as they used going west from NY Penn, but who knows. It seems westward Milepost Zero isn't quite midway between 7th Ave and 8th Ave; maybe it was the center of the waiting room?
West from NY Penn the mileposts shift at about 8.6 from NY Penn, jumping back to about 7.2 from downtown NY. There was no actual Milepost Zero downtown; end of track at Jersey City was set at MP 1 exactly.
Hard to say where the next change is-- maybe Zoo, maybe Arsenal-- probably not 30th St. In any case, Arsenal to somewhere near Washington (Washington Union Terminal limits?) is mileposted from Zero at Broad St Philadelphia.
timz Starting from Boston I think the mileposts go like this-- Counting down to Milepost Zero at 42nd St in Manhattan (i.e. a bit south of the end of track at GCT) as far as the junction just west of New Rochelle, then Counting down to Milepost Zero At NY Penn-- hopefully the same Milepost Zero as they used going west from NY Penn, but who knows. It seems westward Milepost Zero isn't quite midway between 7th Ave and 8th Ave; maybe it was the center of the waiting room? West from NY Penn the mileposts shift at about 8.6 from NY Penn, jumping back to about 7.2 from downtown NY. There was no actual Milepost Zero downtown; end of track at Jersey City was set at MP 1 exactly. Hard to say where the next change is-- maybe Zoo, maybe Arsenal-- probably not 30th St. In any case, Arsenal to somewhere near Washington (Washington Union Terminal limits?) is mileposted from Zero at Broad St Philadelphia.
Now consider the practice followed on other roads, the SP and the Hill roads in particular. If there was a change in actual mileage on the SP, you would find two different mp's at a station--the first one is the new mp after the change, and the second one is the original mp. It's easy to spot these in the employee tt. The Hill roads (NP, GN, & Q, in particular) will show the distance from station to station in the station column--and the sum of these distances is not always the same as the distances indicated by the mile posts; for instance, the distance from Chicago Union Station to Pacific Junction is 475.7 miles--but Pacific Junction is at mp 475.5 (there are many differences along the way, but my quick reference shows the overall, and not the individual differences).
And, you will have an interesting note in a tt, such as the one in the CSX tt with the line from Jacksonville to Tampa that tells you that it is so many feet (0.1 mile is the closest in miles) from mp 768 to mp 771, and the one in the Rio Grande tt that tells you that it is so many feet (0.7 mile is the closest in miles) from mp 393 to 395.
By the way, remember that the NE Corridor does not go through Grand Central, but uses the Hell Gate Bridge, so you have the change near New Rochelle.
While considering lines other than the NE Corridor, I find it interesting that Penn Station is closer to the junction (CP12) with the Grand Central-Rensselaer line than Grand Central is--CP12 is only 10.2 miles from Penn Station, but is 11.8 miles from Grand Central.
Deggesty As well as I can tell, 30th St. (on the NYC-Washington track) is mp 89.2, and it is mp 1.5 from Broad Street.
Timz, I at last pulled an Amtrak tt out, to see what it (not my"quick reference," which is a listing of my miles) says.
The lower level of 30th St. is 1.5 miles from Zoo, which is at mp 88.0 on the line from Jersey City. Now, just where on Zoo is not stated--it just notes "Zoo." Penn is also 1.5 miles from Zoo. The next point shown after Penn is Civic--which is 2.3 miles from the suburban station. After Civic is Phil (3.6 mi.), which apparently is a connection to the Harrisburg line for C. R. C. (8-25-86 tt), and then Brill (4.2 mi.), and Darby (6.1 mi.)
The PRR always irritated me because it did not show the distance between stations.
Thanks so much! This is certainly filling in some of the gaps in my knowledge. But my original question is still unanswered--viz., what are the names of the various segments?
Dayliner Thanks so much! This is certainly filling in some of the gaps in my knowledge. But my original question is still unanswered--viz., what are the names of the various segments?
Deggesty Henry, are you sure you want go back to Harold after passing through there on the way from Boston?
As a railfan, probably yes. As a traveler my goal would be Hudson..we H's have to stay together even if not in order.
There is no real answer, at least not one honed the way you wish. Overall, it has been answered according to Amtrak official operating procedures and documents. Still there are leftovers from Conrail, Penn Central, New Haven, and PRR offical procedures and documents coupled with coloquialisms and other unoffcial designations. Each segment has gone through many physical changes since being built plus railroads were prone to move segments on paper from one division or sub or branch or whatever to another...but as I said it was on paper, could have lasted a week or never changed. A lot is probably simplified for operations sake instead of the NHNR division from New Haven to New Rochelle and NR to HGW from New Rochelle to Hell Gate West and HFWH Hell Gate West to Harold, say, it is just New Haven to Harold on whatever the designation is (not having an Amtrak employees timetable handy).
henry6 Deggesty: Henry, are you sure you want go back to Harold after passing through there on the way from Boston? As a railfan, probably yes. As a traveler my goal would be Hudson..we H's have to stay together even if not in order.
Deggesty: Henry, are you sure you want go back to Harold after passing through there on the way from Boston?
Thanks again--the question may not be answered, but I sure learned a lot! Complicated trackage with a complicated history means there is no simple track designation, obviously. I'm just a little surprised, from a safety point of view, that there is not a straightforward way of identifying every inch of line along the NEC.
Well every inch of every right of way is registered, designated, and otherwise accounted for, including the Northeast Corridor. This information is in employee timetables, schedules, books of rules, track diagrams, property and tax maps, etc. and are for the eyes of employees of the railroads only. There is no reason to(and many reasons to not) allow the general public to have access to that information. That being said, there is a lot of this information out there in the hands of railfans. The information is in a form for the benefit of railroads and their employees; fans want the same information for other reasons than which it is presented.
Deggesty henry6: Deggesty: Henry, are you sure you want go back to Harold after passing through there on the way from Boston? As a railfan, probably yes. As a traveler my goal would be Hudson..we H's have to stay together even if not in order. Oh Henry! Very good.
henry6: Deggesty: Henry, are you sure you want go back to Harold after passing through there on the way from Boston? As a railfan, probably yes. As a traveler my goal would be Hudson..we H's have to stay together even if not in order.
Didn't you ever wonder where the phrase "where the 'H' are we?" came from?
Dayliner I'm just a little surprised, from a safety point of view, that there is not a straightforward way of identifying every inch of line along the NEC.
So before they get around to broadening any curves they've already lost the exact distance. Then they do broaden some curves (or maybe just lengthen spirals, which will have the same effect). Then they rearrange the whole railroad between Zoo and Arsenal (which shifts the mileposts)-- then they rearrange it again a few decades later. That's all before Penn Central comes along-- maybe PC didn't change the RR much, but who knows how much old paper they dumped. Then Amtrak comes along and makes more changes to the railroad.
Some railfans like to think all the information is naturally all on paper in a vault somewhere. There may be a vault, and if we're lucky it's stuffed with bales of info, some up to date and some not, and some unknown percentage that was never right in the first place. The hopefully up to date info doesn't quite agree with the old info-- do we know why? Whoever knew the answer to that retired fifty years ago.
It's all there on paper alright, Timz, just not in railfan form. It is gathered and stored on a need to know basis...those that need to know, know. As for Daylner's comment about "for safety"...doesn't matter or mean a thing. Again, those who have to know what there is to know, know. As far as the entier NEC, it is all there...tax maps, track maps, property maps, drainage maps, diagrams for clearances up down and all around, deeds, easements, timetables, books of rules, everything is there for those who need to know what has to be known when it has to be known. It is no one else's business, espcially railfans. All that being said, it is the fun of being a railfan to take all this disparate information and plug it in here, fit it there, go up, put down, and maybe get a picture of what is or what was. For safety? Nah! For fun? Yep. What does it mean to me? Nothing. Well, checking the track diagrms, with the elevation diagrams, knowing the station locations and the switch locations (and whether they are electric, air, spring, or electric lock or hand thrown...facing or pointing) matched up to a timetable of today and one for each decade back to 1900 along with each book of rules., then it means weeks of fun and discovery! But safety? Huh, huh.
henry6It's all there on paper alright
Actually, henry6, there is a safety aspect to all this (although that wasn't the reason I posted the original question--I was merely trying to pinpoint the location, in railroad terms, of some pictures I took nearly thirty years ago).
Here in Canada, every public crossing at grade is posted with a toll-free number and an exact mileage location so that in case of an emergency the RTC (or whoever) can be told where the problem is. The location is always given as "Mile xx.xx, Such-and-such sub. (or spur, branch or whatever)". Granted, crossings at grade are less of a concern in the NEC (although there are still a few, I understand), but there does seem to be an advantage to being able to let crews and supervisors know precise locations, and to be able to distinguish, for example, between mile 28.6 of one section of the NEC and mile 28.6 of another section.
In the case of the NEC, the issue would be dealt with if the entire line from Boston to Washington was measured straight through from one end to the other, but I understand that this is not the case.
Grade crossing are all cataloged in the US, too, so all concerns are met. And Tmz, what does it matter? Two hundred years from now all will be gone as we know it. Everything that needs to be known for safety, maintentance, taxes, deeds, operations, ownership, rentals, leases, weight, distance, and whatever else, is recorded and preserved someplace. Those who need that information have access to it an know where to go to get it; and they understand it. These things are for the owners/operators and employees of any given railroad and stretch of track and need not be known by anybody else. Rairoads are run for the benefit of owners-stockholders and their customers and not for railfans. While many railfans would enjoy knowing all that stuff, it is not necessary for the benefit of the railroad or its employees that railfans know. As I said, part of the fun of being a railfan is putting all these things together to figure out what it is before somebody changes something for some reason; then you've got to start figureing things out all over again. There is nothing offhanded or criminal in the way things are.
I do appreciate what you are saying, Henry, and agree as to basic or foundational records.
And, I often wonder how much common practical operating information is primarily "in someone's head". It appears that sometimes, "common knowledge" may not get written down, or may get lost over time (even if it is only mis-filed, or accidentally thrown out during a move or reorganization), because at the time the information is important, no one refers to the documents -- they know the information. Or as changes get made, they are not documented or poorly documented (the architect's plans are there, but the changes made in the field during construction don't get into the documents).
How many times, on this or the "Classic Trains" forum (or even at a museum or reference library!), does someone ask a question about an historical item, or diagram, or photograph, the answer to which must have been common knowlege at the time, but now no one knows what it was used for, or how it was used.
How many times do construction crews run into unexpected infrastructure (abandoned foundations, pipes, etc.), because they are no longer shown on the public records? Heck, here in Northern California, a major utility recently suffered a catastrophic failure of an active natural gas transmission line. Turns out the current records indicated that it was a seamless pipe which had been appropriately inspected. The reality was that it was a welded-seam pipe. It is taking them many months to provide requested records to the state PUC. Yes, there are records, but both their accuracy and accessibilty is quite questionable. And that is for a currently-active, highly-regulated operation!
No, Henry, I suspect you put too much trust in the "system".
Museums and their volunteers are far different than the railroad president, trainmaster, roadmaster, design engineer, locomotive engineer,conductor, traffic agent or anybody else on the railraod. Railroaders need to know, so do. Outsiders have no reason to know so it is no big deal not telling them. That being said, my point about the railfan's challenge or job, or interest is the poiint: that if he wants to know for railfan sake, then he has to do the digging and putting pieces together and find joy in doing it. In effect, it is none of his business and there is no legal reason he has to know any of that material except maybe the grade crossing designation when 911'ing an accident. A good one today is who owns the track? For instance: in BIngahtmon,NY you can see a BNSF or UP locomotive leaving cars off for the NYS&W from a CP train operated for and my NS. Unless your a fan, who's to care as long as the NYSW knows NS is delivering the CP cars at noon today? Frito Lay only want to know where the potatos and corn oil is. ANd that's no body's business but between FL and the Central NY Railroad at this point! At the same spot and with the same cut of cars: former DL&W track, SB&NY, Erie, Delaware and Hudson, EL, CR plus new NYSW track connecting to the Central New York RY track. Again, only the tax collector really have to know which is which and belongs to whom. A railfan doesn't have to know no matter how much he wants to know; thus the fun challange of being a railfan.
I agree, Henry (though there are stories about tax collectors making mistakes ... that would be for a different forum!!). The thrill of discovery, in an subject one loves ...
Dragomanas changes get made, they are not documented or poorly documented
Like many others, henry6 imagines that somewhere, in some distant kingdom that mere mortals could never aspire to visit, the keepers of the flame have The Truth preserved on parchment scrolls. (How did The Truth get onto the scrolls, you ask? How did the Ten Commandments get onto the stone tablets?)
Unfortunately, when we need info to print an employee timetable or a track chart, we can't very well ask the high priests to dig out the proper scroll. They're above such mundane pursuits. So the timetables and track charts that people actually carry around are always incomplete and often wrong here and there.
In PRR days Newark was 10.0 miles from NY Penn. The 2010 employee timetable shows 9.9 miles, which could be right for all we know-- but the 1978 timetable shows 10.5, which sure isn't right. Somebody took a wrong turn on his trek to the distant kingdom. The PRR called NY-Trenton 58.1 miles, which I suspect is correct; the 2010 timetable says 57.8.
timz Dragoman: as changes get made, they are not documented or poorly documented Like many others, henry6 imagines that somewhere, in some distant kingdom that mere mortals could never aspire to visit, the keepers of the flame have The Truth preserved on parchment scrolls. (How did The Truth get onto the scrolls, you ask? How did the Ten Commandments get onto the stone tablets?) I am trying to figure out what the %$$*^ you mean by that statement. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't apply to anything I said. "The truth" you talk about is not some mystical or empherical thought but hard facts and figures and is a lot easier to prove how it got there than by hypothetical theories of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Ten Commandments. You are way off base here and makes me suspect of you. Unfortunately, when we need info to print an employee timetable or a track chart, we can't very well ask the high priests to dig out the proper scroll. They're above such mundane pursuits. So the timetables and track charts that people actually carry around are always incomplete and often wrong here and there. The "we" who need to print a new employee timetable is not you and me but the employees charged with the job, have the information at thier disposal. Railroads print charts, diagrams, timetables, schedules, rules, special rules, etc. on a regular basis. In addition changes and updated information are published and given to employees who need to know weekly, more often in emergencies. Each employee is charged with being familiar with all information about the activity of his job and is tested...yes, just like school...tested frequently and is subject to instant on site inspections and quizings to be sure the employeee is prepared with the latest information, rules, etc. Nobody is on the ground with "incomplete and often wrong" information. That's not how railroads work. In PRR days Newark was 10.0 miles from NY Penn. The 2010 employee timetable shows 9.9 miles, which could be right for all we know-- but the 1978 timetable shows 10.5, which sure isn't right. Somebody took a wrong turn on his trek to the distant kingdom. The PRR called NY-Trenton 58.1 miles, which I suspect is correct; the 2010 timetable says 57.8. If you are any kind of railfan and have followed the PRR history as well as Amtrak history...all of this has been covered in these threads plus in Trains Magazine and others, and in many publications...that the first NY terminal for PRR was Jersey City, NJ then later New York's Pennsylvania Station. At Hudson, where the two lines actually come together there is a difference in milage. It has been like that for 100 years. It won't change in the timetables, on track charts, or anyplace else for the time being because it would mean the theoreticaly resetting of every mile marker to the far end of virtuallly every former PRR track.
Dragoman: as changes get made, they are not documented or poorly documented
I am trying to figure out what the %$$*^ you mean by that statement. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't apply to anything I said. "The truth" you talk about is not some mystical or empherical thought but hard facts and figures and is a lot easier to prove how it got there than by hypothetical theories of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Ten Commandments. You are way off base here and makes me suspect of you.
The "we" who need to print a new employee timetable is not you and me but the employees charged with the job, have the information at thier disposal. Railroads print charts, diagrams, timetables, schedules, rules, special rules, etc. on a regular basis. In addition changes and updated information are published and given to employees who need to know weekly, more often in emergencies. Each employee is charged with being familiar with all information about the activity of his job and is tested...yes, just like school...tested frequently and is subject to instant on site inspections and quizings to be sure the employeee is prepared with the latest information, rules, etc. Nobody is on the ground with "incomplete and often wrong" information. That's not how railroads work.
If you are any kind of railfan and have followed the PRR history as well as Amtrak history...all of this has been covered in these threads plus in Trains Magazine and others, and in many publications...that the first NY terminal for PRR was Jersey City, NJ then later New York's Pennsylvania Station. At Hudson, where the two lines actually come together there is a difference in milage. It has been like that for 100 years. It won't change in the timetables, on track charts, or anyplace else for the time being because it would mean the theoreticaly resetting of every mile marker to the far end of virtuallly every former PRR track.
henry6 Nobody is on the ground with "incomplete and often wrong" information. That's not how railroads work.
If you look at the 1978 employee timetable you'll see 9.0 + 1.5 miles between NY Penn and Newark; look at the 2010 timetable you'll see 8.8 + 1.1 miles.
I was just surfing through threads and noticed this one seems active. I can't quite understand the controversy, however. Seems like it would be easy enough to verify the accuracy of ETT's and TT's, one way or t'other.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
timz henry6: Nobody is on the ground with "incomplete and often wrong" information. That's not how railroads work. Except when they do. If you look at the 1978 employee timetable you'll see 9.0 + 1.5 miles between NY Penn and Newark; look at the 2010 timetable you'll see 8.8 + 1.1 miles.
henry6: Nobody is on the ground with "incomplete and often wrong" information. That's not how railroads work.
Sclimm, it is a question of whether or not anything exists that guides railroad. ETT's, track diagrams, AAR accounting of grade crossings, property maps, books of rules, whatever has to be known by the employees to operate the railroad.
But timz, your quote above means nothing...I don't care. I don't have to care. An engineer reading a train order, a conductor having to know his location, a signalman or trackman haveing to do maintenance, a train dispatcher or operator handling traffic, and others have to care and know. They not only have read thier timetables; books of rules; schedules; daily, weekly and monthly bullitens and whatever else is pertaining to their jobs. If the reason the change was made is important to them, it is in that paper work. As a railfan, I don't have to know that. But you know what? As a railfan, I would like to know that as a matter of reference, of trivia and minutea, of interest because I am a railfan intererested in the PRR and AMtrak and New Jersey. But the world isn't going to cave in if I don't learn it. And I don't believe there is a conspiracy of some kind trying to keep the information from me. It is just that in the great scheme of things, it shouldn't matter to me.
What you've got to accept, tmz, is that all that knowledge is assembled, transmitted and commuted to those who have to know, and is tested and used daily in so many ways by so many people. It is a fact, or "the truth" as you so offhandedly labeled it. It is not for railfans or the genral public but for the employees of the railroad. It doesn't matter whether we or anybody else knows or even wants to know.
schlimmSeems like it would be easy enough to verify the accuracy of ETT's and TT's
timz schlimm: Seems like it would be easy enough to verify the accuracy of ETT's and TT's Easier now than it used to be, now that we can measure distances on Google Maps. (Hard to believe how good a job Google does.) But aside from that, how would you find out if NY Penn to Newark is 9.9 or 10.5 miles-- i.e. whether the 1978 or 2010 ETT is right?
schlimm: Seems like it would be easy enough to verify the accuracy of ETT's and TT's
Walk from NYP to Newark Penn with a pedometer. Or read books or the internet postings that give you the answer. OR if it is so important why not write AMtrak or NJTransit and ask them.
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