Trains.com

Central Japan Railway to bid on Florida Bullet Train

4491 views
15 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    October 2006
  • 1,123 posts
Posted by HarveyK400 on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:46 PM

You have the advantage of access to these proposals and contacts that I don't. I was impressed with the planning and thought that went into the original Tokyo-Osaka Bullet Train and the TGV-Est decisions to build as they did.  Much of the planning revolved around integration with existing systems; so it's hard to imagine that they failed to notice the absence of same in the US.  Both, and now others, have had to deal with their own socio-political issues and opposition.  Presenting a generic (universal?) vision of HSR without addressing local issues that will define solutions for implementation is an appalling disservice that opens the concept to valid criticisms at the git-go.  If you're an example, the egoism didn't go down well either.

Still, there is no concrete national HSR or mainline electrification plan to begin to figure out whether domestic suppliers would be viable business ventures.  Whether California is big enough to attract manufacturing capability on its own or with more state compacts can be debated.  Talgo already has a foot in the door with the Cascades and Wisconsin; and so do other foreign builders and suppliers.  I can only wonder how "Buy American" was parsed to not conflict with "Free Trade" agreements or vice versa. 

Railway Man

What aspects of these projects do you propose to be not local and not universal?  Stated another way, what is it you see they offer that is special?  Because, frankly, I read their proposals and saw nothing other than an unsubstantiated claim to European or Asian exceptionalism.  Their management teams I thought actually were quite weak even for a home project.

RWM

 


  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:57 PM

Well, you of course, are technically expert and you have access to their proposals.  You may well be right.  However, the fact remains that NO US concern has any experience in HSR whatsoever, and that may well be a handicap.  Time will tell. 

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    November 2007
  • 2,989 posts
Posted by Railway Man on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:23 PM

What aspects of these projects do you propose to be not local and not universal?  Stated another way, what is it you see they offer that is special?  Because, frankly, I read their proposals and saw nothing other than an unsubstantiated claim to European or Asian exceptionalism.  Their management teams I thought actually were quite weak even for a home project.

RWM

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:14 PM

Railway Man
They really have little to offer.

 

Wait and see.  I suspect their US subsidiaries can/will hire local people for the local aspect.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    November 2007
  • 2,989 posts
Posted by Railway Man on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 2:22 PM

schlimm

 All these points make sense, especially the social/local ones.  I don't doubt that US engineering can construct HSR lines and build equipment.  However, given that Europe and Japan have 30+ years experience in this and the US has zero, it is not arrogance on the part of CJR, Siemens Alstom, Bombardier, etc. to make HSR proposals, but doing business to make money.

No sir.  The "experience" that CJR, SNCF, etc., have in this field is local and pertains to the social enviroment of the countries in which they do business. It is not technical experience.  Technical know-how in railroading is fungible and leaks across national borders faster than I can type this post.  In other words, they have loads of experience in how to do this in Japan, France, etc., but hey have zero experience in how to do it in the U.S.  In fact, they are handicapped in the U.S. by their lack of local knowledge, lack of local partners, and assumption that their methods that have been hybridized to local soil can be transplanted into foreign soil.  Moreover, much of the technology they propose is inapplicable to U.S. conditions, laws, and needs! 

The arrogance part is that they presumed that the U.S. would want to beat a path to their door.  They really have little to offer.

RWM

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:09 PM

 All these points make sense, especially the social/local ones.  I don't doubt that US engineering can construct HSR lines and build equipment.  However, given that Europe and Japan have 30+ years experience in this and the US has zero, it is not arrogance on the part of CJR, Siemens Alstom, Bombardier, etc. to make HSR proposals, but doing business to make money.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Southwest US
  • 12,914 posts
Posted by tomikawaTT on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:29 PM

I agree that the US has the technical expertise to design and build HSR infrastructure.

What SNCF and CJR haven't recognized is the near-total lack of logical local transportation in US cities.  HSR cannot exist in a vacuum, or it will be just like airline service to the inner cities rather than the outskirts.

Also, they haven't got a clue about the sociopolitical realities of trying to build anything more noticeable than a doghouse in the US, where one loud nit with a checkbook and/or an agenda can hold up progress for years.

I wish them well.  I just don't expect much.

Chuck

  • Member since
    November 2007
  • 2,989 posts
Posted by Railway Man on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:35 AM

I'm not referring to any particular state project, only to the SNCF and CJR proposals, which while customized for specific audiences when they are presented, are actually generic proposals meant to serve any project.

Their flaw is that they envision that what the U.S. lacks are adequate technical solutions.  What the U.S. lacks are funding, legal, political, social, and environmental solutions.  Technical problems are trivial compared to those.  The notion that only their organizations have the prowess to deliver a technical solution -- that the U.S. cannot generate its own -- is breathtaking in its arrogance and ignorant of the political reality.  The thought that the U.S., during the Great Recession, would write a big check to a foreign company to import its staff to design and manage a project, is ... well ... fantastic.

The technical aspects to high-speed rail aren't complicated.

RWM

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • 1,123 posts
Posted by HarveyK400 on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:34 AM

 My bad. CJR, not JNR.

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • 1,123 posts
Posted by HarveyK400 on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:33 AM

I'm not clear whether you were referring to California or Florida.  While I have come to highly respect your knowledge-based comments; JNR and SNCF may see realistic opportunities to take the time to get involved if not simply for the crass motive to keep their planning teams together through consultancy.  Like you, I've seen too much starry-eyed advocacy that ignores the critical infrastructure around successful HSR that is, for the most part, lacking here.

Railway Man

An arguably even more tone-deaf and preposterous proposal than the SNCF proposal.

RWM

 
  • Member since
    November 2007
  • 2,989 posts
Posted by Railway Man on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:14 AM
I don't know which came first -- it's a chicken or egg dilemma.
  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:01 AM
Railway Man

An arguably even more tone-deaf and preposterous proposal than the SNCF proposal.

RWM

Is it more from ignorance or arrogance or both?

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    November 2007
  • 2,989 posts
Posted by Railway Man on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:20 AM

An arguably even more tone-deaf and preposterous proposal than the SNCF proposal.

RWM

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • 1,123 posts
Posted by HarveyK400 on Monday, January 25, 2010 4:31 PM

The way I see it, the desire for a dog-leg to Riverside-San Bernardino would facilitate a Las Vegas spur running through to San Diego. 

The Las Vegas spur through Riverside-San Bernardino would allow a more direct LA-SF route up the I-5 Corridor to Bakersfield, trading Tehachapi for Tejon.

tomikawaTT

Interesting, but don't hold your breath.  The entire HSR thing has been way overblown, and I have yet to see or hear anything that would tempt me to leave my personal wheels parked at home.

Unlike most of the US, Japan's cities have highly-developed local rapid transit systems that can be understood by visitors.  I still haven't deciphered the Las Vegas bus system, and I've lived here for five years now.  (Don't ask me about the monorail - which just filed for bankruptcy...)  Absent that, HSR is just like the airlines for convenience, and will probably have the same draconian 'security' if the paranoids have their way.

Speaking of my home town, I notice that the, "Los Angeles - Las Vegas route," was mentioned.  As it stands now, it's more like, "Park-and ride in the desert at the top of Cajon Pass - Las Vegas."  Just getting down Cajon and into the Los Angeles basin would probably cost more than everything to the north and east.  Even the local media people see it as a sick joke.

I am a great fan of the Japanese rail system, and have ridden the Shinkansen.  I just don't see it translating very well to American English.

Chuck

 
  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Southwest US
  • 12,914 posts
Posted by tomikawaTT on Monday, January 25, 2010 3:10 PM

Interesting, but don't hold your breath.  The entire HSR thing has been way overblown, and I have yet to see or hear anything that would tempt me to leave my personal wheels parked at home.

Unlike most of the US, Japan's cities have highly-developed local rapid transit systems that can be understood by visitors.  I still haven't deciphered the Las Vegas bus system, and I've lived here for five years now.  (Don't ask me about the monorail - which just filed for bankruptcy...)  Absent that, HSR is just like the airlines for convenience, and will probably have the same draconian 'security' if the paranoids have their way.

Speaking of my home town, I notice that the, "Los Angeles - Las Vegas route," was mentioned.  As it stands now, it's more like, "Park-and ride in the desert at the top of Cajon Pass - Las Vegas."  Just getting down Cajon and into the Los Angeles basin would probably cost more than everything to the north and east.  Even the local media people see it as a sick joke.

I am a great fan of the Japanese rail system, and have ridden the Shinkansen.  I just don't see it translating very well to American English.

Chuck

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Burbank Junction
  • 195 posts
Central Japan Railway to bid on Florida Bullet Train
Posted by karldotcom on Monday, January 25, 2010 12:44 PM

My train videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/karldotcom

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy