here is a link to the story.
http://www.tribdem.com/local/local_story_294000443.html
I think it could work and would offer a lot more convince to a lot of people. Depending on how far apart the schedules are it could give passengers more options on how they plan their trips instead of worrying about a train schedule. You could have morning and afternoon departures from both Pittsburgh and NYC.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BT CPSO 266 here is a link to the story. http://www.tribdem.com/local/local_story_294000443.html I think it could work and would offer a lot more convince to a lot of people. Depending on how far apart the schedules are it could give passengers more options on how they plan their trips instead of worrying about a train schedule. You could have morning and afternoon departures from both Pittsburgh and NYC.
That just a Study for the Pittsburgh train now. a few days ago on newswire on trains.
You'd think another train would draw but part of the problem is the rail travel time between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg--too slow. And Johnstown and Altoona are way down in population compared to 40 years ago. Unfortunately, the one PA metropolitan area which could provide a significant amount of trafic flow between the two and on to Philly and NYC, especially on Thursdays, Fridays and Sundays, is State College and its about 30 miles in both directions from Lewistown or Tyrone stations with no connecting transport to either. Not having connecting service to Baltimore and DC out of Harrisburg anymore also hurts although having connecting bus and train operating out of the Harrisburg station can diminish much of that problem.
alphasproblem is the rail travel time between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg--too slow.
Pittsburgh (Amtrak station) to Harrisburg (Amtrak station) via Amtrak 5 hrs. 25 min.
" " " " highway 3 hrs. 15 min.
Given the distance (205 miles), it easy to see why ridership is low. Average speeds need to be improved before the public will take a train. That doesn't need to be HSR, just an 70-80 mph average.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmalphasproblem is the rail travel time between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg--too slow. Pittsburgh (Amtrak station) to Harrisburg (Amtrak station) via Amtrak 5 hrs. 25 min. " " " " highway 3 hrs. 15 min.Given the distance (205 miles), it easy to see why ridership is low. Average speeds need to be improved before the public will take a train. That doesn't need to be HSR, just an 70-80 mph average.
I thought the Pennsylvanian already could go those speeds. I quest the problem is so may freight trains on the route. What they need to do is increase capacity.
oltmanndThere is some nice running between Harrisburg and Huntingdon and Johnstown and Pittsburgh, but there's a whole lot of really slow in between. Getting avg speed up to even 60 mph would take some doing. In the long run, it might be better to build new HSR ROW from Lewistown to Pittsburgh via State College.
Wouldn't the route go to far north. That would increase the time between Pittsburgh and NYC. They would probably build a more straight shoot route between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.
The Pennsylvania Feasibility Studies Report dated October 16, 2009, contains Study C, Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. It addresses the issues of adding another train between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, as well as a train between Harrisburg and Altoona. The key findings are discussed below.
The Norfolk Southern line from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, which carries the Pennsylvanian, is mostly double track, with three tracks in the mountainous portions west of Altoona. An average of 39.8 freight trains, totaling 106 annual million gross tons, run daily between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh. The authors of the study believe that additional passenger trains would increase the operating challenges for the NS, but they could be handled.
Ridership on the Pennsylvania increased from approximately 184,000 in 2006 to 201,000 in 2008, which was a gain of 9.2 per cent. On time performance improved from 71 per cent in 2006 to 87 per cent in 2008. Ridership through July 2009 fell approximately 2.6 per cent, with ridership east of Harrisburg declining more so due to improved Keystone service.
The Pennsylvanian requires 5 hours and 30 minutes to run from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. A coach ticket costs $36, on average, whilst a business class seat goes for $53. The travel time between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh by car, which is the major competitive mode of travel between the two cities, as well as most cities along the line, via the Pennsylvania Turnpike, takes approximately 3 hours and 30 minutes. The tolls are $13.45; the total cost would be a function of the type of vehicle and how it is operated.
The study examined several scenarios for improved service. The first envisions extending Keystone train 647, with a New York departure of 2:11 p.m. and a Pittsburgh arrival of 11:09 p.m. Its eastbound counterpart would leave Pittsburgh at 1:00 p.m. and arrive in New York at 10:30 p.m. It would replace Keystone train 618. A second scenario considers a Harrisburg to Altoona train, thereby offering eastbound passengers morning arrivals in Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and New York, although it would have to leave Altoona pretty early to get to New York by 11:59 a.m. This scenario would result in three trains a day between Altoona and New York, with two of them running between Pittsburgh and New York.
Incremental ridership projections are 144,400 for the first scenario, plus 36,000 for the second scenario, for a total increase of 180,400. Incremental ticket revenues are projected to be $6.7 million for the first scenario, plus $1.2 million for the second, bringing the total incremental revenue to $7.9 million. The Altoona service includes a Thruway bus to State College, which is the home of Pennsylvania State University. It would generate $56,000 and 6,000 riders. The figures are annual estimates.
The estimated operating costs for both services would be $16.7 million, thereby resulting in an operating loss of approximately $8.8 million, although the study shows the loss at $8.7 million, due to a rounding error. Another $1.5 million would be required for start-up training. The equipment capital costs are estimated to be $88 million for a second Pennsylvanian and $40 million for the Altoona service. In addition, the Norfolk Southern would need to make capital improvements, according to a 2005 study that it had performed, to handle additional passenger trains. The study estimated that the capital improvements would cost $120 million, but its numbers were based on four passenger trains as well as increased freight traffic. This study would have to be updated.
Implementation of the enhancements discussed in the study would require the support of the Pennsylvania legislature, which would have to fund in whole or part the incremental services. Given the budgetary constraints faced by Pennsylvania, the legislature is unlikely to provide the monies to enhance passenger train service between Harrisburg, Altoona, and Pittsburgh. Amtrak cannot go it alone.
As an aside, the authors of the study recommended that PDOT consider Thruway bus service between Harrisburg and State College, as well as Altoona and State College, ala the services in California.
Amtrak should put 2 coaches and 1 sleeping car on Amtrak 42 &43 onto the Capitol Limited at Pittsburgh, that would be a great services to have sleeping car service to Philly and NY again.
Everyone:
The problem with the PA scenario that Sam1 talks about is that the local bus company runs a bunch of direct service buses out of State College on Thursdays, Fridays, and Sundays, plus a bunch of inbounds on Fridays and Sundays during the two Fall and the Winter/Spring semesters. These are heavily (and almost totally) used by students. They are non-stop to King of Prussia, then on to Philly, non-stop to Baltimore (via I-83), then on to DC, and non-stop to Monroeville, then on to Pittsburgh. There is also daily non-stop service from State College to NYC by a Chinese bus company via I-80 which only takes 4 and 1/2 hours or even less if the traffic into NYC is light. The prices charged are less than even subsidized Amtrak service can compete with and no way can Amtrak currently compete with the time schedules. Plus the bus stops at King of Prussia and Monroeville are extremely popular and can't be matched by Amtrak. The one area where a train/bus connection can play a role is at Harrisburg where the Keystone trains servicing Lancaster and all the other towns along the Harrisburg to Philly route can generate passengers since the buses and Amtrak share the Harrisburg station. I believe, but am not totally sure, that there is one non-stop bus out of State College to Harrisburg on Friday afternoon and one non-stop bus from Harrisburg to State College on Sunday evening that does just that already. (The normal bus service is several locals a day each way between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, via State College and Altoona, and serving all stops in between the terminals.)
One of the problems which no one has mentioned so far is that the highway distance between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh is 30 miles or so shorter than the rail service plus all the rail speed restrictions due to the Horseshoe Curve and the mountain running in general. And rail is competing with the 65 mph PA Turnpike.
Finally, as I have posted several times over the last 3 years, the original PA high speed rail commission "way back when" said that any right of way should go through State College. However, it recommended against building it since the Pittsburgh end was judged too small in population anymore to justify any hope that "true" high speed rail could come anywhere close to at least breaking even on operating expenses. (Plus every state legislator wanted it to stop in her/his district so it wouldn't be high speed.) The now deceased first chairman unofficially and years ago told me the only way he saw "true" east-west high speed rail maybe having a chance was to have frequent service start in NYC , then on to Philly with only a stop in Newark, then on to Pittsburgh with stops in Harrisburg and State College (probably only some of the trains would stop in State College), then on to Indianapolis via Columbus and Dayton, and then on to Chicago--with maybe a line added later to St. Louis from Indianapolis and a line from Harrisburg to Baltimore and DC. Sound familar? Its basically the old PRR without the Pittsburg to Chicago direct route and with the bottlenecks removed such as the entrances into 30th St and Baltimore stations from the west. He thought it might work if the trains could average around 180-200 mph traveling between the cities and avoiding other "political" stops. However, you have to keep in mind that his discussion with me took place before the rise of the "discount' airlines and their effect on air travel and air fares.
Sounds like an impossible route to make any speed with all the mountain ridges between Harrisbug and State College.
Schlimm,
It would be VERY expensive. However, If you are going to have "true" high speed rail between the NYC and midwest area, its a problem that would have to be faced one way or another no matter what route would be taken. One other thing that was mentioned to me by the former chairman was a direct route out of NYC to Chicago basically following I-80 west through PA with stops in NE Ohio and NW Ohio. But he told me that would be even more expensive and the 2 Ohio stops would not generate anywhere near as much revenue as you would have from the Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Dayton, and Indianapolis (and eventually Baltimore, DC, and St. Louis) traffic.
In summary, given what he told me then and the growth of the US budget deficit now, "true" high-speed rail from the northern east coast to the midwest isn't going to happen for many, many years-- and probably never unless there's some great break through in both technology and construction.
alphas Everyone: The problem with the PA scenario that Sam1 talks about is that the local bus company runs a bunch of direct service buses out of State College on Thursdays, Fridays, and Sundays, plus a bunch of inbounds on Fridays and Sundays during the two Fall and the Winter/Spring semesters. These are heavily (and almost totally) used by students. They are non-stop to King of Prussia, then on to Philly, non-stop to Baltimore (via I-83), then on to DC, and non-stop to Monroeville, then on to Pittsburgh. There is also daily non-stop service from State College to NYC by a Chinese bus company via I-80 which only takes 4 and 1/2 hours or even less if the traffic into NYC is light. The prices charged are less than even subsidized Amtrak service can compete with and no way can Amtrak currently compete with the time schedules. Plus the bus stops at King of Prussia and Monroeville are extremely popular and can't be matched by Amtrak. The one area where a train/bus connection can play a role is at Harrisburg where the Keystone trains servicing Lancaster and all the other towns along the Harrisburg to Philly route can generate passengers since the buses and Amtrak share the Harrisburg station. I believe, but am not totally sure, that there is one non-stop bus out of State College to Harrisburg on Friday afternoon and one non-stop bus from Harrisburg to State College on Sunday evening that does just that already. (The normal bus service is several locals a day each way between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, via State College and Altoona, and serving all stops in between the terminals.) One of the problems which no one has mentioned so far is that the highway distance between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh is 30 miles or so shorter than the rail service plus all the rail speed restrictions due to the Horseshoe Curve and the mountain running in general. And rail is competing with the 65 mph PA Turnpike. Finally, as I have posted several times over the last 3 years, the original PA high speed rail commission "way back when" said that any right of way should go through State College. However, it recommended against building it since the Pittsburgh end was judged too small in population anymore to justify any hope that "true" high speed rail could come anywhere close to at least breaking even on operating expenses. (Plus every state legislator wanted it to stop in her/his district so it wouldn't be high speed.) The now deceased first chairman unofficially and years ago told me the only way he saw "true" east-west high speed rail maybe having a chance was to have frequent service start in NYC , then on to Philly with only a stop in Newark, then on to Pittsburgh with stops in Harrisburg and State College (probably only some of the trains would stop in State College), then on to Indianapolis via Columbus and Dayton, and then on to Chicago--with maybe a line added later to St. Louis from Indianapolis and a line from Harrisburg to Baltimore and DC. Sound familar? Its basically the old PRR without the Pittsburg to Chicago direct route and with the bottlenecks removed such as the entrances into 30th St and Baltimore stations from the west. He thought it might work if the trains could average around 180-200 mph traveling between the cities and avoiding other "political" stops. However, you have to keep in mind that his discussion with me took place before the rise of the "discount' airlines and their effect on air travel and air fares.
The Amtrak study recommend that the PADOT look at the possibility of Thruway buses connecting with the frequent Keystone trains at Harrisburg. Whether there would be enough traffic to justify frequent buses from Harrisburg to State College would have to be determined.
Greyhound has two buses each way per day between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh via State College, Altoona, etc. It also has one or two others that run non-stop via the turnpike.
I drove the turnpike from Harrisburg to Altoona several times this summer. Most of the traffic was clipping along north of 70 mph. Motorists in Pennsylvania appear to pay as little attention to the speed limits as motorists in Texas.
Sam1,
That's the scheduled Greyhound service. All the other buses I mentioned in regards to State College are operated independently by Fullington (which was just sold to a French company) except for the Chinese bus service to/from NYC. Even for the local Greyhound buses from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh via State College and Altoona, the main source of traffic is to/from State College the last I heard. (And the majority of the Lewistown station Amtrak passengers coming from the east to Lewistown or heading east from Lewistown are also from the State College area the last I heard.) You are right about the Turnpike speeds. I know a State Trooper who had spent some time on Turnpike duty in the 1990's and he told me that unless the weather was bad, it was rare to pull someone over unless they were doing at least 10 miles over the speed limit.
Incidentially, now that I-99 is completed from State College to Altoona, you can probably make just about the same time going from Harrisburg to Altoona via US 322 to I-99 as you would driving the Turnpike but minus the tolls and saving about 10 miles, especially if you are going to drive "only" 65 on the TP. Once Penn DOT gets around to raising the posted speed limit on the 18 miles of newer US 322 interstate quality highway from 55 to 65 mph, it might even be quicker. For sure it will be faster if Penn DOT ever completes the upgrade of last 9 miles of US 322 which is still 2 lane just east of State College-but that's at least 10 years off.
alphas You are right about the Turnpike speeds. I know a State Trooper who had spent some time on Turnpike duty in the 1990's and he told me that unless the weather was bad, it was rare to pull someone over unless they were doing at least 10 miles over the speed limit.
oltmannd local rural GA sheriffs where there is no rule. They will make up speeds to write tickets for. There is no "ticket proof" speed - particularly if you are from "out of county".
I lived in Stone Mountain back in the 80's and used to encounter that in many rural Georgia counties. And that was a huge contrast with I 75 between Chattanooga and Atlanta, where many people routinely went well above 80.
oltmanndHowever, I find it difficult to average 60 mph door to door on a long trip even if I cruise at 72 mph all day long.
Really? We drove from Oregon back to Chicago in August. Out west in Idaho, Wyoming and much of Nebraska, it is easy to cruise at 80 or more, and unless you make a lot of pit stops, you can average 75.
schlimmReally? We drove from Oregon back to Chicago in August. Out west in Idaho, Wyoming and much of Nebraska, it is easy to cruise at 80 or more, and unless you make a lot of pit stops, you can average 75.
oltmanndYou can't make time like that if your destination is in the NE.
Right you are!! Used to drive from Stone Mountain to Wheaton, IL back then. 750 miles, at best just under 13 hours - so not even 60mph average - and that felt like a real effort, especially with three decent-sized metro areas, Nashville, Louisville and Indianapolis - along the way to slow things. Yet we haven't had Amtrak to Atlanta and on to Florida for years. With all the senior citizens, you would think that route would be competitive.
schlimm,
There aren't that many senior citizens anymore that refuse to fly longer distances when they don't want to drive, especially now that most of the airlines give them discounts once they hit 65. (I know of one lady that refused to fly until she was 81. Once she tried it, she couldn't believe how reluctant she had been not to use air. Now she loves it and is traveling all over the country to visit relatives. She can't get over the fact that she can get on a plane and be clear across the USA in about 5 hours.) With the senior discounts, it is cheaper to fly than go long distance by Amtrak coach much of the time and far cheaper than Amtrak sleeper. Heck, you can even find long-distance airfares that are cheaper than going by bus nowadays.
Oltmannd,
I've driven I-80 through Nevada. Say you are going east, once you pass Fernley, about 33 miles east of Reno, the posted speed limt is 75. The last time I went just about 85--and everyone passed me. The only car I saw get pulled over by the police was someone who was doing about 100 when she passed me.
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