oltmannd Did I read recently that GE partners with an Chinese rail equipment manufacturer? Maybe the Chinese won't bid directly...
Did I read recently that GE partners with an Chinese rail equipment manufacturer? Maybe the Chinese won't bid directly...
I can see them also partnering with someone else besides GM----end up having some Korean/Chinese/German mix----
----or Japanese/Chinese---
---or----oh bother---
It will be interesting to see just who else throws their hat into the ring. From the looks of things there could be some interesting times ahead
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
oltmanndSounds like they are expecting us to have a touch of inflation - stimulus chickens coming home to roost? (maybe we should feed the corn to the stimulus chickens?)
Just to clarify and deflate the knee-jerk remark, taking the debt in trade began years before Obama when Bush was running up the debt for Iraq and Homeland Security (expanding government). Admittedly the situation hasn't improved.; and both China and Europe want to see better banking regulation.
Maybe China is just being nice now to avoid he cost of re-engineering everything and manufacturing to GE's specs. This is a transfer of technology and gives GE a short-term profit, both of which will come back to bite us. We'll see if GE walks away from the business in a couple years or is bought by Chinese investors.
Who next? Kenya? Malaysia? Illinois, I'll bet!
Hays
HarveyK400I don't know the source of a story told by a friend in international trade a few years ago already; but apparently China has asked to be repaid in commodities such as corn because the $US isn't worth that much. This coincides with the trans-Asian HSR proposal; and may be how any deal here may be structured.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndschlimmThru May, 09, 83% of our non-oil trade deficit was with China. It gets worse: In Jan. 2010, almost half our total trade deficit, including oil, was with China.That doesn't bother me so much. You don't have to be balanced with each partner, just balanced overall. But, China has a huge net trade surplus with everybody, not just us, so we're back to that currency thing. The one thing that we're really good at producing is food, and that's the one thing that scarier than oil to be dependent on as an import, so it's almost understandable why countries get protective of their home-grown food supply.
schlimmThru May, 09, 83% of our non-oil trade deficit was with China. It gets worse: In Jan. 2010, almost half our total trade deficit, including oil, was with China.
The one thing that we're really good at producing is food, and that's the one thing that scarier than oil to be dependent on as an import, so it's almost understandable why countries get protective of their home-grown food supply.
I don't know the source of a story told by a friend in international trade a few years ago already; but apparently China has asked to be repaid in commodities such as corn because the $US isn't worth that much. This coincides with the trans-Asian HSR proposal; and may be how any deal here may be structured.
oltmanndDid you know our trade deficit is almost exactly equal to our imported oil?
Quite true but see this:
http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/intlpic20090723/
Thru May, 09, 83% of our non-oil trade deficit was with China. It gets worse: In Jan. 2010, almost half our total trade deficit, including oil, was with China.
BTW, I guess I didn't catch your earlier sarcasm (also not for the first time).
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
henry6Balance of trade....used to be an oft touted stat but since we now import more than we export, we don't talk about it. We do export a lot of "culture", i.e. movies, tv shows, recorded music, "art and culture", rather than manufacutred goods and raw materials as in days of old. I believe both the Greek and Roman Empires fell when they had to resort to exporting "art and culture" rather than manufactured goods and raw materials. Can we bring ourselve back from this precipice and save our Empire?
schlimmDon: I believe you are confounding balance of trade with balance of payments. We are running (and have done so for years) an enormous trade deficit annually. Payments balance b/c China and other nations send back the dollars to buy out public (and some private) debt. Very different matters.
schlimmoltmanndAnd trade means that for every buck you send over, one comes back. If you constrain it, you sub-optimize - if everyone plays fair. Don: I believe you are confounding balance of trade with balance of payments. We are running (and have done so for years) an enormous trade deficit annually. Payments balance b/c China and other nations send back the dollars to buy out public (and some private) debt. Very different matters. oltmanndYes. China is cheating. Rather a glib response for a very serious concern.
oltmanndAnd trade means that for every buck you send over, one comes back. If you constrain it, you sub-optimize - if everyone plays fair.
Don: I believe you are confounding balance of trade with balance of payments. We are running (and have done so for years) an enormous trade deficit annually. Payments balance b/c China and other nations send back the dollars to buy out public (and some private) debt. Very different matters.
oltmanndYes. China is cheating.
Rather a glib response for a very serious concern.
schlimm oltmanndYes. China is cheating. Rather a glib response for a very serious concern.
I read the Krugman piece that you linked, and have a couple questions. Is China actually cheating or are they simply getting the best of us in the arena of world competition? I don’t quite follow how the charge of them cheating is made. What rules are they violating, and whose rules are they? Are they doing something they promised not to do? Are they violating international law?
Krugman’s suggestion of a 25% surcharge on Chinese imports is intended to retaliate with the aim of improving our economy. But what will that 25% surcharge do to our consumption in the U.S., and how will that drop in consumption affect our economy?
Balance of trade....used to be an oft touted stat but since we now import more than we export, we don't talk about it. We do export a lot of "culture", i.e. movies, tv shows, recorded music, "art and culture", rather than manufacutred goods and raw materials as in days of old. I believe both the Greek and Roman Empires fell when they had to resort to exporting "art and culture" rather than manufactured goods and raw materials. Can we bring ourselve back from this precipice and save our Empire?
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
schlimmRe: China. here is a link to a good article by Paul Krugman, a Nobel economist. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/15/opinion/15krugman.html
Re: China. here is a link to a good article by Paul Krugman, a Nobel economist.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/15/opinion/15krugman.html
schlimmEconomics teaches us that a buck spent multiplies within the economy, but only when spent primarily within that country.
I would not constrain rail car design and build needlessly. I would go with the best value. There is no intrinsic reason that construction could not be in the US.
Don: We are talking railroad cars, ROW engineering and infrastructure. The European Union countries are able to supply their own equipment. Last I looked, they have pretty high labor costs, about equal to ours. They buy European rail because they can. They are still in the business of manufacturing and haven't "outsourced" everything. We will have to buy upgrades for HSR abroad from abroad or hopefully from US divisions of European companies because we have largely been out of that business for years and have zero experience.
Economics teaches us that a buck spent multiplies within the economy, but only when spent primarily within that country.
henry6That all is a very niave belief that it all works that way. What is a fair return? Others elsewhere seem to be more patient in the long run and will take less than what our investors believe is fair in the short run; our investors what quick huge returns as soon as possible with no long term committment to quality of product or service nor to longevity of investment. And that money in FDIC accounts means nothing to this argument: the money is being used by investment bankers to shore up the return on investment, the fact that the government insures it means nothing to the investment community except to take advantage of the money and the money's depositors. People will go to Lowes to pay $2.95 on a Home Depot item at $3.00! The only time the American buyer becomes concerned with quality or service is after the act of buying. And as far as the buy from China who then buys corn from US to buy car from Germany, is a great theory which doen't always work in practice; we've allowed it to go too far without covering our internal nut. The fact is that American investors in search of quick and high returns will go for off shore manufacturing. And they can do it because the American buyer is willing to buy so cheap. Then we all stand around pointing fingers at the other guy for not having jobs and income in this country. There is a good arguement for interdependence but it also has to be tempered with responsible management.
That all is a very niave belief that it all works that way. What is a fair return? Others elsewhere seem to be more patient in the long run and will take less than what our investors believe is fair in the short run; our investors what quick huge returns as soon as possible with no long term committment to quality of product or service nor to longevity of investment. And that money in FDIC accounts means nothing to this argument: the money is being used by investment bankers to shore up the return on investment, the fact that the government insures it means nothing to the investment community except to take advantage of the money and the money's depositors.
People will go to Lowes to pay $2.95 on a Home Depot item at $3.00! The only time the American buyer becomes concerned with quality or service is after the act of buying. And as far as the buy from China who then buys corn from US to buy car from Germany, is a great theory which doen't always work in practice; we've allowed it to go too far without covering our internal nut. The fact is that American investors in search of quick and high returns will go for off shore manufacturing. And they can do it because the American buyer is willing to buy so cheap. Then we all stand around pointing fingers at the other guy for not having jobs and income in this country. There is a good arguement for interdependence but it also has to be tempered with responsible management.
You can thank cheap transportation for this. A shirt you buy from Lands End may very well have started as cotton in West Africa (even with price supports, US cotton has a hard time competing), been woven into cloth and dyed in the US, shipped to China or Costa Rica to be sewn into a shirt, then packaged and shipped back to Wisconsin for sale.
And the worlds steamship, rail and trucking companies will make it happen.
Well we are #1 in freight rail, but we lack expertise in design and building of High Speed Rail. I guess if everything is done here, we should listen to the experts that know HSR.
One other thing---find the $2.75 piece at Lowes----but in order to get it then have to drive for 20 minutes to "save" .25 cents----but how much $$$ got drained out'n the gas tank in the process?
I have seen this all too often, known people who do that kind of shopping.
Four guys wander into a bar in Ireland and see the sign, "all drinks 10 cents". They saddle up to the bar, order four martinis, pay the 40 cents, down the drinks and reorder; still 40 cents for four martinis! The ask the bar keep what's the deal and he explains he won the Irish Sweepstakes, was already a billionaire, so why not spread the joy. The four guys noticed that at the other end of the bar were a couple of guys not drinking. They asked the barkeep why and he replied, "Oh, they are American waiting for Happy Hour when drinks are half priced."
schlimmoltmanndHarveyK400 Now who's going to bury whom, Ronald Reagan?I think you have your politicians mixed up. Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev said "We will bury you!". Ronald Reagan said, "...tear down this wall!" I think you missed the sarcastic reversal..
oltmanndHarveyK400 Now who's going to bury whom, Ronald Reagan?I think you have your politicians mixed up. Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev said "We will bury you!". Ronald Reagan said, "...tear down this wall!"
HarveyK400 Now who's going to bury whom, Ronald Reagan?
I think you missed the sarcastic reversal..
henry6People will go to Lowes to pay $2.95 on a Home Depot item at $3.00! The only time the American buyer becomes concerned with quality or service is after the act of buying. And as far as the buy from China who then buys corn from US to buy car from Germany, is a great theory which doen't always work in practice; we've allowed it to go too far without covering our internal nut. The fact is that American investors in search of quick and high returns will go for off shore manufacturing. And they can do it because the American buyer is willing to buy so cheap. Then we all stand around pointing fingers at the other guy for not having jobs and income in this country. There is a good arguement for interdependence but it also has to be tempered with responsible management.
Most of this does sound a little like we have become TOO conscious of our billfold. At the same time grabbing for the bigger home and ELOC and all that. Wonderful combination. Then you throw this into the mix and the kvetching begins. One other thing---find the $2.75 piece at Lowes----but in order to get it then have to drive for 20 minutes to "save" .25 cents----but how much $$$ got drained out'n the gas tank in the process?
The thing I also get a kick out of as well is the issue of our local knowledge base. We've exported a lot of that out and/or closed a lot of the apprenticeships down without thinking about what happens then. Where did all of that go? Into saving the dollar bill. Short term thinking rules over any kind of longer term ideas.
I'm not saying that saving $$$$ should be thrown out but that we may have to re-introduce SOME kind of idea based in/around the concept of "investment" IN the country. I like the idea that some kind of a market for my products exist here.
Can you imagine a market that is about 30% "poorer" than it is now? Never mind taxes and all that. Just 30-40% poorer overall. A mainly pastoral economy? Some argue that for a sustainable economic base. Is this a picture some would like to see? Yet, I hear a fair bit of that. That debt load weighs awfully heavy in these pictures I've seen -----
What does all this have to do with HSR? A fair bit. Who is going to be able to travel on it for one thing. Is it affordable for a company to invest in it if you have a very small customer base? What would the price point on a HSR round trip ticket be if it was between, SF and Los Angeles, for example?
aargh---all kinds of things to peruse----
oltmanndhenry6American investors want to much return on their money, too fast. Who gets to decide how much is the right amount? I also think you are wrong. There is an awful lot of money sitting if FDIC insured passbook accounts - safe but earning very little. There are an awful lot of folks still paying on their underwater mortgages that they'd be better off walking away from. If the almighty $$ was all that was driving them, you wouldn't see this behavior. henry6 American consumers believe in the God given right to have everything and at as cheap a price as possible.Generally, yes. This is rational behavior. If I can buy a 2x4 at Home Depot for $3 but Lowes has is for $2, I'm buying it at Lowes (unless they are all warped - so a lesser value) People make these value judgments all the time. What we have the right to, is open markets. henry6Too often cheap isn't as cheap as they think.Caveat Emptor. Then the purchaser suffers the natural consequences of his behavior. The way this is supposed to work is, if everyone does what they do best, then production is maximized. if I buy trains from China, then China has money to by corn from the US. And, I have some money left over to buy some cars from Germany, so Germany can buy some beef from the US. If I buy my trains in the US, then China isn't buying any corn and Germany isn't buying any beef and the US doesn't get any German cars.
henry6American investors want to much return on their money, too fast.
I also think you are wrong. There is an awful lot of money sitting if FDIC insured passbook accounts - safe but earning very little. There are an awful lot of folks still paying on their underwater mortgages that they'd be better off walking away from. If the almighty $$ was all that was driving them, you wouldn't see this behavior.
henry6 American consumers believe in the God given right to have everything and at as cheap a price as possible.
People make these value judgments all the time. What we have the right to, is open markets.
henry6Too often cheap isn't as cheap as they think.
The way this is supposed to work is, if everyone does what they do best, then production is maximized. if I buy trains from China, then China has money to by corn from the US. And, I have some money left over to buy some cars from Germany, so Germany can buy some beef from the US. If I buy my trains in the US, then China isn't buying any corn and Germany isn't buying any beef and the US doesn't get any German cars.
jeatonWhat we don't have right now is an American company with a modern design for passenger cars on a shelf and an existing plant to manufacture the vehicles. Such a company is not going to come into existance without some reasonable level of risk that a market will exist long enough to be a profitable venture. Of course there are a number of passenger car builders that are headquartered in foreign countries, but if we insist they will build or buy the parts and assemble the cars in the U.S.
So, we might want to develop some passenger car design and build expertise as a strategic resource - which it seems Amtrak's purchase plans are all about - however goofy they seem otherwise.
cordonWhen we pay an American worker a dollar it can stay here, unless the worker spends it overseas. When we pay someone overseas a dollar, it's gone. Not one penny goes to your local gas station, your grocer, your hair dresser, your doctor, etc.
If you live in GA and buy a car made in Ohio, are you putting a Georgian out of work? If you live in Cleveland OH and buy a toy made in Hudson OH, are you taking a job away from a Clevelander?
American investors want to much return on their money, too fast. American consumers believe in the God given right to have everything and at as cheap a price as possible. Too often cheap isn't as cheap as they think.
I must say that I agree with the comments above that are not in favor of buying railroad equipment from China. I believe we should make it here.
To answer the question about whether I would prefer to make it here even if we could get twice as much for the same price from China, I say, "Yes." The hidden price we pay when we buy something "cheaper" from overseas is the American jobs lost because we are not buying from Americans.
Band Aid products now come from Brazil. I buy Nexcare, made in U.S.A. And I gladly pay more because I know there's an American job on the other end of the transaction.
The reason China has money and that we owe them a lot is that we keep buying stuff from them while we are putting Americans out of work.
When we pay an American worker a dollar it can stay here, unless the worker spends it overseas. When we pay someone overseas a dollar, it's gone. Not one penny goes to your local gas station, your grocer, your hair dresser, your doctor, etc.
Railroads made America great, and America made great railroads. We need to restore those practices, starting now.
China also is proposing a Eurasian HSR link through India, Iran, and the Balkans in exchange for natural resources. Maybe it's the same deal China would offer a cash-strapped US that would be hard to turn down. We can't compete with China's money for world oil supplies; and may be obliged to go by bike, bus, and train instead of auto. It was okay for businesses to sell out; why not the government? China certainly is more functional than the US at this point. Now who's going to bury whom, Ronald Reagan?
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