Interesting article. I posted although I personally don't agree with him.
http://corridorrail.com/u-s-a-dining-car-primer-history/?fbclid=IwAR00kcI5K2GLeuhN4zeHfvLqWZi9tO-OqaIyE8UMlWbTibazQHsRdi8vtm4
The article mentions some RR's dining cars had finger bowls.
My first (and only) experience with a finger bowl was on the B&O's Cincinnatian enroute from Detroit to Cincinnati. I did not know what they were when our waiter placed them on the table along with clean white cloth napkins but my friend, fortunatly for me, did and he brought me up to speed. Very FIRST class operation that the B&O provided for coach fare.
trying to work around a 403 forbidden code. Success!!
A good dinning car may cause doubling of passengers. If so, if that revenue off sets the costs of adding a dinning car to a short train then add it. If enroute passenger revenue off sets the costs of operating the diner it is a no brainer to add it on that train. That is mainly more waiters and cooks.
blue streak 1A good dining car may cause doubling of passengers. If so, if that revenue offsets the costs of adding a dining car to a short train then add it.
The economic argument here seems to include 100% marginal revenue from the 'incremental' added passengers -- since the train was 'already running' there is little additional cost in putting a few more passengers on it. That may not be true, and if it is not, the entire cost of the food service has to be covered in whatever the marginal revenue of the 'additional passengers' is.
One instance of food poisoning or allergy wipes out... well, possibly years of "profit" from running the service.
Remember, on some of these trains the staff can't even keep out in front of restroom trashing. Now add food to the "issue".
Personally, I was perfectly happy with an overstuffed 'Am and cheese' sandwich and a can of Coke accompanied by a large paper cup filled with pelletized ice: the quality was there, and the cost reasonable both in terms of buying it and having it ready to dispense. Extending this to the kind of sandwiches the immediately post-Lorenzo Continental Airlines used to serve would not measurably increase per-trip cost, but would greatly increase the 'take rate' for onboard service of this kind.
We have discussed many potential issues for sit-down dining here; I think if we did some Delta-style brainstorming we could easily come up with 'best practices' for a sweet spot between high-cost service and practical Congressionally-mandated cost effectiveness -- if I recall correctly, dining-car service is expected to pay for itself directly, whether or not it increased ridership, and while COVID-19 was a useful excuse to push the drop-dead date for this back a few years, I doubt it has gone away.
At the risk of inviting wrath upon my head -- I worry about the effect of midterm elections on the Congress responsible for mandating Amtrak profitability. Keep in mind that the policy is already 'on the books' and all that's needed is directed enforcement. That might be worse than anything Mica arranged for...
OvermodI worry about the effect of midterm elections on the Congress responsible for mandating Amtrak profitability. Keep in mind that the policy is already 'on the books' and all that's needed is directed enforcement. That might be worse than anything Mica arranged for...
If the current trends persist to November, a large segment of one faction might well attempt to cripple Amtrak, if not actually end it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMi7z4hJxGE
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMi7z4hJxGE
In a sense, this car illustrates everything that was 'wrong' with the late-'40s streamliner diners. The whole decor, very expensive, was dated almost before it began: it's now a regrettable combination of retro "diners" on land, and that idea of "luxury" as late as the early Sixties with that tuck-and-roll leatherette and spindly legs that would never pass modern CEM muster.
Then just look at the video around 12:05. Imagine hiring that amount of people to run what the narrator admits was already a 'loss leader' service. Think of the old joke about 'what we lose on margin, we'll make up on volume!' Amtrak in particular isn't going to have anything it could 'make up' on any route in any service if this kind of cost isn't subsidized... perhaps as some kind of job incentive, perhaps as community service? Not going to give you the all-smiles, all the time kind of service that anything of the displayed magnitude demands.
Dishwashing with hot water and hot air? A commodity in every home now. Preserving food with dry ice to cut down on commissary expense? Outdated by decades for trains with HEP. Preparing the meals in that little stainless kitchen, by any cost-effective staff? Long since superseded, by equipment that Amtrak doesn't even use today!
There's a picture of the UP's equivalent of the Turquoise Room -- even making allowances for a Piranesi-like exaggeration of available scale, look at the wasted space! I was just looking at the 20th Century Limited accommodation for 'business meetings enroute' -- you'd hold a better meeting in a motel business center.
And then there's the meal check system. Don't get me started on it, as I've already discussed what I find objectionable about it in other posts here. The point is that nobody is nostalgic for that rigmarole, and no new passenger who is sane would voluntarily accept it just to get a train meal... except maybe if it was already paid for as 'part of the ticket' and the check simply documents that the meal was eaten.
I would love to see Amtrak try the approach of advertising special meals, complete with how to get yourself signed up for endless e-mail by requesting the recipe. At least it might help the publishing industry, or some of the online marketing companies... pity it remains to be seen whether anyone wants recipes for Amtrak's recent entrees. We should develop some that are interesting...
Modern diners can't have separate chairs unless they lock into the floor and incorporate CEM. The thought of those spindly legs in that dome car, and what happens in a wreck, is almost unspeakable, whether or not those were 'design vernacular' seventy-odd years ago.
This reminds me of an attempt, one of the very first things I did as a 'consultant', nearly 50 years ago: a dining car inside the Amfleet shell, back in the days those were supposed to be used system-wide. This had tables that folded down into the walls, with a light show built into the roof for 'disco' entertainment after hours. The food was to be prepared as 'kits' with minimal prep, designed to be heated quickly (in an odd case of 'old is new again, this was before the widespread use of microwave heating, so done with turboconvection staged heating). In those days the chairs could be folded and staged as needed. The tablecloths were non-woven paper (very similar in look and feel to linen, and capable of being washed a number of times if possible) and one of the 'marketing items' was that the silverware was to be stamped out of the same stainless used to fabricate the Amfleet cars. I well remember what the "problem" with this was, and why I didn't pursue it further, but some of the approaches remain viable for implementation in PRIIA-compliant Siemens construction... now that the expensively procured Viewliner diners are 'no longer wanted'...
One thing 'on the table' (pun intended) is that UP-branded wine. Even if Government aid has to pander to the 'drys' there should be room in the budget somewhere to subsidize winemakers to produce a range of Amtrak vintages (we'll probably need some sort of ritzy-sounding name, since "Amtrak" helpless invokes for me the days of Pathmark generic labels...) which might then be promoted for other potential markets... with profits therefrom subsidizing the train-borne opportunity. Of course this is of a piece with 'name brands' in the onboard drinks service... something other posters have noted as being very important to provide and run well. Be interesting to see the training program and collateral for teaching the attendants (or whatever we call them) mixology...
charlie hebdoIf the current trends persist to November, a large segment of one faction might well attempt to cripple Amtrak, if not actually end it.
Sounds good. I'll remember that on election day.
Move the dining car kitchen to the dining area of the first floor sightseer lounge, leave the snack bar downstairs as well, serve alcholic drinks on the upper level with a small serving staff. Have the upper level of sightseer lounge is dining tables the other half is lounge seating. Add dummy waiters. If you did that then you could cut the dining car entirely.
To be perfectly honest Amtrak gets away with that config across two seperate cars and never uses a full dining car on the Texas Eagle, been half a dining car for several years now. They do the same on another overnight train. So in my view consolidate to one car with more glass for sightseeing. They can leave the dining car portion open between meals for consumption of snacks and other activities.
They also have at least a 1/2 to 1/3 empty baggage car they tote around with them on routes they tote a baggage car. I have a hard time believing that is ever full. Use that space for food storage on long trips and at the 30 min station stops transfer from there to the kitchen the food or liquor you are running out of.
I don't think Amtrak will ever make money on food service with it's low ridership counts on the LD trains. I think they should continue to pay for the meals out of sleeping car fare and offer them as free to sleeping car passengers and charge to coach. I think all the tickets sold on the LD train should attempt to cover the full overhead staffing of the train and they should not try the profit / loss per car thing the private railroads attempted. Amtrak can also easily cut back via its on board staffing quite a bit. It's ridiculous how many people they haul around on a LD train that are employees. Apply some automation here or redesign to reduce the onboard staff. Definitely the dining car is overstaffed even when it is just half car.
CMStPnPI don't think Amtrak will ever make money on food service with it's low ridership counts on the LD trains. I think they should continue to pay for the meals out of sleeping car fare and offer them as free to sleeping car passengers and charge to coach. I think all the tickets sold on the LD train should attempt to cover the full overhead staffing of the train and they should not try the profit / loss per car thing the private railroads attempted. Amtrak can also easily cut back via its on board staffing quite a bit. It's ridiculous how many people they haul around on a LD train that are employees. Apply some automation here or redesign to reduce the onboard staff. Definitely the dining car is overstaffed even when it is just half car.
In the Hey Day's of railroad passenger service - The Dining and Commissary Department was not a profit center - it was a loss leader for every railroad that had Diners.
Diners were more passenger PR as well as corporate PR for shippers/consignees of the carriers freight service. Feed your on line Shippers and Consignees and those that control the routing of their traffic with good meals and they will tend to continue routing their shipments over your carrier.
My Grandfather was the head of the B&O's Dining and Commissary Department for the final 20 years of his 47 year career. Only being 11 when he retired, I didn't understand many of the working conversations he had with me within earshot. When our family had dinner at my Grandfather's house, he was the chef and he KNEW how to cook.
https://borhs.org/shopping/images/60314.pdf
BaltACDIn the Hey Day's of railroad passenger service - The Dining and Commissary Department was not a profit center - it was a loss leader for every railroad that had Diners. Diners were more passenger PR as well as corporate PR for shippers/consignees of the carriers freight service. Feed your on line Shippers and Consignees and those that control the routing of their traffic with good meals and they will tend to continue routing their shipments over your carrier. My Grandfather was the head of the B&O's Dining and Commissary Department for the final 20 years of his 47 year career. Only being 11 when he retired, I didn't understand many of the working conversations he had with me within earshot. When our family had dinner at my Grandfather's house, he was the chef and he KNEW how to cook.
Agree and understood what your saying. Though my only experience with the B&O is with Monopoly. I think some of what they used the passenger trains for in regards to high roller clients has been taken over by the business train in some limited cases. Take for example the CSX train to Churchill Downs, I am sure there was a fair number of clients that used that train as well as CSX officials.
While I don't think Amtrak will ever make money on it, I think they should raise the standards better than they are today because the pandemic meals were total crap (even though the TRAINS Magazine Waffle House crowd enjoyed them). If I am traveling first class I expect a lot better from a meal than the Amtrak version AND I actually get it on the Rocky Mountaineer when I am in Gold Leaf class. The Rocky Mountaineer is not paying through the nose for the meals it serves, those meals are more than likely within reach of Amtraks budget or a stretch of the budget.
CMStPnP (even though the TRAINS Magazine Waffle House crowd enjoyed them).
HEY! Watch that Waffle House stuff!
Any place where you have to show a pack of cigarettes to get in is fine with me!
Amtrak dinning suffers from low turn over. None of us like this idea especially this poster. But for the good of Amtrak turn over rates must be improved. IMO a turn over of 40 minutes may work. Passengers will have to give meal choice before meal time. Better have chosen when making reservation. That will guarantee a meal. It may be some kind of meal check along with seat check is shown above coach seats. Intermediate boarding passengers will have to pick left over seating if did not pay for meal(s) when booking. That only if did not pay for meal will wait to see if any left overs. Late trains wil have to be flexible with seating. Responsibily for LSA.
1st seating preferrence will have already be admitted and be seated. Appertizers given earlier while chef(s) prepare entres. As entrees eaten deserts prepared and appertizers, entrees for next seating prepared. That protocol on and on! Passenger will have to leave before 35 minute time to allow for clening. Passengers of course can go to lounge car ( on all trains with diner)if desired.
Behind scene preparations need changing as well. It may be some overhead storage above maybe 2 tables will be needed especially single level trains. That way those tables will be availabe for eating. Extra food will need storage in baggage cars equipped with wiring for containers that need refrigeration. 24/7 service provided.
Behind the scenes.
There will be the need for fork lifts at certain stops that can move trash and unload needed meal service provisions to diner, or have that station have the baggage level carts to drag addition meals to the diner. This in coordination with baggage movements. Electrical connections will need installing in bags. 24/7 service also provided,
Routes that have enough service might get intermediate cateres. Cannot believe Sunset or Cardinal having intermediates which will cause restocking problems.
This kind of service will entice more passengers especially coach.
Once enough revenue cars available there may be some routes with 14 - 16 revenue cars Gardner be d---? Definitely will improve revenue vs costs. Except very solw season Silvers including Palmetto, Crescent if NOL departure changed back to between 0700 -0600, LSL as well.
Also EB, CZ, Chief, Coast starlight.
CMStPnPWhile I don't think Amtrak will ever make money on it, I think they should raise the standards better than they are today
Did you just say, "We need spend more on a money losing operation?"
blue streak 1Amtrak dinning suffers from low turn over. None of us like this idea especially this poster. But for the good of Amtrak turn over rates must be improved. IMO a turn over of 40 minutes may work. ...Passenger will have to leave before 35 minute time to allow for clening.
It is not reasonable to force people to eat a full meal in 35 minutes. It will give people digestive problems, and people who already have digestive problems won't be able to eat that fast.
MidlandMike blue streak 1 Amtrak dinning suffers from low turn over. None of us like this idea especially this poster. But for the good of Amtrak turn over rates must be improved. IMO a turn over of 40 minutes may work. ...Passenger will have to leave before 35 minute time to allow for clening. It is not reasonable to force people to eat a full meal in 35 minutes. It will give people digestive problems, and people who already have digestive problems won't be able to eat that fast.
blue streak 1 Amtrak dinning suffers from low turn over. None of us like this idea especially this poster. But for the good of Amtrak turn over rates must be improved. IMO a turn over of 40 minutes may work. ...Passenger will have to leave before 35 minute time to allow for clening.
You can get them through a Waffle House in 35 minutes. Indigestion guaranteed.
MidlandMikeIt is not reasonable to force people to eat a full meal in 35 minutes. It will give people digestive problems, and people who already have digestive problems won't be able to eat that fast.
It is also solving an issue that does not exist. I am guessing MidlandMike has never sat in a third seating in an Amtrak dining car which I have never seen full to capacity.
Also want to mention, the most popular and in demand meal is dinner. At least that is the way it is on the Texas Eagle. I am going to guess that route and schedule has an influence on this as well. Dinner is served right out of Chicago headed South and out of Dallas headed North, two large cities with a large influx of passengers to the train. Breakfest North is outside of St. Louis but because that is on a corridor, not a lot of people are up at 6-7 a.m. to hop on a train to Chicago......and why should they be as there is another train after it. Breakfest South is in the middle of nowhere. Lunch South same deal and too close to Dallas that the Dallas departing passengers usually skip the first lunch seating.
Lunch and Breakest meals are more lightly patronized on the Texas Eagle at least because you have passengers that skip Breakfest in order to sleep in and others that skip lunch because they do not have much of an appetite after a large breakfest.
So on the Texas Eagle at least with it's low ridership, I do not see any issue with anyone taking 60 min to eat. What also inevitably happens on the Texas Eagle since the servers know that the third seating is largely a ghost town is they let folks stay as long as they want and setup the next seating around the stragglers which is never more than 1-2 tables.
So I thought I would post as a rather amusing contrast which I am sure will get under the skin of the Waffle House crowd here. Do you think Amtrak would ever be able to charge 4 people $700 for a meal and have them leave the meal happy?
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/is-disney-worlds-california-grill-anniversary-menu-worth-it-203027722.html
Granted it is ridiculous to expect this on any train with a tiny kitchen but it goes to show you that if you can produce quality you can also charge a higher price.
CMStPnP I am guessing MidlandMike has never sat in a third seating in an Amtrak dining car which I have never seen full to capacity. ...
It's been some time since I traveled on Amtrak LD extensivly, but I usually chose the last seating at dinner so I wouldn't be rushed. And that's even before I developed acid reflux.
BaltACDYou can get them through a Waffle House in 35 minutes. Indigestion guaranteed.
Very applicable to the small space in a railroad car, where you want to maximize the seating during 'meal hours'...
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