A question that occurs to me, if PRR sends 7 sleepers to the west coast one day, and 7 more the next, it's going to be several days before they get that equipment back, (poor utilization) and what efforts are made to prevent an empty back haul? Does PRR need to hire a passenger marketing staff for each west coast terminal to market return trips?
Or was there a TTX-like car pool that all the participants shared?
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Convicted OneA question that occurs to me, if PRR sends 7 sleepers to the west coast one day, and 7 more the next, it's going to be several days before they get that equipment back, (poor utilization) and what efforts are made to prevent an empty back haul? Does PRR need to hire a passenger marketing staff for each west coast terminal to market return trips? Or was there a TTX-like car pool that all the participants shared?
I feel certain the 'car lines' as Pullman called them had traffic in both directions - not necessarily equal traffic patterns, but traffic never the less. Pullman Company was the 'TTX like car pool' operator. That I am aware of, there were no coaches that were used in interline services.
The car allocations would be based upon the trip durations. Cars going off line would have their destinations figured into the number of cars required to provide the required level of service - be that service daily or some other frequency.
The New York-Chicago trains normally required two sets of equipment to protect service. New York-St. Louis normally required three sets of equipment.
In the day, the big carriers generally had passenger (and freight) offices in all major cities in the country to seek out all the available business.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thanks for that. I guess that I really never knew enough to appreciate that Pullman Company, Pullman Inc., and Pullman Standard were distinct entities.
If you look at lists of cars owned by the various roads, you will find that cars were built for interline service and were painted with the colors of one road--and the letterboards had the names of other roads on them. It was not only for interline east-west traffic, but also the interline New York-Florida traffic and even the Chicago-Florida traffic. The City of Miami had ACL, CG, and FEC cars as well as IC cars--and all were painted in IC colors. Even the Seminole was so made up.
And, I have ridden in one particular purple RF&P car on the Southern and on the SAL.
Johnny
In 1967, TRAINS had a pictorial article "A Twist on Tuscan Red" that explored this situation with PRR Pullmans.
Duplicate.
charlie hebdoI think there was a C&NW sleeper that was seasonally loaned and repainted for use on IC trains to Florida.
If I'm not mistaken, we had a fairly recent thread on this general subject that involved 'seasonal' repainting of some IC cars for Florida service.
Which were the Chicago-to-Florida trains that had distinctive liveries?
charlie hebdoA passenger line missing Pittsburgh entirely would seems to be a nonstarter.
This was in the era that Pittsburgh constituted an industrial bottleneck and major pollution source -- probably something that the fast first-class long-distance trains betwee major population centers would not miss by missing. I would point out that Philadelphia, a far more important city, was only 'served' by these trains at pathetic North Philadelphia, scarcely either a terminal or a neighborhood representing a Major Metropolitan Traffic Point.
The Sam Rea line obviously wasn't a replacement for PRR to Pittsburgh, or even all the passenger traffic from 'points east' through to Chicago or St. Louis. It's a bypass allowing much higher speed... higher speed not particularly useful for going either from Chicago or New York to Pittsburgh ... and further distinguished by the relative impossibility (then, as now) of constructing a high-speed route that goes through Pittsburgh itself.
It was basically designed as a passenger, mail, and express line, with dramatically limited curvature, rather than the kind of low-grade line that the Atglen and Susquehanna was, and it remains an open question how much of the through freight service out of, say, Enola might have been directed had the line been built as described -- my suspicion is that it would have been built initially as two tracks and operated mostly as a one-speed railroad, meaning only fast freight and M&E that could co-exist in bridge traffic with the faster passenger trains.
Although I know you don't like speculation, the effect on the full electrification program west of Harrisburg would almost certainly have been greatly facilitated in the years after demonstration of 428A-motored AC locomotives; the 1943 proposal is well worth considering in this light. This part of the service would, more or less at a stroke, permit even greater speed increase and time reduction that AC electrification between New York and Washington did, with all the 'improvements' and lessons learned during the 1930s experience with construction being available. The question would then be how far west the electrification would actually be continued ... or how much of it would be recognized as functionally obsolescent with the advent of more and more reliable (or perhaps less and less flaky is a better term) diesel power vs. the likely steam power prior to that (almost certainly either duplexes or turbines)
Convicted One Thanks for that. I guess that I really never knew enough to appreciate that Pullman Company, Pullman Inc., and Pullman Standard were distinct entities.
As to the Chicago-Florida streamliners, the South Wind was a PRR train, and the Dixie Flagler was an FEC train. Over the years, these two had equipment from other roads, and the livery may have been mixed. I never saw the Dixie Flagler or its successor (I did see its observatio--a stainless steel car--as it backed into Chattanooga one morning in 1956.
The only time I rode Pullman (1966) on the Seminole, I rode in an UP 6-6-4 (American Sailor) with upper berth windows, from North Cairo to Birmingham. I did not notice if it was repainted for IC service. I think the IC was using its 6-6-4 cars to carry troops down to Jackson, Mississippi on the Panama Limited. on there way to camp by way of Shreveport (they rode coach west of Jackson).
Convicted One A question that occurs to me, if PRR sends 7 sleepers to the west coast one day, and 7 more the next, it's going to be several days before they get that equipment back, (poor utilization) and what efforts are made to prevent an empty back haul? Does PRR need to hire a passenger marketing staff for each west coast terminal to market return trips? Or was there a TTX-like car pool that all the participants shared?
Overmod charlie hebdo I think there was a C&NW sleeper that was seasonally loaned and repainted for use on IC trains to Florida. If I'm not mistaken, we had a fairly recent thread on this general subject that involved 'seasonal' repainting of some IC cars for Florida service. Which were the Chicago-to-Florida trains that had distinctive liveries?
charlie hebdo I think there was a C&NW sleeper that was seasonally loaned and repainted for use on IC trains to Florida.
On the IC, you had the City of Miami and the Seminole. The other routes (PRR, C&EI, NYC) tended to have a potpourri of liveries as I recall from readings.
On your other post, what if's are fine when based on some realistic scenarios, as the Rea plan was. But missing Pittsburgh would seem to eliminate a decent-sized population center en route. At least North Philly was in Philadelphia with easy connections back then to center city and elsewhere. Now...? Probably not.
In 1953, the Los Angeles Limited still had a Minneapolis-Los Angeles car--C&NW Minneapolis-Omaha, and, of course, UP Omaha-Los Angeles.
I think there was a C&NW sleeper that was seasonally loaned and repainted for use on IC trains to Florida.
Slight correction. The C&NW leased two Imperial series 4-4-2 cars (Imperial Mark and Imperial Leaf) to the IC for winter trains starting in the 1960s. They remained in IC brown and orange year-round with Pullman on the letterboard and a C&NW on each end through scrapping. I used to see them sitting in the dead yard on my commute.
As an aside footnote, Trains Magazine offers a video of Alistaire Cooke's 50's TV Show Omnibus which highlights the operation of the 20th Century Limited and Grand Central Station. You can plainly see a Santa Fe lightweight stainless steel car in the consist of the Century as the camera goes by.
DeggestyOriginally, they were one company--but were separated about 1948, the railroads took possession of the cars, and leased them to the Pullman Company, who staffed them
Hopefully I'm not going into too fine of detail with the following questions, but how was the passenger dollar split here?
I envision the railroad selling a trip up front.... Lets say Santa Fe sells a trip from Los Angeles to New York City....sleeper all the way.... exchanges in Chicago with New York Central.
So they pay Pullman for "services in route" out of the fare collected, they also pay New York Central to forward the car to New York City, or does New York Central get a percentage of the fare?
And, on top of all that, Pullman pays Santa Fe to lease the car they are operating in? Is that lease short term (by the trip) or more along the lines of a sale/leaseback where the cars are leased long term regardless if they move or not?
Then of course, there are car repair costs to have to be delt with
Seems like a lot of the fare is getting shuffled back and forth.
Convicted One Deggesty Originally, they were one company--but were separated about 1948, the railroads took possession of the cars, and leased them to the Pullman Company, who staffed them Hopefully I'm not goiong into too fine of detail with the following questions, but how was the passenger dollar split here? I envision the railroad selling a trip up front.... Lets say Santa Fe sells a trip from Los Angeles to New York City....sleeper all the way.... exchanges in Chicago with New York Central. So they pay Pullman for "services in route" out of the fare collected, they also pay New York Central to forward the car to New York City, or does New York Central get a percentage of the fare? And, on top of all that, Pullman pays Santa Fe to lease the car they are operating in? Is that lease short term (by the trip) or more along the lines of a sale/leaseback where the cars are leased long term regardless if they move or not? Then of course, there are car repair costs to have to be delt with Seems like a lot of the fare is getting shuffled back and forth.
Deggesty Originally, they were one company--but were separated about 1948, the railroads took possession of the cars, and leased them to the Pullman Company, who staffed them
Hopefully I'm not goiong into too fine of detail with the following questions, but how was the passenger dollar split here?
Presuming that a through rate was established - it would get split between the carriers based on the mileage each carrier represents of the entire route.
Car owners get hit with the costs of maintenance in accordance with AAR car repair rules.
The Pullman fare, goes entirely to Pullman. I don't know the exact arrangements for the fare between Pullman and the carriers involved.
Pullman and its operations is a full length novel all by itself.
When you traveled Pullman, you bought two tickets--one for transportation, and one for space. If there were more than one Pullman car in a train, there was a Pullman conductor, and he and the railroad conductor came through the Pullmans together; you handed your tramsportation ticket to the railroad conductor, and you handed your space ticket to the Pullman conductor. I f there were only one Pullman in the consist, it had a porter in charge, who was respondsble diresctly to the Pullman company.
On my last trip by Pullman (in December of 1968), from Washington to Birmingham via Richmond, my mother and I shared a bedroom. When the RF&P conductor and Pullman conductor came to our room, I said, "Here's our space" as I handed the Pullman ticket to the Pullman conductor, and, as I handed my rail ticket to t=conductor, saying, "Here's my transportation, and my mpther has her transportation (which was a pass; my father worked for the ACL for many years).
What moneys exchanged hands betwen Pullman and the railroads, I have no idea.
After 12/31/1968, the railroads were responsible for the operation of the sleeping cars, most of tthose space tickets that I used were on flimsey white paper
Here's a short film from the 50's showing that "two-ticket" procedure Johnny described. About five minutes (or so) in.
A pretty good demonstration of "what was" at any rate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRVEOZphmDQ
Flintlock76 Here's a short film from the 50's showing that "two-ticket" procedure Johnny described. About five minutes (or so) in. A pretty good demonstration of "what was" at any rate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRVEOZphmDQ
Amtrak will not allow such a trip for an unaccompanied minor under 16 years of age, for such overnight trips are forbidden. The boy was put on the train amd eceived by an adult.
The film calls the fireman "the engineer's helper."
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