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Would HSR between NYC and Chicago be popular?

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Posted by 54light15 on Saturday, December 12, 2020 3:28 PM

I recall reading how the Merritt, Taconic and Palisades Parkways were meant as make-work projects in the depression. Linear parks with a road in the middle was the idea. Recreational roads for people that could afford cars in the 1930s. 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 12, 2020 5:09 PM

54light15
I've seen a photo of Amelia Earhart near one of the trains when the air-rail service was started. Can't recall where. 

It was in the thread we had on it, I think in Classic Trains.  First run of the TAT westbound, I think, without looking to check.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, December 12, 2020 9:14 PM

54light15

I recall reading how the Merritt, Taconic and Palisades Parkways were meant as make-work projects in the depression. Linear parks with a road in the middle was the idea. Recreational roads for people that could afford cars in the 1930s. 

 

I grew up in the area.  The Merritt was the alternative to the Post Road (US 1) which continually ran thru congested areas (until the Turnpike was built), and with other connecting parkways like the Wilber Cross, were the only fast way into New England.  The Taconic seems to have been built to more modern standards, and was the only expressway of any kind on the east side of the Hudson north of the suburbs.  As I recall, trucks were not allowed on either.

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Posted by Gramp on Saturday, December 12, 2020 10:44 PM

Thank you for your comments Midland Mike. My point in my earlier post was the early interstate-like highways like the New York Thruway, Penn., Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois Turnpikes were built with economy in mind. What followed was much irresponsible construction as I see it. Costly destruction in many cities. Not just physically, but psychologically. It wasn't until Memphis stood up to save its city park that the steamroller was slowed a little. Roads have become viewed as a free good and a "right" by many. As a result there's been terrible economic distortion. 

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Posted by MMLDelete on Saturday, December 12, 2020 11:40 PM

I didn't read most of the article, or even all of this thread.

Thus project will never happen, let's face it.

But IF IT DID, what would be the travel time, assuming, say, five station stops?

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, December 13, 2020 9:37 AM

Gramp
Roads have become viewed as a free good and a "right" by many.

I think if you consult your history books you will notice that government having federal plans and subsidies for improved roadways date back to the early 19th century, namely the "American System" of Hamilton and later Henry Clay.  

The ideas of the federal government enhancing transportation infrastructure was expanded under Lincoln.  

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Posted by Backshop on Sunday, December 13, 2020 9:42 AM

Gramp
Roads have become viewed as a free good and a "right" by many. As a result there's been terrible economic distortion. 

"Free" nothing.  How about those pesky gas taxes we pay on every gallon?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Sunday, December 13, 2020 10:00 AM

Backshop
 
Gramp
Roads have become viewed as a free good and a "right" by many. As a result there's been terrible economic distortion. 

 

"Free" nothing.  How about those pesky gas taxes we pay on every gallon?

That is quite true, but since gas taxes are not that visible (they're part of the posted price), most people don't make the connection between gas taxes and roads.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by JPS1 on Sunday, December 13, 2020 11:54 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
That is quite true, but since gas taxes are not that visible (they're part of the posted price), most people don't make the connection between gas taxes and roads. 

Most of my neighbors understand that the price of fuel includes federal and state taxes.  What they don't understand is that these taxes only cover a portion of the cost to build and maintain the nation's roadways.

According to the Congressional Budget Office, fuel taxes cover approximately 40 to 45 percent of roadway costs in the U.S.  The difference is made up by tolls, property taxes (local and county roads), excise taxes (heavy vehicles, tires, etc.), sales taxes, and transfers from the general fund(s).  

If motorists saw the true cost of driving at the pump, i.e., all of the costs mentioned above were priced into the cost of fuel, we probably would see more fuel-efficient vehicles, a swifter move to alternative powered vehicles, and a greater willingness to use public transit.  

Unfortunately, the politicians will never agree to show the true cost of driving at the pump.  

If every mode of transportation were priced to show its fully allocated cost to the users, most the subsidies and cross subsidies could be eliminated.  Each mode probably would find its natural market.  As it is it takes a forensic accountant to trace all the subsidies.    

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, December 13, 2020 12:24 PM

[quote user="JPS1"]....

If motorists saw the true cost of driving at the pump, i.e., all of the costs mentioned above were priced into the cost of fuel, we probably would see more fuel-efficient vehicles, a swifter move to alternative powered vehicles, and a greater willingness to use public transit.  

Unfortunately, the politicians will never agree to show the true cost of driving at the pump.  

If every mode of transportation were priced to show its fully allocated cost to the users, most the subsidies and cross subsidies could be eliminated.  Each mode probably would find its natural market.  As it is it takes a forensic accountant to trace all the subsidies. [/quote]

A number of states are crying that with the efficiency of newer vehicles that fuel tax 'income' for the state are down.  As of yet I am not aware of the states getting a 'fuel tax' cut out of electric or alternative fuel vehicle - so at present such vehicles are getting a free ride.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by 54light15 on Sunday, December 13, 2020 1:53 PM

I've always wondered that about electric vehicles. Do the owners pay any sort of road tax? Do charging stations at say, a shoppng mall charge a tax or are they free? 

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Posted by JPS1 on Sunday, December 13, 2020 7:50 PM

54light15
 I've always wondered that about electric vehicles. Do the owners pay any sort of road tax? Do charging stations at say, a shoppng mall charge a tax or are they free? 

EV drivers don't pay fuel taxes.  However, most of them pay property taxes, tolls, sales taxes, excise taxes, and income taxes.  They also pick up a portion of business taxes that are passed through to them (us) in the prices of the goods and services that we buy.    

Fuel and excise taxes are mostly used for federal and state highways.  Property taxes cover the costs of most local streets and county roads.

The Highway Trust Fund (HTF) collects the revenues for the federal road systems.  Until 2007 it raised enough from fuel and excise taxes to cover the needs of the federal highway system.  But beginning in 2008, it had to reach into the General Fund (GF) to cover revenue shortfalls because the Congress would not raise the fuel taxes to keep up with inflation and the need to expand the federal highway system.   

In FY18, fuel and other motor vehicle related taxes covered 80.1 percent of HTF expenditures.  The remainder was covered by transfers from the GF to the HTF. 

Most of those that can afford an EV probably pay more in property taxes, sales taxes, and income taxes than most middle-class Americans.  A portion of their tax burden finds its way into the HTF and/or are used for local streets and county roads. So, they are paying proportionally more indirectly for the roadways that they use.   

Most electricity sales in the U.S. wear sales tax, I believe.  To the extent that the sales tax flows to city or county governments, a portion of it could be used for roads, in which case the EV owner is paying a proxy fuel tax when he charges his vehicle.

Tesla owners pay an average of 28 cents per kWh for the juice that they get at a Tesla charging station in the U.S.  This rate is for a super charging station.  The owners of the high-end models get a credit for the juice that they use.  

At home, EV owners plug into their local power company.  They pay the local utility rate per kWh and sales tax in most jurisdictions.  Some of the sales tax may find its way into the expenditures for roadways. 

The community where I live in central Texas had several free charging stations, but they were vandalized.  The city gave them up.  I don’t know of any free charging stations in mall parking lots. 

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Posted by JPS1 on Sunday, December 13, 2020 7:59 PM

BaltACD
A number of states are crying that with the efficiency of newer vehicles that fuel tax 'income' for the state are down.  As of yet I am not aware of the states getting a 'fuel tax' cut out of electric or alternative fuel vehicle - so at present such vehicles are getting a free ride. 

A few years ago, if I remember correctly, DOT funded a study at a midwestern university; The University of Iowa sticks in my mine, to look at capturing miles driven by a vehicle using GPS.   In a nutshell, the vehicle would have a device that would upload how many miles were driving in a period.  And a road or use tax could be levied on the miles.  
 
As I remember, the technology works.  But people concerned about privacy pushed back on it.  A guy that stopped at the local massage parlor on his way home might have trouble convincing the wife that he was working late at the office if she got the tracking report.  Whoops!  Or in this age of equality, the other way around!
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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, December 13, 2020 8:08 PM

Some auto insurance plans based on mileage use such devices.

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Posted by cbq9911a on Sunday, December 13, 2020 9:15 PM

"New York - Chicago high speed rail" isn't people going from New York to Chicago.  It's people going to and from intermediate points.  If the service to intermediate points is attractive (i.e. beats driving time) people will ride.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, December 13, 2020 9:30 PM

cbq9911a
"New York - Chicago high speed rail" isn't people going from New York to Chicago.  It's people going to and from intermediate points. 

The problem is the intermediate points have to be on a direct route suitable for high speed, and not too close together, to have it be true HSR in the first place.

The traffic to/from intermediate points -- if not handled via the "Atlantic-Coast-Limited-in-reverse" model -- is best handled with slower-speed equipment that does not have the loss associated with multiple braking and more curve negotiation, with regional branches serving the online points.  This can feed the true HSR at its stops to get a least overall time without killing the end-to-end long-distance timing that all the money spent on an HSR line would require.

Or to put it another way, optimize the service and timing of the intermediate services to match the characteristics of uncompromised end-to-end HSR, rather than increasingly cripple it with "more" intermediate stops or routes skewed to accommodate them.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, December 13, 2020 9:31 PM

I think the intermediate city services would be jmportamt.  But if one could ride from CUS to NYP in 5-7 hours,  people would ride it. 

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