Here's a link to an article based in part on an interview with poor Steve Brown, the engineer of the ill-fated Amtrak Cascade.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/fired-amtrak-engineer-opens-up-about-2017-dupont-crash-why-he-wants-back-in-a-locomotive/
IMO, it's heartbreaking. Amtrak trained him poorly, and he made a mistake. End of story. (Yes, the consequences were tragic; I get that.)
He loved his job. He's a railfan, a train guy like us, and was known to be careful and conscientious.
A county court could be about to award him four years of back pay because they agreed that Amtrak is the real culprit here, for not training Brown properly.
What purpose does it serve to vilify this man and deny him his chosen occupation? He made a mistake. We all make mistakes. He was not negligent, as far as I can tell.
He deserves a second chance.
Still in training.
As I have stated, ad nauseam to some, Amtrak's dangerous hiring, vetting, and training procedures are the reason and folks like Bostian, Brown, and Beatson become the 'victims' also. Had those three been vetted properly it is quite possible that Frankford Jct. and Dupont may not have happened. Amtrak's history of the unknowing teaching and supervising the unknowing continues.
I agree about training. But not about vetting. The man did a good job for many years. No vetting could have predicted this momentary brain fade. Also, the mile markers apparently weren't very visible at night. But the training was a complete fiasco.
I know we've already beaten this wreck to death. But that article was poignant, showing this man's humanity. Like Joe says, he's a victim too.
An equal opportunity tragedy.
Washington DOT is also complicit in the lack of proper training. They controlled the times Amtrak was allowed to perform training runs and they also set a 'hard' date for the start of the new routing. They put Amtrak in the no win position - a position the I have not heard that Amtrak tried to fight WSDOT about the training time they were permitted, which double down on Amtrak being incompetent in the requirements needed for adequate training of employees on the new route. Conductors are also supposed to be qualified on the physical characteristics of the territories they operate upon - I have not seen or heard anything about the qualifications or lack thereof for the Conductor of this run.
Amtrak's training 'program' was inadequate and made potential victims of all that participated in it. Nobody gets let off the hook.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Lithonia OperatorNo vetting could have predicted this momentary brain fade.
I disagree. The man had 14.5 miles of railroad to learn and could not remember where a curve was that required a 49mph reduction in speed???!!! This on the inaugural run???!!! Would not that be foremost on your mind? Vetting indeed was a factor and an experienced operations supervisor would have observed the propensity of one to lose situational awareness. Beatson had no such experience to determine that.
Amtrak is solely responsible for creating this 'perfect storm' with its hiring, vetting, training, and supervisory procedures. Those involved are victims of this.
Just a thought. The guy had been OK for some years but now he was tossed into a new situation, with pressure to learn quickly. Perhaps he was not a quick learner, which might have been known through proper vetting. Then he could have received a less steep learning curve as he needed?
The physical and emotional trauma Brown has and continues to endure is more than enough punishment for any errors he made in this case.
I don't operate higher speed passenger trains, but I do know what it's like to set out on a new route with the same amount of familiarization or less than what Brown got. It takes months to truly learn the road, and I would have a copy of the track profile out on the desk to follow along.
I've forgotten exactly where I was on numerous occasions, both on trains and highways. Fatigue can do that to anyone. I've forgotten speed restrictions or remembered them a little too late and ended up doing 5 or 10 over in places. I've been lucky enough that this was not enough to cause a derailment, and from talking amongst ourselves I know that I am far from the only one to have done this, or worse (one newer engineer forgot about a 25 mph slow order and hit it at almost 50. Another crew didn't read enough of the fine print and took dimensional loads through a tunnel at track speed instead of the 10 mph they should have done).
I've also been reminded by the conductor about various things at different times, and when I'm the conductor sometimes I've reminded the engineer.
Brown is a human, just like all of us. Humans are not perfect, we all make mistakes. Brown's mistake of missing the markers and getting lost happened to be a key step in a chain reaction that led to a train wreck with deaths and injuries.
We usually don't ban people from driving cars for making a mistake like this on the road. I don't see why Brown shouldn't get his engineer's license back, whether he is fit to work again would of course depend on his physical and mental state.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I certainly have empathy for those who have made mistakes that result in death and injury but being realistic what railroad would hire them? Just suppose they were rehired and it happened again? Can you imagine the public outcry?
I seriously doubt if many bus drivers who by their negligence have an accident with three fatalities and 50 injured are going to be rehired to drive any bus.
SD70DudeWe usually don't ban people from driving cars for making a mistake like this on the road. I don't see why Brown shouldn't get his engineer's license back, whether he is fit to work again would of course depend on his physical and mental state.
Transportation for hire organizations take a very dim view of personnel that have caused a major incident in the past from having the opportunity to do it again. The responsibilities of handling potentially hundreds of lives or thousands of tons of cargo are taken seriously be the companies in the business.
Operating one's own private transportation and operating some form of tranportation for hire are totally different undertakings. Suspect Engineer Brown is still allowed to drive his personal vehicle, he will not be hired to operate a locomotive on the railroads. Maybe he should become a Suez Canal Pilot. [/bad sarcasm]
Precisely! Brown and a guy driving a car are two totally different cases, not remotely analogous.
I'm speaking of what would be right and just, not what will actually happen.
Of course no railroad will hire Brown now, rightly or not too much liability is attached to his name. I can only imagine the headlines if he were ever involved in another incident, even if it was not his fault.
Over the years numerous railroaders have made mistakes that have led to severe incidents, and many of them have later been returned to service. Here is one such example from my area, if a passenger train had been involved in this incident instead of two freights there would most likely have been fatalities.
http://arbitrations.netfirms.com/croa/40/CR3702.htm
That individual went on to have a safe and productive career after being given his job back.
Perhaps one of our resident truckers could chime in as to the likelihood of regaining a commercial license after one has lost theirs.
I find our society confuses punishment and revenge with justice all too often.
SD70DudeI'm speaking of what would be right and just, not what will actually happen. Of course no railroad will hire Brown now, rightly or not too much liability is attached to his name. I can only imagine the headlines if he were ever involved in another incident, even if it was not his fault. Over the years numerous railroaders have made mistakes that have led to severe incidents, and many of them have later been returned to service. Here is one such example from my area, if a passenger train had been involved in this incident instead of two freights there would most likely have been fatalities. http://arbitrations.netfirms.com/croa/40/CR3702.htm That individual went on to have a safe and productive career after being given his job back. Perhaps one of our resident truckers could chime in as to the likelihood of regaining a commercial license after one has lost theirs. I find our society confuses punishment and revenge with justice all too often.
Back in the day - Truckers that had their commercial licenses revoked or suspended in one state would just go to another state and get one. There wasn't a lot of reciprocity among the states.
With the CDL and Electronic Log Book being in the hands of the Feds that is no longer the case, although I would expect some try to skirt the regulations. Cat mom would know much more accurately than I.
It's apparently easy to confuse compassion with safety.
If someone makes a mistake and learns from it, how likely are they to make that same mistake again?
Most of us seem to be in agreement that Brown was set up to fail by the poor training he received and the overall situation he was placed in (new route, new locomotive, another familiarizing employee in the cab). It seems he worked safely as both a conductor and engineer for over a decade before this incident, why shouldn't he be capable of doing so again on routes he is properly familiarized on?
It is simple, easy and convenient to place as much blame as possible on the crew in a case like this. Railroad management has done so for decades, and it seems there are some on here who would fit right in with them.
Brown already has one court ruling in his favour. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how his case turns out.
Safety and punishment are not the same thing.
SD70DudeIf someone makes a mistake and learns from it, how likely are they to make that same mistake again?
It depends on the intelligence / complacency of the individual in my view. My first Army squad leader made a life threatening mistake in Vietnam that cost him all his teeth. He made it again about 15 years later during a NATO exercise. You would have thought the first time around the pain would have been enough to remember never to do it again but......it wasn't. So you would think common sense would prevail in preventing the mistake from happening again but I say that is probably throwing good money after bad because the mistake never should have happened in the first place.
As for this specific accident I think the readers here are a little too forgiving. Regardless of lack of training of the engineer, he took the assignment......which is his acceptance he was ready for the run. Further as I see things the Conductor is also supposed to be validating safe operation of the train as backup to the Locomotive Engineer and one conductor reminded him of the curve. Now I could understand if the sharp curve was well into the journey but it was only 20 min from the start of the trip and what was the Engineer doing? Talking on the radio to the Conductor on a low priority item when he should heve been lazer focused on train operation (complacency will bite you every time in dangerous professions). Both conductor and locomotive engineer should have delayed whatever they were talking about until AFTER the dangerous curve. I can understand the sympathy for lack of training runs and training of the crew. C'mon though, both locomotive engineer and conductor failed here on this run despite repeated warnings (audible and verbal) both should have been punished via termination. How much forgiving is too much?
The $18 Billion PTC system is looking more and more like a wise investment and major safety upgrade.
CMStPnP As for this specific accident I think the readers here are a little too forgiving. Regardless of lack of training of the engineer, he took the assignment......which is his acceptance he was ready for the run.
As for this specific accident I think the readers here are a little too forgiving. Regardless of lack of training of the engineer, he took the assignment......which is his acceptance he was ready for the run.
I remember going over this point in another thread about this incident.
If Amtrak deemed Brown to be qualified and he refused the call, he probably would have been disciplined, perhaps quite severely. While it's not right, in my experience the ever looming threat of this is sometimes enough to intimidate crews into taking calls they probably shouldn't.
So we have an engineer operating a new route without enough familiarization, in a new design of locomotive he is also not familiar with, all with the added distraction of a trainee in the cab.
The "audible warning" from the overspeed alarm actually had nothing to do with the 30 mph curve, and it provided yet another distraction at the worst possible time.
If Brown had a previous history of screw ups and well deserved discipline then I would probably agree with you. But he doesn't, in fact his record was clean and his immediate supervisors spoke well of him (for whatever that's worth).
The situation Brown was placed in set him up to fail, and as a result I do not believe this case warrants a lifetime ban from this profession.
SD70Dude CMStPnP As for this specific accident I think the readers here are a little too forgiving. Regardless of lack of training of the engineer, he took the assignment......which is his acceptance he was ready for the run. I remember going over this point in another thread about this incident. If Amtrak deemed Brown to be qualified and he refused the call, he would probably would have been disciplined, perhaps quite severely. While it's not right, in my experience the ever looming threat of this is sometimes enough to intimidate crews into taking calls they probably shouldn't. So we have an engineer operating a new route without enough familiarization, in a new design of locomotive he is also not familiar with, all with the added distraction of a trainee in the cab. The "audible warning" from the overspeed alarm actually had nothing to do with the 30 mph curve, and it provided yet another distraction at the worst possible time. If Brown had a previous history of screw ups and well deserved discipline then I would probably agree with you. But he doesn't, in fact his record was clean and his immediate supervisors spoke well of him (for whatever that's worth). The situation Brown was placed in set him up to fail, and as a result I do not believe this case warrants a lifetime ban from this profession.
If Amtrak deemed Brown to be qualified and he refused the call, he would probably would have been disciplined, perhaps quite severely. While it's not right, in my experience the ever looming threat of this is sometimes enough to intimidate crews into taking calls they probably shouldn't.
I heartily agree with everythng you said, particularly the part I've bolded.
SD70DudeIf Amtrak deemed Brown to be qualified and he refused the call, he would probably would have been disciplined, perhaps quite severely.
H-h-h-h-m-m-m, just like the that MORTAR scene in the movie "STRIPES"......
https://youtu.be/Fjj4a3zB1ag?t=40
I'm still OK with the outcome because he was in a position of responsibility and could not find it within himself to push back and say no. I think that goes with the job of operating a transportation conveyance with people on board that are in back and depend on his judgement calls.
The other item I find rather curious on this. This guy is a union member and has paid dues for how many years now? His union should be raising a virtual *** storm in public over this whole incident but is instead just sitting back and is relatively silent on it. Why is he fighting alone in civil court?
The union probably knows it's a losing cause, and they don't want to spend political capital on this. You know what they say: Pick your battles.
CMStPnPThe other item I find rather curious on this. This guy is a union member and has paid dues for how many years now? His union should be raising a virtual *** storm in public over this whole incident but is instead just sitting back and is relatively silent on it. Why is he fighting alone in civil court?
How do we know that his representation in civil court is not being provided through the Union?
BaltACDHow do we know that his representation in civil court is not being provided through the Union?
Then it is sloppy reporting because it states in all the articles I read as Mr Browns lawsuit vs lawsuit filed on his behalf. Now is the union reimbursing him for it? Possibly, but that was missed in reporting as well. Regardless thats not an excuse for lack of verbal public support especially when the judge verbally sided with the defendent..........no other remarks from the union? Just lack of them.
Under the railway labor act the union had better defend a member or even one who is not a member but under their jurisdiction. The consequences can be drastic if it doe not.. I was involved indirectly with somone who almost all said he needed to be fired. However union had enough pressure to mount a defense.
blue streak 1 Under the railway labor act the union had better defend a member or even one who is not a member but under their jurisdiction. The consequences can be drastic if it doe not.. I was involved indirectly with somone who almost all said he needed to be fired. However union had enough pressure to mount a defense.
Balt and you could be right....what do I know. If it was me I would be upset over the lack of a public statement of support.
CMStPnP blue streak 1 Under the railway labor act the union had better defend a member or even one who is not a member but under their jurisdiction. The consequences can be drastic if it doe not.. I was involved indirectly with somone who almost all said he needed to be fired. However union had enough pressure to mount a defense. Balt and you could be right....what do I know. If it was me I would be upset over the lack of a public statement of support.
Public support only wins on TV 'reality' shows. While court activities may be public activities, they should not be swayed by outside hucksterism.
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