Keep in mind the railroads, at least on their better trains used dining cars and other services as a form of marketing to a targeted segment of infuencers, at least through the early 60s. Taking a loss was a business expense. That situation has never been the case for Amtrak.
Sure is nice that you have no concerns with Amtrak making hot food in its lounge cars. Sorry you have no interest in variety.
Overmod: Sir, I have been polite and civil, other than simply disagreeing with you. I see no reason to dip into snide personal remarks.
I have had better hot food in the lounge car than the hot dog and hamburger; shrimp and grits for example, I wish they still had that. As to variety, more variety is exactly what I am asking for in the cafe car. Sushi? Chili? Pea soup? Spam? Eggos? Pizza slices? Bring them on.
Connellsville is my test case. They do have Grubhub. And Grubhub says they have KFC, TacoBell, IHOP, ALso, Italian Oven, Fiesta Azteca, Smitty's Bar, Carson's Tavern, Wavie and Jane's, Kickstand Kitchen. Those last six might be fine places, but they mean nothing to me. The train could easily have tacos or boneless wings on board. IHOP? OK, I could get pancakes. Don't know what the other places have. Would Amtrak publiish a book of restaurants and their menus to have on the train for each station stop?
EnzoampsI have had better hot food in the lounge car than the hot dog and hamburger; shrimp and grits for example, I wish they still had that.
So do I. But that does not change the fact that they don't, and absent some Bellamy-like overnight change in the way everybody thinks about profitability, they probably never will again.
What we're discussing is, absent profitable operation of anything but 'hotel car' service quality, and perhaps not even that, how we can preserve better onboard dining. We've conclusively dismissed the idea of outsourcing any of the actual on-board food service; we've conclusively dismissed the idea of 'expert' crews running 'fast casual' food service of any meaningful type; Amtrak itself has largely conclusively decided luxury dining isn't going to make the Congressional margins. That makes some sort of take-out delivery about the only thing that can be made to work.
As to variety, more variety is exactly what I am asking for in the cafe car. Sushi? Chili? Pea soup? Spam? Eggos? Pizza slices? Bring them on.
All stocked via a commissary? Kept precisely where, and served precisely how?
Mind you, I completely agree, and in a more perfect world (including, imho, the more perfect world presaged by those Viewliner convection ovens) that's exactly what could be provided. Expand the idea very quickly to special-needs meal preparation, Kosher dishes, various kinds of vegetarian/paleo ... put the cook-to-order and then preserve department in the commissary or get a service like SkyChef set up to do as much of it as the unions would permit. ACY Tom could give us substantial guidance into what would, and wouldn't, be likely with the current employees and operating model.
There's also the range of special orders that could be made with simple materials on the train -- sous-vide portions of shrimp packed cold, and some reasonable quick grits, as an example that might resonate. Problem is, I'm not the one saying 'do them and see if we make the numbers' or 'this is OK by us employees', and in the absence of both training and good will/attitude anything involving careful prep and washup may involve more cost than even creative accounting can justify to a watchful bunch of Feds.
Connellsville is my test case. They do have Grubhub. And Grubhub says they have KFC, TacoBell, IHOP, ALso, Italian Oven, Fiesta Azteca, Smitty's Bar, Carson's Tavern, Wavie and Jane's, Kickstand Kitchen. Those last six might be fine places, but they mean nothing to me.
You're raising a valid point, and a further one in a couple of sentences:
Would Amtrak publiish a book of restaurants and their menus to have on the train for each station stop?
The quick answer to the question as asked is this: Amtrak no longer prints copies of their national schedules for reference. Doing updated print versions of something as labile as a range of 'participating establishments' across America is NOT something I see them doing, even as the kind of guide you find in motels for the 'local places that do delivery'.
Naturally all this would be in the app: you'd ask it for the next station's options (or those corresponding to a desired time, whatever is closest) and it would provide a list of options, perhaps formatted according to one of the food guides (with $$$, specials, regional delights, etc. Clicking on one of the choices would bring up menus, reviews, options, the ability to 'ping' someone at the restaurant to ask questions or make special order conditions ... it's just like the augmented-reality thermostat, depending only on the cleverness of the people writing and maintaining the app code. And there doesn't have to be just one app, just as Microsoft didn't have a short list of developers for the Windows UI.
Personally, I'd like to see simplified versions analogous to the Jitterbug cell phone for 'seniors', which would accommodate or 'walk through' getting an order right and handling the payment conditions in plain language. Not impossible to have outsourced 'operators' skilled in proper customer service to take these orders-from-the-train properly and then forward them to the relevant providers for fulfillment without mistake or misunderstanding. None of that is something likely for Amtrak lounge-car staff to specialize in; the point is that it is not anything that Amtrak lounge-car staff has to specialize in.
Keep in mind also that the whole question of providing on-board cooking and refrigeration 'service' for people to get their own food options self-heated is still open, and I think addressable by technical means. I've been in a number of 'service stops' and bus terminals that allow use of the microwave if you 'buy something there' -- restricting the "mess potential" by limiting heating time or power, or requiring only approved items, is 'better' than not having 'microwave' or 'oven privileges' at all. But it would require considerable negotiation with people not renowned for reasonableness to get 'allowed'.
IHOP? OK, I could get pancakes.
Have you actually BEEN in an IHOP? Unless they've really, really, really changed their menu lately, there's a whole lot more than 'pancakes' they can make and package for take-out, and a whole lot more they could do if inspired.
Exactly!!! BTW, I only used steak as an example because it was on both menus. I haven't had one in years. Don't like it.
Of course you could avoid all this confusion and hassle simply by flying from Toledo to Washington DC where you could get a hot meal then take the Metro or an Uber to Union Station where you could again get a hot meal and finish your trip to Rockville by a 30 minute commuter train ride on the Brunswick line. But then again I suppose it is more fun to figure out ways to make it more uncomfortable and much more of a hassle. Let's face it, the unions killed the dining car and they aren't coming back. The unions also killed the idea of out-sourcing food service when Amtrak tried that on the Empire Service between NYC and Albany. Congress also didn't help when they mandated break-even by the end of 2020. Stop crying about it because it ain't worth the hassle of getting Congress to change its mind or the union to back off their wage and benefit demands. So save yourself the hassle of the train and fly. You'll get there faster, more reliably and won't have to worry about where you'll get your next hot meal or the lack of variety in the lounge car. You might also save yourself a bit of money in the bargain.
runnerdude48Of course you could avoid all this confusion and hassle simply by flying from Toledo to Washington DC where you could get a hot meal then take the Metro or an Uber to Union Station where you could again get a hot meal and finish your trip to Rockville by a 30 minute commuter train ride on the Brunswick line. But then again I suppose it is more fun to figure out ways to make it more uncomfortable and much more of a hassle. Let's face it, the unions killed the dining car and they aren't coming back. The unions also killed the idea of out-sourcing food service when Amtrak tried that on the Empire Service between NYC and Albany. Congress also didn't help when they mandated break-even by the end of 2020. Stop crying about it because it ain't worth the hassle of getting Congress to change its mind or the union to back off their wage and benefit demands. So save yourself the hassle of the train and fly. You'll get there faster, more reliably and won't have to worry about where you'll get your next hot meal or the lack of variety in the lounge car. You might also save yourself a bit of money in the bargain.
Yep it is too expensive to pay people a wage that will let them LIVE their lives instead of groveling. Got to keep the slaves back on the plantation and under firm control.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
OK then I suppose I could save even more time by not going at all. I could do what my niece did from Oregon. She called us on the computer visual thing. Something like Skype.
I consider the train ride part of my vacation. Flying is a demeaning experience I have to endure before I get to my vacation. Try going to the cafe car on a plane. Try getting even a hot dog on a plane. I get to watch the mountain scenery close up. Ever try to use the restroom on a plane while the plane is still on the taxiway? If I want to sit with my wife, one of us will be in a aisle seat or a window seat, so extra charge for that. The train cost $260 bucks for two round trip tickets.
To fly I either go to BWI or DCA. The train dumps me out right in Rockville, five minutes from my destination. Not sure a BWI commuter train makes that simple, and surely DC National, er Reagan, all the way out there is a trek. Especially with two large heavy suitaces and our carry on grips. The extra charges for my luggage alone on the airline would probably cost more than my train ticket. On the train, my heavy bags are right next to the door of the car. And the porter will hand them down to me.
"Crying about it"? If no one speaks up, if no one expresses their desires, needs, impressions, then NOTHING will change.
It sounds like that, inspite of all the wonders of the train trip that you describe, you had a pretty bad trip. I like the Skype idea but no way am I going to sit overnight in coach for hours eating hot dogs when i can fly and be at my destination in a fraction of the time with a much better chance to be on time. Yes, you may get to see the scenery but, i have ridden the entire Amtrak system and except for a few of the western LD trains the scenery leaves much to be desired. Graffiti covered, abandoned factories and housing. As far as your luggage goes, that is your own fault. If you can't fit everything you need in a carry-on suitcase and a backpack you are taking too much. I used to take the train alot but as I get older I find them to be very uncomfortable and inconvenient. Now, except for the NEC, I fly or drive to wherever I need to go and enjoy it much more. And, I have never felt demeaned.
BaltACDYep it is too expensive to pay people a wage that will let them LIVE their lives instead of groveling. Got to keep the slaves back on the plantation and under firm control.
runnerdude48 BaltACD Yep it is too expensive to pay people a wage that will let them LIVE their lives instead of groveling. Got to keep the slaves back on the plantation and under firm control. Yep you can have overpaid servers and kitchen staff or you can have full service dining cars.
BaltACD Yep it is too expensive to pay people a wage that will let them LIVE their lives instead of groveling. Got to keep the slaves back on the plantation and under firm control.
Yep you can have overpaid servers and kitchen staff or you can have full service dining cars.
Sorry - we can't afford to pay you either and you can grovel at a food trough.
You want 'service' that is beneath human dignity.
According to Indeed.com and Glassdoor, the median yearly salary for an Amtrak attendant is about $50k + benefits. That's hardly minimum wage, nor should it be. But it's more than a lot of young people with bettet training and skill sets get in good restaurants.
charlie hebdoAs another poster stated, I seriously doubt if any fast food establishment or restaurant is going to offer delivery by Uber Eats or another service to "somewhere on the platform" for an Amtrak train arrival. Why? The arrival times are highly unreliable. Even if "on-time" that means within 15 minutes of the advertised.
Little of the above is really an obstacle. First the delivery services I use could really care less if I am there or not, they get paid in full with the tip if I am not there....they are paid regardless. Secondly, they will text or call if I am not there for delivery and ask instructions (if it is a hotel most call while they are in the car approaching the hotel), it is understood they do not have to stand there like an automatron holding my order in the lobby until I show up they only have to stick around a few min.
In case of the hotel delivery the front desk or concierge will take the order delivery in the case I do not make it to the lobby in time and the delivery person is sometimes long gone before the elevator arrives in the Lobby. Have not tried Amtrak yet but if it is a staffed station, I would imagine their guest services would handle it similarly (something to find out I guess).
As for the train being late to the station, I would not call in the order unless the train was at the station or a no brainer the train would be at the station at the time of delivery. Not a problem with any of the Texas Eagles I have personally ridden only one or two have been late in like the last 10 years or so.
charlie hebdoAccording to Indeed.com and Glassdoor, the median yearly salary for an Amtrak attendant is about $50k + benefits. That's hardly minimum wage, nor should it be. But it's more than a lot of young people with bettet training and skill sets get in good restaurants.
If I am not mistaken the Alaska Railroad pays for or subsidizes room and board and has their own apartment complex dock side for passenger service employees which they they recruit from across the United States. At least they did a few years ago when I got curious how exactly they worked seasonal employment and looked.
So while I understand some peoples view on being underpaid.....sometimes being underpaid means being compensated more. I am underpaid by at least 15-20k in the job I hold now by choice. However when you count the health plan, retirement pension and the travel perks, I am probably getting compensated fairly.
Way back in 1982 when I enlisted in the Army there was a Private in my same cohort that negotiated past tuition repayment of loans, plus the full army college fund for future education, plus rank for the college he had already. Overall he was getting compensated as a Private slightly above what a Lieutenant with a college education would have been paid. The guy was smart and learned all the incentive programs before signing the contract. Even more of that going on in the Modern Army of today. Not unheard of for a Special Forces Soldier to get $125,000 to $150,000 cash bonus.....tax free for enlisting again. It happens just does not happen all the time, only in times of real need.
Delivery to a hotel is obviously very different than delivery to a train arrival. Many Amtrak stations are not continuously staffed and it is doubtful they would accept a delivery to pass on to a train passenger. Since a passenger ordering food could dispute the charge for having never received it, many restaurants would choose not to accept such minor business. How long is the Eagle's typical dwell time in a station? Long enough to order food on or shortly prior to arrival, have it prepared and then delivered? Additionally, based on the Eagle's dismal on-time record, you are a lucky person to have been on-time so often.
Runnerdude - clearly you just intend to belitttle my thoughts, go ahead. But I reported an unusual incident whwich overall was handled fairly well by Amtrak. The discussion of food is an ongoing thing in this arena. As to graffiti covered factories, perhaps you were asleep while crossing the Appalachians. I see beautiful rivers, and I see verdant mountainsides. I see small towns, farm fields, and animals. I see one of the most photographed scenes in railroading, Harpers Ferry, WV. Farther down I know the land well, I can spot my grandmothers house up the hill in Brunswick, I see the grand old station in Point of Rocks. And when I pass the county fairgrounds in Gaithersburg, I am a couple minutes from Rockville. So , no, I did not have a bad trip at all. I had an unusual experience during the trip, and expresssed improvements I'd like in the food area, but the trip? Fine by me.
If you like to fly, fine, others hate it. I find it demeaning to have to take off my belt and shoes at the airporrt, buy special small packages of toiletries, and limited food items. I have to arrive two hours ahead of my flight and stand in long lines. I then am wedged into tiny seating, praying the person in front of me doesn't recline his seat. As to driving, I did that in my younger days, but I have no desire to sit in the car for ten hours looking at the rear end of semi truck after semi truck.
As to my baggage, well, sorry. I had some items for my family - large heavy books of old family photos and other records. And some other things. Should I just tell them to forget it? Or should I spend a hundred bucks to ship them? I will just take them on the train, thank you. As to what I needed to wear and live on for the trip, yes, my carry on grip would suffice.
It's fine if you like riding LD overnight trains. However, only a miniscule portion of the public chooses to do so. Most fly or drive or use buses. I wonder if you would choose the train if your ticket covered above rails costs?
does the fare you pay for your airline ticket cover all costs in providing the service?
daveklepper does the fare you pay for your airline ticket cover all costs in providing the service?
I referred above to the above the rail costs, i.e., direct operating costs. These cost don't include depreciation, interest, overhead, rent to host railroad, etc.
For airlines, your ticket and those of other passengers may or may not cover the direct operating costs of a specific flight. But overall, most airlines show a surplus on operations without a direct subsidy.
charlie hebdo daveklepper does the fare you pay for your airline ticket cover all costs in providing the service? I referred above to the above the rail costs, i.e., direct operating costs. These cost don't include depreciation, interest, overhead, rent to host railroad, etc. For airlines, your ticket and those of other passengers may or may not cover the direct operating costs of a specific flight. But overall, most airlines show a surplus on operations without a direct subsidy.
Airlines don't pay the full costs of the terminals they use or the traffic control system that keeps them from running into each other.
BaltACD charlie hebdo daveklepper does the fare you pay for your airline ticket cover all costs in providing the service? I referred above to the above the rail costs, i.e., direct operating costs. These cost don't include depreciation, interest, overhead, rent to host railroad, etc. For airlines, your ticket and those of other passengers may or may not cover the direct operating costs of a specific flight. But overall, most airlines show a surplus on operations without a direct subsidy. Airlines don't pay the full costs of the terminals they use or the traffic control system that keeps them from running into each other.
I'm not sure if those are direct operating costs. In any case, neither you or I have any evidence that supports or refutes your contention. I do know that in addition to airfare, each ticket separately includes a 7.5% federal excise tax, a $4.00 segment fee and a $5.50 security fee per one way flight. Those taxes/fees likely cover some/much/all of the costs of the airline portion for operation of a safe air system, which also is used by a lot of private airplanes. The airlines also pay terminal fees.
The Air Carriers have not built, with their own money, the basic terminals and control systems required to perform their business functions.
With excise taxes and other 'fees' paid, we have no idea what percentage of the true costs of the services being provided for. Railroads have paid for their rights of way, terminals and control systems all out of their own pockets and paid taxes upon the improved values of all those things.
Perhaps you are confused? We were discussing Amtrak, the recipient of billions of dollars in subsidies, not the freight railroads, some of which received free land and construction subsidies which might be trillions in today's dollars.
The airlines pay a lot for terminal use. Amtrak does not pay any taxes, but the airlines pay millions in various taxes.
In 2018, O'hare airport had operating expenses of about $340 million, the largest amount being for labor. Operating expenses as well as interest and principal retirement on the construction bonds are NOT paid by City of Chicago. Rather, the various fees paid by users cover this.
charlie hebdoPerhaps you are confused? We were discussing Amtrak, the recipient of billions of dollars in subsidies, not the freight railroads, some of which received free land and construction subsidies which might be trillions in today's dollars. The airlines pays lot for terminal use. Amtrak does not pay any taxes, but the airlines pay millions in various taxes.
The airlines pays lot for terminal use. Amtrak does not pay any taxes, but the airlines pay millions in various taxes.
Amtrak and it's issues cannot be divorced from the rail industry as a whole or from the PRR/NH/PC rights of way and their problems that Amtrak inherited when those lines were turned over to Amtrak.
BaltACD Airlines don't pay the full costs of the traffic control system that keeps them from running into each other.
Airlines don't pay the full costs of the traffic control system that keeps them from running into each other.
Nor should they, since they are not the only users of the ATC system.
https://www.macon.com/opinion/readers-opinion/article184421938.html
"high-end private aircraft account for 10 percent of the cost of our nation’s air traffic control system, for example, corporate and private jet owners contribute less than 1 percent toward the FAA’s Trust Fund in the form of a relatively insignificant fuel tax.
With private plane owners contributing so little, who picks up the difference? A look at your last airfare ticket receipt will give you the answer. All commercial airline passengers pay a 7.5 percent excise tax and a $4.10 fee on every plane fare — charges that private jet owners don’t have to pay. These taxes and fees go to the Airport and Airway Trust Fund, which finances the FAA and pays for air traffic control operations.
It is these and other airline fees and taxes that provided $15 billion of the FAA’s $16.4 billion total budget this past fiscal year. Because of their exemptions, corporate and private jet owners contribute just $179 million to the FAA for using the exact same air traffic control resources. That’s less than 1 percent of all aviation taxes, even though 10 percent of all ATC costs are driven by high-performance private and business aircraft.
To better understand the disparity, let’s imagine two flights — one a commercial passenger plane and the other a corporate business jet — taking off from Nashville and heading to Philadelphia. A recent analysis by Bloomberg News found that the commercial flight would typically pay more than $2,000 in taxes and fees while the corporate jet flying the exact same route would only pay about $50 in fuel taxes. Even though each utilized the exact same air traffic control resources, private jet passengers pay just a fraction of the cost for the services."
The above quote only deals with private use of the ATC system, and does not touch on the militarys use of it. They do not pay a dime, and use the ATC resources as well.
An "expensive model collector"
BaltACD charlie hebdo Perhaps you are confused? We were discussing Amtrak, the recipient of billions of dollars in subsidies, not the freight railroads, some of which received free land and construction subsidies which might be trillions in today's dollars. The airlines pays lot for terminal use. Amtrak does not pay any taxes, but the airlines pay millions in various taxes. Amtrak and it's issues cannot be divorced from the rail industry as a whole or from the PRR/NH/PC rights of way and their problems that Amtrak inherited when those lines were turned over to Amtrak.
charlie hebdo Perhaps you are confused? We were discussing Amtrak, the recipient of billions of dollars in subsidies, not the freight railroads, some of which received free land and construction subsidies which might be trillions in today's dollars. The airlines pays lot for terminal use. Amtrak does not pay any taxes, but the airlines pay millions in various taxes.
That's a pretty weak statement but when you can't respond factually, it's about all you can do. . The connections are tenuous at best. NH? Are you kidding?
charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo Perhaps you are confused? We were discussing Amtrak, the recipient of billions of dollars in subsidies, not the freight railroads, some of which received free land and construction subsidies which might be trillions in today's dollars. The airlines pays lot for terminal use. Amtrak does not pay any taxes, but the airlines pay millions in various taxes. Amtrak and it's issues cannot be divorced from the rail industry as a whole or from the PRR/NH/PC rights of way and their problems that Amtrak inherited when those lines were turned over to Amtrak. That's a pretty weak statement but when you can't respond factually, it's about all you can do. . The connections are tenuous at best. NH? Are you kidding?
no more than you. Were the airlines paying the full costs of the actual facilities and controls that they require, no one would be able to afford to fly; of course then we could eliminate the costs of TSA.
When someone really has no facts, they resort to just tossing out opinions with nothing to back them up. When you have no data, you toss out some hackneyed phrase about statistics or accountants. In either case, you presented zero evidence to support your opinion.
Perhaps when rail collisions occur, how would you like it if folks glibly state, as though it were a fact, that it must have been caused by incompetent dispatcher error?
charlie hebdoWhen someone really has no facts, they resort to just tossing out opinions with nothing to back them up. When you have no data, you toss out some hackneyed phrase about statistics or accountants. In either case, you presented zero evidence to support your opinion. Perhaps when rail collisions occur, how would you like it if folks glibly state, as though it were a fact, that it must have been caused by incompetent dispatcher error?
They already do - when you have a paper thin skin it may affect you - if you have a career in railroading you know when BS is BS and let the idiots have their opionions. I realize you feel what I am saying is idiotic - I don't have access to the real facts and neither do you any beyond that I could give two sheets of toilet paper for your opionions, as I am certain that you feel about mine.
BaltACD charlie hebdo When someone really has no facts, they resort to just tossing out opinions with nothing to back them up. When you have no data, you toss out some hackneyed phrase about statistics or accountants. In either case, you presented zero evidence to support your opinion. Perhaps when rail collisions occur, how would you like it if folks glibly state, as though it were a fact, that it must have been caused by incompetent dispatcher error? They already do - when you have a paper thin skin it may affect you - if you have a career in railroading you know when BS is BS and let the idiots have their opionions. I realize you feel what I am saying is idiotic - I don't have access to the real facts and neither do you any beyond that I could give two sheets of toilet paper for your opionions, as I am certain that you feel about mine.
charlie hebdo When someone really has no facts, they resort to just tossing out opinions with nothing to back them up. When you have no data, you toss out some hackneyed phrase about statistics or accountants. In either case, you presented zero evidence to support your opinion. Perhaps when rail collisions occur, how would you like it if folks glibly state, as though it were a fact, that it must have been caused by incompetent dispatcher error?
QED.
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