Who even knew this was a business on the great lakes but apparently the port is attempting to become a Cruise Ship terminal for the Great Lakes and is working with several Cruise ship companies to accomplish that. They have to build a bigger dock for the larger ships and are talking about one near the Komutsu Mining Corp HQ...........which is fairly close but not within walking distance of the Amtrak Depot. It is about where the former cutover is for the ex-C&NW lakefront line. So a relatively short taxi cab ride away. However the developers are eyeing Milwaukees Mitchell Field Airport as the transportation medium to and from the Cruise Ship terminal (vs Amtrak).......unfortunately, seems again Amtrak is overlooked. An except from the Milwaukee Business Journal article is reproduced below:
"Port Milwaukee anticipates more than 10 cruise ship visits to Milwaukee in 2019, a significant uptick in activity from years previous, Port Milwaukee executive director Adam Schlicht said.
Cruise lines currently visiting Milwaukee include Rhode Island-based Blount Small Ship Adventures, Connecticut-based Pearl Seas Cruises and French cruise company Ponant.
To sustain and increase cruise ship traffic in Milwaukee, Port Milwaukee recently created the Milwaukee Cruise Collaborative, a regional partnership with several tourism and community partners that includes Visit Milwaukee, Milwaukee Downtown, Discovery World, Lake Express, Milwaukee Mitchell International Airport and the Saint Lawrence Seaway Development Corp. The MCC is just one of the ways Port Milwaukee is boosting economic activity and traffic at the port.
The port is also working to reestablish intermodal container service at the port..."
Wow, looks like the French Cruise Line is going to skip Chicago all together....
https://us.ponant.com/cruises/north-america-great-lakes-of-north-america-c120919-4
Pearl Seas Cruises, their ships look smaller than the above French company.
https://www.pearlseascruises.com/cruises/great-lakes/great-lakes-and-georgian-bay
If they are really serious about growing any business in that area, the very first thing that needs to be done is address the issue of the nearby water treatment facility.
I used to work in that area, and there is a very good reason we knicknamed the area "Stink Valley".
CMStPnP Who even knew this was a business on the great lakes but apparently the port is attempting to become a Cruise Ship terminal for the Great Lakes and is working with several Cruise ship companies to accomplish that. They have to build a bigger dock for the larger ships and are talking about one near the Komutsu Mining Corp HQ...........which is fairly close but not within walking distance of the Amtrak Depot. It is about where the former cutover is for the ex-C&NW lakefront line. So a relatively short taxi cab ride away. However the developers are eyeing Milwaukees Mitchell Field Airport as the transportation medium to and from the Cruise Ship terminal (vs Amtrak).......unfortunately, seems again Amtrak is overlooked. An except from the Milwaukee Business Journal article is reproduced below: "Port Milwaukee anticipates more than 10 cruise ship visits to Milwaukee in 2019, a significant uptick in activity from years previous, Port Milwaukee executive director Adam Schlicht said. Cruise lines currently visiting Milwaukee include Rhode Island-based Blount Small Ship Adventures, Connecticut-based Pearl Seas Cruises and French cruise company Ponant. To sustain and increase cruise ship traffic in Milwaukee, Port Milwaukee recently created the Milwaukee Cruise Collaborative, a regional partnership with several tourism and community partners that includes Visit Milwaukee, Milwaukee Downtown, Discovery World, Lake Express, Milwaukee Mitchell International Airport and the Saint Lawrence Seaway Development Corp. The MCC is just one of the ways Port Milwaukee is boosting economic activity and traffic at the port. The port is also working to reestablish intermodal container service at the port..." Wow, looks like the French Cruise Line is going to skip Chicago all together.... https://us.ponant.com/cruises/north-america-great-lakes-of-north-america-c120919-4 Pearl Seas Cruises, their ships look smaller than the above French company. https://www.pearlseascruises.com/cruises/great-lakes/great-lakes-and-georgian-bay
BackshopWhat does Amtrak have to do with this. After a cruise, people go to the airport to fly home. Same thing before, they fly in for the cruise. Blount is really a non-starter for business, since their ships have less than 90 passengers. The French line seems to be concentrating on foreign visitors, so the airport makes sense.
Your kidding right? Railroads have historically had a cross marketing relationship with overseas cruise lines back when they were in the golden years of rail passenger travel. Amtrak is not exactly a model of normalcy so we can skip that example.
However and conversely, I always thought it was routine of most cruise ship lines to sell onshore excursions (such as the French line does). It is part of their money making operation. Cruise ship lines do sell cruise rail packages when scenary is involved or it provides kind of an adventure side trip such as:
1. Panama Canal Railway Passenger Service.
2. Alaska Railway Passenger Service.
3. Skagway Alaska Rail Service.
Just three examples. I might add the Amtrak trip across Wisconsin to Saint Paul is quite scenic in the fall between Portage and the Twin Cities and Milwaukee is also a small base for small number of private railway cars. The French line is pretty pricey at $7500 for their basic cabin for an 11 day cruise. Thats more than CUNARD charges for the Queen Mary II for similar class of cabin and similar duration.
Now I thought also conversely that Amtrak has a subsidiary called "Amtrak Vacation Packages" that might also sell off train excursions as well. I am not sure if they sell cruise and rail packages. I think the Rocky Mountaineer does as well.
I have met some passengers on the "Empire Builder" who were connecting at Seattle with an Alaska cruise.
CMStPnP Your kidding right? Railroads have historically had a cross marketing relationship with overseas cruise lines back when they were in the golden years of rail passenger travel. Amtrak is not exactly a model of normalcy so we can skip that example. However and conversely, I always thought it was routine of most cruise ship lines to sell onshore excursions (such as the French line does). It is part of their money making operation. Cruise ship lines do sell cruise rail packages when scenary is involved or it provides kind of an adventure side trip such as: 1. Panama Canal Railway Passenger Service. 2. Alaska Railway Passenger Service. 3. Skagway Alaska Rail Service. Just three examples. I might add the Amtrak trip across Wisconsin to Saint Paul is quite scenic in the fall between Portage and the Twin Cities and Milwaukee is also a small base for small number of private railway cars. The French line is pretty pricey at $7500 for their basic cabin for an 11 day cruise. Thats more than CUNARD charges for the Queen Mary II for similar class of cabin and similar duration. Now I thought also conversely that Amtrak has a subsidiary called "Amtrak Vacation Packages" that might also sell off train excursions as well. I am not sure if they sell cruise and rail packages. I think the Rocky Mountaineer does as well.
BackshopWhat does any of that have to do with Milwaukee? Most port calls are 8-10 hours. That means that excursions aren't more than 6-7 hours.
Ok, so you didn't even read the cruise details before commenting. Milwaukee is actually the end of the trip, they have a lot more than a few hours and there is plenty the cruise ship line could tack onto the end of the trip to increase the length and/or make more money.
Further have you looked at the market here? This is not a regular cruise ship it is in fact a large yacht and they are selling the trip as a premium yacht experience. They do not need critical mass to make a profit and I would argue that a regular sized ship doesn't need critical mass with an onshore excursion to make money. On some they only need maybe 15-20 people. These are not regular CARNIVAL CRUISE LINE passengers looking to scrimp here and there to save money on the cruise while humming along with Cathy Lee Crosby.
They are paying a substantial premium to take this trip. The Queen Mary 2 is not your regular cruise ship either it is more expensive than most and people that choose Cunard are not on the ship for a ferris wheel or rip line ride or whatever cheap stupid thrill the lessor lines sell to attract families. I think you missed a lot with whatever reading you have done here. Plenty of opportunity.
Additionally they intend to expand the locks and if that happens it would probably lead to larger vessels carrying more passengers. Regardless of the size of the vessel the market is expanding not static. Reading carefully you'll see that this French line has not been in the Great Lakes cruise business for very long it is a new entrant.........thats why they only have two cruises. The cruise to Milwaukee is a first. Maybe they breath deeply and as zardoz implies get offended at the smell.........maybe not if they have been to Paris.
Yes, I did read the cruise line website. I wasn't talking about the cruise line needing critical mass, I was talking about any company running the shore excursions. Here's a hint...cruise lines don't usually run their own shore excursions, they contract with local tour companies. This the French company's first year but there have been other companies in the last 20. Some are still going but others gave up.
Don't hold your breath for the St Lawrence Seaway and Welland Canal to have the size of the locks increased. We'll both be long dead (I'm 59) before it happens. The US has been trying for years just to get the funds to build ONE 1000ft lock at the Soo to take some of the pressure off of the Poe. The entire Canadian shipping fleet is predicated on a +/- 730ft freighter. The US has 1000ft ones because they have no need to venture into Lake Ontario. The passengers disembarking in Milwaukee will want to either get on a plane to go home (Mitchell Field) or get to Chicago as quickly as possible. Any tours would be by bus.
BackshopYes, I did read the cruise line website. I wasn't talking about the cruise line needing critical mass, I was talking about any company running the shore excursions. Here's a hint...cruise lines don't usually run their own shore excursions, they contract with local tour companies. This the French company's first year but there have been other companies in the last 20. Some are still going but others gave up.
Ok so your looking at this too narrowly or haven't really researched this to see the market and we disagree on this point. Hapag-Lloyd will launch a new ship in 2019 called the Hansetic Inspiration offering cruises in English and German. They have one Great Lakes cruise booked and also have expressed an interest in Milwaukee. Their offshore excursions include pre and post cruise see link below. They also allow the client to customize an off shore excursion via their concierge. So I think your strict confines of an offshore excursion are dated or again modeled after the carriers out of Miami that are geared more for the mass market and families vs the niche cruise.
https://www.hl-cruises.com/cruise-with-us/cruise-extras/pre-post-cruise-programmes
In regards to Lock Expansion, they can also build new Cruise ships that fit within the existing locks which it seems like they are doing now. It's not the end of the market if they do not expand the locks.
Viking Cruise Lines is another line eyeing the Great Lakes but I am not sure if they are in already or are still making a decision.
CMStPnP Ok so your looking at this too narrowly or haven't really researched this to see the market and we disagree on this point. Hapag-Lloyd will launch a new ship in 2019 called the Hansetic Inspiration offering cruises in English and German. They have one Great Lakes cruise booked and also have expressed an interest in Milwaukee. Their offshore excursions include pre and post cruise see link below. They also allow the client to customize an off shore excursion via their concierge. So I think your strict confines of an offshore excursion are dated or again modeled after the carriers out of Miami that are geared more for the mass market and families vs the niche cruise. https://www.hl-cruises.com/cruise-with-us/cruise-extras/pre-post-cruise-programmes In regards to Lock Expansion, they can also build new Cruise ships that fit within the existing locks which it seems like they are doing now. It's not the end of the market if they do not expand the locks. Viking Cruise Lines is another line eyeing the Great Lakes but I am not sure if they are in already or are still making a decision.
You obviously didn't read (or comprehend) my prior posts because your comments about me only knowing about "Miami based" cruises is entirely off the mark. I've never been on a Caribbean cruise and never will. I've been to Alaska, the Baltic, Norway, Austalia & New Zealand and will go from Amsterdam to Rome next month. My going on the WP&Y and Flam railways should have been your first clue. You can keep thinking that everyone wants to ride Amtrak but that's just personal mindgames. There's no scenery anywhere near Milwaukee to make a train excursion worthwhile.
Backshopone of the Viking ships can fit through the St Lawrence Seaway.
They have not entered the market yet. So it stands to reason they do not have the capable ships yet.
BackshopYou can keep thinking that everyone wants to ride Amtrak but that's just personal mindgames.
Oh I am sure I never said "everyone", that was your assertion repeatedly that a whole mass of people have to be interested to make an offshore excursion on what amounts to a niche cruise viable. I just threw the BS flag on it. In fact I have run into more than one European riding Amtrak on a rail pass despite the fact that their trains are percieved better than ours, they view things a little differently in the converse.
BackshopThere's no scenery anywhere near Milwaukee to make a train excursion worthwhile.
Again limited view and your incorrect. It's only 2 hours, riding the Empire Builder West of Milwaukee gets you into a fairly scenic area in about 2 hours or less and it only gets better as you approach LaCrosse. Though one could argue you don't even have to wait that long less than 40 min into the trip your in the Lake Country region of Waukesha county which offers a view of more than one inland lake. Also, is the French ship traversing scenic areas? Not necessarily, it's on a fall foilage cruise.
CMStPnP Backshop one of the Viking ships can fit through the St Lawrence Seaway. They have not entered the market yet. So it stands to reason they do not have the ships yet. Backshop You can keep thinking that everyone wants to ride Amtrak but that's just personal mindgames. Oh I am sure I never said that and limited view again. Backshop There's no scenery anywhere near Milwaukee to make a train excursion worthwhile. Again limited view and your incorrect. It's only 2 hours, riding the Empire Builder West of Milwaukee gets you into a fairly scenic area in about 2 hours or less and it only gets better as you approach LaCrosse. Though one could argue you don't even have to wait that long less than 40 min into the trip your in the Lake Country region of Waukesha county which offers a view of more than one inland lake.
Backshop one of the Viking ships can fit through the St Lawrence Seaway.
They have not entered the market yet. So it stands to reason they do not have the ships yet.
Backshop You can keep thinking that everyone wants to ride Amtrak but that's just personal mindgames.
Oh I am sure I never said that and limited view again.
Backshop There's no scenery anywhere near Milwaukee to make a train excursion worthwhile.
Again limited view and your incorrect. It's only 2 hours, riding the Empire Builder West of Milwaukee gets you into a fairly scenic area in about 2 hours or less and it only gets better as you approach LaCrosse. Though one could argue you don't even have to wait that long less than 40 min into the trip your in the Lake Country region of Waukesha county which offers a view of more than one inland lake.
People aren't going to come from Europe to see a few inland lakes in southern Wisconsin. Think about the rail trips that cruise ship passengers go on--the WP&Y, Flam, Rocky Mountaineer and Alaska Railroad. What do they all have in common--world class scenery. Sorry, southern Wisconsin ain't cutting it.
BackshopNow you're just making things up. They don't have the ships, they haven't said that they're going to build the ships, yet you're counting on Viking to come to Milwaukee.
Read for content, I write in English and I was pretty clear about Viking Cruise lines being interested in Great Lakes Cruises you read into that that they were comming to Milwaukee. Oh and it's available via Google. I refuse to instruct people how to use Google but you should find it in a 5 min search.
BackshopPeople aren't going to come from Europe to see a few inland lakes in southern Wisconsin.
What an absolutist statement, no wonder you have horse blinders on concerning the other issues raised.
BackshopOkay, add all the way to the Twin Cities--still not world class scenery.
Thats your stupid prerequisite and is also a subjective matter of opinion. Show me the world class scenery on any of the Great Lakes cruises? That is just a dumb arguing point for what is a fall foilage cruise and listed as such on the French cruise line. You only need rolling hills for that and or tall bluffs and rolling hills.
First of all, mid September is too early for most colors, so only the outbound cruise in early October would see any appreciable color. As far as world class sights--they go through the Thousand Islands area, tour Niagara Falls and visit Georgian Bay and Mackinac Island. Their website also (as far as I could see) doesn't offer any pre or post cruise excursion packages.
BackshopFirst of all, mid September is too early for most colors, so only the outbound cruise in early October would see any appreciable color. As far as world class sights--they go through the Thousand Islands area, tour Niagara Falls and visit Georgian Bay and Mackinac Island. Their website also (as far as I could see) doesn't offer any pre or post cruise excursion packages.
Those are world class sights? I thought you were referring to officially recognized UN Heritage areas like some of the Canadian, Canadian Rockies Parks. So a very low threshold on "world class" because it fits your narrative. Been to all those areas and I would not call them "world class" anymore than the Sand Dunes in Northern Indiana.
Also peak colors fluctuates year to year and is a guess most years until we are right on the season. Fall colors peak depending on the first frost and it has been unpredictable but has been as early as the third week in September for Southern Wisconsin (usually week of Oct 1st), can't say when it is for Quebec but probably earlier since it is further North.
They sure as hell beat the Wisconsin Dells...
CMStPnPOk so your looking at this too narrowly or haven't really researched this to see the market and we disagree on this point. Hapag-Lloyd will launch a new ship in 2019 called the Hansetic Inspiration offering cruises in English and German. They have one Great Lakes cruise booked and also have expressed an interest in Milwaukee. Their offshore excursions include pre and post cruise see link below.
The H-L cruises are Toronto to Chicago (pictured) and vice versa. They include stops on other Great Lakes, such as Duluth, Traverse City, Detroit, etc. but not Milwaukee. "If wishes were..."
charlie hebdoThe H-L cruises are Toronto to Chicago (pictured) and vice versa. They include stops on other Great Lakes, such as Duluth, Traverse City, Detroit, etc. but not Milwaukee. "If wishes were..."
Chicago Tribune said they were considering Milwaukee as a stop.
From the Hapag-Lioyd website...
https://www.hl-cruises.com/cruisefinder/INS2011
CMStPnP charlie hebdo The H-L cruises are Toronto to Chicago (pictured) and vice versa. They include stops on other Great Lakes, such as Duluth, Traverse City, Detroit, etc. but not Milwaukee. "If wishes were..." Chicago Tribune said they were considering Milwaukee as a stop.
charlie hebdo The H-L cruises are Toronto to Chicago (pictured) and vice versa. They include stops on other Great Lakes, such as Duluth, Traverse City, Detroit, etc. but not Milwaukee. "If wishes were..."
So you should have given the citation, since this notion was not on the Hapag-Lloyd site.
Another Cruise line on the Great Lakes is Great Lakes Cruising Company and they run trips between Toronto and Chicago but they do not stop on Lake Michigan except at Chicago. Mackinac Island is their first stop after leaving Chicago. Some of the departures are all Roadscholar Trips.
https://greatlakescruising.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Victory_GreatLakesGrandDiscovery_Map_2018-1.png
And as far as sailing (cruising) on lake Superior, I do not feel comfortable with going on that body of water. I have heard the song, "The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" by Gordon Lighgtfoot too many times and consider it something to avoid.
Just avoid the "gales of November" and you'll be fine. It's the most interesting of the Great Lakes.
charlie hebdoSo you should have given the citation, since this notion was not on the Hapag-Lloyd site. Add Quote to your Post
Here is an article that mentions Viking entering the Great Lakes market, check out pictures of the Hapag-Lloyd MS Hamburg is that a cool looking ship or what??
http://greatlakesseaway.org/cruising-the-great-lakes-more-ships-more-passengers-more-stops-in-cleveland/
Hapag- Lloyd has actually docked in Milwaukee before per this article, I am not going to spend more time searching for the Tribune article.
https://www.nytimes.com/1997/09/14/travel/travel-advisory-setting-sail-for-toledo-and-milwaukee.html
Oh and that other guy was wrong about the Hansetic Inspiration being built exclusively for the artic. First I don't think the ship is delivered yet. Second the Hanseatic series travels all over the world on niche cruises including the Amazon they have an upcomming season where they have the ships in the Artic but they in fact rotate them all around the world.
I nevere said "exclusivey". If you check out the itinerary, the majority are Arctic/Antarctic cruises. They are specially built to have the highest ice rating for passenger ships. Most of their other cruises are to get them between the two polar regions or back home to Germany for maintenance.
https://www.seascanner.com/cruises-hanseatic-inspiration
https://www.cruisemapper.com/ships/Hanseatic-Inspiration-1735
The Hamburg, ex-Columbus article is from 22 years ago. I've seen it a few times in the Soo and Mackinac Island.
The Cleveland article mentions "rumors" of Viking coming to the Lakes, that's all.
CMStPnPhttp://greatlakesseaway.org/cruising-the-great-lakes-more-ships-more-passengers-more-stops-in-cleveland/ Hapag- Lloyd has actually docked in Milwaukee before per this article, I am not going to spend more time searching for the Tribune article.
22 years ago was when they ran. Perhaps not again until this year and Milwaukee is not given an encore.
Maybe, one of the few good uses for sleeping cars in the 21st century would be serving the top 10% (roughly) in the same manner that top-end cruise ships do. But, a 1950's double-bedroom (or drawing-room, for that matter) isn't going to cut it with those in the 10%, the rooms will need to be much bigger. The Rocky Mountaineer isn't bothering with sleeping cars, so it's probably something most people aren't interested in (not sure what their demographic is tho...)
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