Possible schedule times may now be available.
In the sunset two tracking thread desert dog posted Amtrak's times that they provided to Az DOT at Maricopa proosed for the daily trains.
Listed were Maricopa EB at 8:15 AM and WB at 8:13 PM.
Of course an official proposed schedule would be helpful and if anyone on theSunset/Eagle route can locate one please post it!
Assumptions can be very disastorous but I will only guess a possible schedule.
If the Eagle is the thru train all times approximate until proposed schedule is disclosed. West Bound
CHI - 1600 Great times with slim chance of missed connections from, Michigan, CNO, Lakeshore, Cardinal, and Capitols.
Stl 2130 Whole day available in STL.
DWF 1630 Good for all day for passengers beyond FT. Worth going west. Connects to Heartland
SAS Arr 2400 Lv 0230 little late for San Antonio passengers.
ELP 1330 good time
Tucccson 1900
Maricopa 2013
LAX 0400 Coast starlight connections and first trips to San Diego and Santa Barbarab
East bound
Lax 2340 Connects from Starlight and late evening San Diego
Maricopa 0813
Tucson 1000
ELP 2300 Not too bad
SAS 1230 PM
FTW 2000 misses Heartland?
St. Louis 1230 PM
CHI 1730 Connects to Capitol and Lakeshore Michigan??
As said before is all speculation and proposed schedule would be helpful
SUNSET
Depart SAS 1300
Houston 1600
NOL 0100 Can make Crescent connection
WB
NOL 1000
HOU 2000
SAS 2300
Sam1 Your are right! Showing #21 and #421 as if they are separate trains is confusing. Moreover, I cannot think of any accounting reason for doing so.
Your are right! Showing #21 and #421 as if they are separate trains is confusing. Moreover, I cannot think of any accounting reason for doing so.
Guess what!!!! : for seats on the Empire Builder east of Spokane the Amtrak web site does the same thing listing different prices for 7/27 or 8/28 . This is really confusing for passengers and needs to be brought to Amtrak's attention.
Edit: Also checked the Lake Shore west of Albany and the same thing for it also. I do not remember this occurring in the distance past can anyone dispute this???
daxomniAmtrak's website even claims that the $154 price is the "shortest trip" despite the fact that you're arriving on the very same train. It's just needlessly confusing for people who aren't familiar with the system. It's reasonable for Amtrak to engage in some form of automated yield management, but there is no reason for needless end-user confusion like this. Give the train a single name, let the customer pick the lowest price or whatever fare bucket nets a frequent rider the best reward ratio and be done with it. As for me, I'll happily pay the Sunset Limited price (including sleeper upgrade) but I would think twice about the Texas Eagle rate if that becomes the new standard rate, if and when the service schedule is modified. At that point it's no longer competitive with nonstop airfare that takes far less time to make the same trip multiple times each and every single day.
Amtrak's website even claims that the $154 price is the "shortest trip" despite the fact that you're arriving on the very same train. It's just needlessly confusing for people who aren't familiar with the system. It's reasonable for Amtrak to engage in some form of automated yield management, but there is no reason for needless end-user confusion like this. Give the train a single name, let the customer pick the lowest price or whatever fare bucket nets a frequent rider the best reward ratio and be done with it. As for me, I'll happily pay the Sunset Limited price (including sleeper upgrade) but I would think twice about the Texas Eagle rate if that becomes the new standard rate, if and when the service schedule is modified. At that point it's no longer competitive with nonstop airfare that takes far less time to make the same trip multiple times each and every single day.
All up Amtrak has a friendly web page. It is as good as any airline web page that I have used.
BlakeTynerWith Arrow's limitations, that's the only way Amtrak can run through cars, and since the website interfaces with Arrow, what you see is basically what you get. The way everything is set up, all the way down until you get to the website interface, is good; offering same-seat California service on the Eagle is an attractive option, and as I explained earlier, to take advantage of the revenue potential, the fare structure is usually tweaked to discourage local travel on 421 (hence the difference in price in your example.)
There may be a more fundamental reason for this doubling of reservation listing. Amtrak is required to separate each train out for riders, revenue, and costs of each train. These stats are always listed on the monthly reports for each train There has never been an explanation of how the passenger/revenues of the combined Eagle/Sunset is broken out for each train. Operating costs can be allocated for each train based on the number of cars each train provides. There is no combined train or ridership figures listed for the train west of SAS.
Maybe to get more passengers and revenue shown for the Sunset the lower fare is listed on the Arrow system for that train. So if you book that train the revenue/pass are allocated to that train. But if so why not list the Sunset train and fares first? We do not know the O and D pairing that are on the Sunset from east of San Antonia to west however Sam1 hinted that the Sunset cars were fairly empty west of Tucson. Sam is that your observation?
How the revision of the trains come about will greatly affect how the revenues and passengers will be counted in the future.
1. Daily Eagle trains to LAX will increase ridership and if daily ridership stays same the SAS - LAX riders will increase 7 thirds for that segment all other things being equal.
2. If Sunset becomes a daily thru train and equipment then there will be no appreciable change in revenue/pass ratios .
3. If Sunset originates and terminates SAS daily then ridership on Eagle will increase just from that revision 7/3.
4. If Sunset stays tri-weekly O&D SAS then another ridership figure is possible.
5. A change in schedule(s) will complicate these possibilities even more.
6. The STL/LRK/DFW/AUS --- PHX/Tuscon market appears to have much more potential than the NOL/Houston --- PHX/TUS market. Left LAX out but Sam1 can give us a better idea of that market from her rider experiences. Yuma and the stations in California just short of LAX may be an important market since the SW Chief does not stop at those stations
With Arrow's limitations, that's the only way Amtrak can run through cars, and since the website interfaces with Arrow, what you see is basically what you get. The way everything is set up, all the way down until you get to the website interface, is good; offering same-seat California service on the Eagle is an attractive option, and as I explained earlier, to take advantage of the revenue potential, the fare structure is usually tweaked to discourage local travel on 421 (hence the difference in price in your example.)
What is the solution, short of Amtrak developing a new reservations system?
Would it make sense to attach a note to the 421/422 Texas Eagle train name that explains that that section is physically attached to the Sunset? If so, then we need to get in touch with Amtrak's customer relations department and make the case. If there's a better idea (that would work with the limitations of Arrow) then let's put the bug in Amtrak's ear.
Regarding the pricing after the Sunset/Eagle merger--
Once that happens, you lose the problem with Arrow having to keep 2 'trains'. Essentially, what you have is the Texas Eagle that goes daily from Chicago to L.A., all as train 21. The prices you'd see on a local trip would be very near the prices you see on the present Sunset Limited. I say very near because if Amtrak's ridership projection of 100k passengers gained happens, demand would dictate a higher fare.
The other thing to keep in mind when doing test bookings is that the prices are not static; as the passenger load of the train increases, the ticket buckets move upward. Likewise, if there are cancellations, the bucket might come down. That's all automated. However, the revenue management team (whether local, like on the Eagle, or the national team in D.C. for every other train) can tweak fare prices at will. It's a behind-the-scenes process, but it happens almost 24 hours a day--up to and including after the train has already left its original terminal.
I checked on fares for two trips on #21 and #421 on June 18th. The first trip was from Dallas to El Paso. The fares for #21 and #1 as well as #421 are the same ($111.00 in coach). On the same date the fare from San Antonio to El Paso on #1 is $79 whilst the fare on #421 is $154. The cost of a roomette is the same for either booking ($223). Of course, one day a trend does not make.
Ahhh, I gotcha. Yes, we agree on that. Functionally, Arrow (the reservation system) is just way, way out of date--kind of like the Space Shuttle using pre-Pentium processors. The whole "train 21" and "train 421" nomenclature in and of itself is a compromise because the system has no way of recognizing through cars; the only thing it knows is two 'trains' with an identical schedule.
I think we all understand this better than the average American, but this is what you get when you starve the railroad of the funds to operate at a logical level. This isn't meant to trash Amtrak--I honestly think they do the best they can with what they have (most of the time) but more as a criticism to the politicians and, to some degree, the public, for just not being in tune. Things do seem to be changing now, which is good.
It's just a matter of prioritizing. The 80's and 90's were a time of real uncertainty among Amtrak employees as to whether they'd even have a job the next year. Now, Amtrak is pretty well-established and those worries are beginning to ease. They focused first on getting rid of a lot of surly on-board staff, and now they're doing their best to rebrand the company on its own terms, rather than allowing the critics to do the defining. It's a good start. But I 100% agree with you that to really maximize potential, a lot of these little things will need to be fixed. Soon, I hope.
Thank you for the clarification, and I apologize if I came off snarky before--I misread you, and that was my mistake.
I guess I didn't explain it well. You do not depend on the customer to search for the the less expensive seat in the "short" cars of #421 instead of "long" cars of #21, or inadvertently reserve space on #21 instead of #421. The customer says he wants a short trip between two points. The computer should put that person in the short car if space is available or to fill out the long cars as the date of departure looms. This would be on a sliding scale based on historic last-minute long reservation demand.
I am not arguing against your logic; only against the obscure reservation process. One might argue that the unintended result is unwary travelers pay more than necessary if the train rarely runs near capacity.
HarveyK400That is the most obtuse reservation system I've heard of! You have to have inside knowledge to get a deal? Why not let the computer handle seat availability and car assignment between point A and Point B at the best price for the customer?
It's only obtuse if you're wanting to minimize revenue.
Lookit--it costs $26 for me to take the train from Marshall, TX to Dallas, TX. Let's say Amtrak sells all 74 coach seats in the 421 car (which is bound for Los Angeles) to people like me, for $26 each. That's $1,924 in revenue. We have now sold out the L.A. section. Tomorrow, someone from Chicago calls Amtrak and wants to book a trip from CHI to L.A. That fare is $230 each; selling out the 421 coach from CHI to LAX yields revenue of $17,020. But because the coach is sold out due to people like me occupying it for that short distance, Amtrak just lost a little over $15,000.
Arranging the fare structure this way maximizes revenue potential. If, near the time of departure, the 421 cars are not booked for long distance, then yes...you can buy local tickets at a comparable price to 21.
BlakeTyner That is purposeful. The idea is to discourage the use of 421/422 for "local" travel and keep those two cars dedicated to passengers going to Los Angeles. It's the same north of San Antonio--on days when the through cars run, prices tend to be lower on trains 21/22 and higher on 421/422.
That is purposeful. The idea is to discourage the use of 421/422 for "local" travel and keep those two cars dedicated to passengers going to Los Angeles. It's the same north of San Antonio--on days when the through cars run, prices tend to be lower on trains 21/22 and higher on 421/422.
That is the most obtuse reservation system I've heard of! You have to have inside knowledge to get a deal? Why not let the computer handle seat availability and car assignment between point A and Point B at the best price for the customer?
I can't always buy my tickets ahead of time, let alone six to nine months before I leave. Sometimes I know I can leave a month before, sometimes it's much less. Sometimes I'm buying tickets barely a few hours before I leave. But that's not actually the problem. The problem is that Amtrak charges me different rates for the same train based on which fancy name I purchased them under. I don't really care which name is on my ticket or which specific car I'm located in. Do most travelers? All I know is that I never buy "Texas Eagle" tickets from San Antonio to El Paso because they always cost more. They can cost as much as two or even three times as much as "Sunset Limited" tickets for the exact same train arriving at the exact same time. There's no tangible benefit, so why do it? I want to support our train systems, no doubt, but not if they're going to cost substantially more than any other form of transport at the slowest of all speeds.
I also have an update of sorts for those who are still following this topic. According to the longtime station employee I spoke with Amtrak is indeed looking to increase the Texas Eagle to daily operation between San Antonio and LA. When I asked him how confident he was that this would actually happen he said he thought it was just a matter of time. However he did concede that political considerations outside of his area of expertise could still prevent it. He also clarified that the current understanding among employees is that there will also be an attempt to create a daily link between New Orleans and San Antonio, although he seemed somewhat less confident that this plan would actually be put into practice based on available equipment. As for the Sunset Limited ever reaching Florida again, it seems extremely unlikely at this point. If anything it sounds as though Amtrak considers the interruption a blessing and won't attempt to reestablish service. However, in order to keep their access as a future bargaining chip they will continue to define everything east of New Orleans as temporarily offline. I was just stopping by to pick up some tickets and I didn't really dig too deep. However, if anyone has any specific questions they'd like to ask the next time I'm in the area just let me know.
Here's a couple photos I took while I was at the station.
I don't know much about photographing trains, especially at night, but I figured I'd give it a shot. I have a couple others if anyone likes what they see.
-Dax
conrailman Its cheaper to buy your tickets ahead like 6 to 9 months to get the cheaper prices, then buy them say 1 or 2 months.
Its cheaper to buy your tickets ahead like 6 to 9 months to get the cheaper prices, then buy them say 1 or 2 months.
Not always! On more than one occasion I have booked a coach seat from Taylor to Fort Worth or Dallas on the Texas Eagle and then been able to upgrade to a seat in a roomette the day before or the day of travel for half the price shown on the day that I booked the coach seat. This strategy does not work during the holidays or heavy travel periods, but it works like a charm during the off-peak season. Moreover, I have nothing to lose. If I cannot get the roomette seat at a good price ($44.00), I still have the coach seat.
I like the idea of having daily service between San Antonio and El Paso. However, when I’m purchasing tickets I’ve noticed that the rates for the Texas Eagle are almost always higher than for the Sunset Limited, even though they’re functionally the same train during this stretch. The difference in price can be extreme, with the Texas Eagle running up to 2-3x the rate of the Sunset Limited.
Why is that?
Does removing the Sunset name mean I can expect all my future fares to increase in cost with no additional benefit for the extra expense beyond daily service?
If so, this is likely to reduce my travel on Amtrak rather than increase it.
Two more Amtrak openings for engineers posted on Amtrak web site in San Antonio on Apr 27th.
I was in Alpine, Texas last week for some cycling. I go there two or three times a year. It is one of the most beautiful areas that I have ever seen, and it is great for cycling, i.e. relatively light traffic and wide shoulders.
As chance would have it, I happened to drift by the Alpine Station every day, a few minutes before the Sunset Limited was due to call at Alpine. Ok, I didn't just drift by, I was there by design.
Interestingly, every train was met by U.S. Border Patrol agents and Alpine Police officers. They went through the train looking for illegal immigrants and drug smugglers. On one occasion they pulled two guys off the train and went through their luggage. They must have found something because they put them in the back of the police car and whisked them away.
If the Sunset becomes a daily operation, it looks like the Alpine police and U.S. Border Patrol will be a tad busier.
I have changed the title of this thread because:
1. A source in Texas informs me that Amtrak has hired almost all operating crews needed for running a daily operation San Antionia - LAX.
2. The assistant conductors being hired will probably replace some existing assistant conductors that will be upgrading to conductor.
3. Source of additional engineers has not been specified.
4. UP headquarters has not put anything out to the troops about the possible daily operation.
5. Any further info anyone has can be sent to me confidentiality.
Edit: There is still no hiring NOL - SAS which may indicate Amtrak's inability to yet guarantee train sets for a daily operation. 3 times a week might mean only one train set needed to start out with a schedule of only 15 hours between SAS and NOL.
blue streak 1 Additional information: Amtrak has now advertised openings for 2 engineers each for San Antonia and El Paso. there is also openings for 4 more in LAX however that cannot be fully considered because of all the other routes out of LAX. Part of this information needs information as to how the present sunset engineers cover the route. Anyone knows how this route is covered? Note: No openings SAS - NOL have been posted. Maybe this means the Eagle will go daily CHI - LAX and SAS - NOL will stay tri - weekly? Also there were openings posted for several stations west of SAS for ticket agents however I have no details of which stations except El Paso..
Additional information: Amtrak has now advertised openings for 2 engineers each for San Antonia and El Paso. there is also openings for 4 more in LAX however that cannot be fully considered because of all the other routes out of LAX. Part of this information needs information as to how the present sunset engineers cover the route. Anyone knows how this route is covered?
Note: No openings SAS - NOL have been posted. Maybe this means the Eagle will go daily CHI - LAX and SAS - NOL will stay tri - weekly?
Also there were openings posted for several stations west of SAS for ticket agents however I have no details of which stations except El Paso..
As of Apr 20 Amtrak has now listed openings for 2 assistant conductors each for San Antonia and El Paso. Also 5 additional assistant conductors for LAX however do not know if any may go to the Sunset/ Eagle. Metrolink may need some as well.
Still no openings for the SAS - NOL segment listed. Wonder if it is going to stay tri-weekly?
.
blue streak 1 More information.: Use the following link and then select "Amtrak long distance trains running strong" On about the third page you will find Boardman's statement that the Eagle will be extended daily to LAX and a connection will be made SAS - NOL (daily ?). Boardman said decision will be final later this year. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241267278292 Guess I will have to put this possibility at above 75% to happen!
More information.: Use the following link and then select "Amtrak long distance trains running strong" On about the third page you will find Boardman's statement that the Eagle will be extended daily to LAX and a connection will be made SAS - NOL (daily ?). Boardman said decision will be final later this year.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241267278292
Guess I will have to put this possibility at above 75% to happen!
I hope so! I take the Texas Eagle from Austin to California once or twice a year. In addition, I go to El Paso a couple of times a year. I usually fly to El Paso, but I take the train home. The long layover in San Antonio, especially coming home, when I am only 90 miles from Austin, is a bummer.
blue streak 1HarveyK400 The former ACL Amtrak station and platform was across the yard and shop area from the separate Auto Train station and platform. You'd think station staff would split their work between the two as necessary. The ACL station was destroyed by the hurricane that came thru there 3 or 4 years ago. Station is completely unusable. Do not know if it has been torn down yet as there were some kind of issues about restoration.
HarveyK400 The former ACL Amtrak station and platform was across the yard and shop area from the separate Auto Train station and platform. You'd think station staff would split their work between the two as necessary.
The former ACL Amtrak station and platform was across the yard and shop area from the separate Auto Train station and platform. You'd think station staff would split their work between the two as necessary.
The ACL station was destroyed by the hurricane that came thru there 3 or 4 years ago. Station is completely unusable. Do not know if it has been torn down yet as there were some kind of issues about restoration.
That might have something to do with Sanford being no longer an Amtrak stop. Now the ACL station is an historical ruin and can't be replaced?
oltmanndDeggestyIncidentally, since I had not planned (nor taken) a trip south of Jacksonville since 1989, I was unaware that Sanford was no longer a stop for the Silver Meteor and the Silver Star. I do not recall seeing anything about this.I think they opened a new Kissimmee station and stopped stopping at the AutoTrain station in Sanford.
DeggestyIncidentally, since I had not planned (nor taken) a trip south of Jacksonville since 1989, I was unaware that Sanford was no longer a stop for the Silver Meteor and the Silver Star. I do not recall seeing anything about this.
Sanford is about midway between Orlando and Deland while Winter Park is only six miles out. Makes me wonder.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd Amtrak studied it. Here's the report: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am/Layout&cid=1241245669222
Don, thanks for that link. Once you find the report concerning the Gulf Coast service, you can see why the service will probably never be restored.
Incidentally, since I had not planned (nor taken) a trip south of Jacksonville since 1989, I was unaware that Sanford was no longer a stop for the Silver Meteor and the Silver Star. I do not recall seeing anything about this.
Johnny
oltmanndwholemanI am just curious, but what about the continuation of going east of New Orleans to Orlando. Has there been any update on that?Yes. Amtrak studied it. Here's the report: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am/Layout&cid=1241245669222 The best scenario provides only a 56% farebox recovery ratio, which is lousy, even for Amtrak. Basically, Amtrak will provide service when funding is made available. I think it's doubtful AL, MS and FL will come up with any money for this train, nor will Congress.
wholemanI am just curious, but what about the continuation of going east of New Orleans to Orlando. Has there been any update on that?
The best scenario provides only a 56% farebox recovery ratio, which is lousy, even for Amtrak.
Basically, Amtrak will provide service when funding is made available. I think it's doubtful AL, MS and FL will come up with any money for this train, nor will Congress.
Doubtful yes since Federal funding for Amtrak for this route would increase justifiably criticism of costs and unjustifiably of Amtrak as a whole. Politically, a whole bunch of states would need to band together for expansion of the national system with their local favorites - the (Gulf Coast) Sunset, Pioneer, North Coast Hiawatha, a one-night Chicago - Florida train, a second New York - Chicago train, and New York - Cincinnati - Nashville; and this would only multiply the additional deficit.
In the cases of the Sunset, Chicago - Florida, and New York - Nashville, additional regional daytime and corridor trains sharing parts of the route would spread fixed costs for infrastructure (stations, sidings and multiple main tracks, and PTC). These may be more doable if the states commit to supplemental corridor services.
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