Now the real politics of Brightline opposition may become appparent ? Stuart and Ft. Pierce both vying for a Brightline station to be located in their abode. Quite a contrast to earlier opposition ? Wonder how many trains will stop and how many will not stop to and from Orlando and Miami ?
https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/all-aboard-florida/2018/09/21/stuart-fort-pierce-battle-brightline-station/1355787002/
Good grief!
Amazing how attitudes change.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
This isn't as much 'politics' than a commonsense recognition about HSR once it's a fait accompli. Every politician hates HSR that goes through their constituency like a Chinese wall; few politicians hate HSR that serves their constituency with high-speed train service. So you shouldn't be surprised to see sudden enthusiasm for city governments to start lobbying to have the trains stop there after all.
Of course this may be as dumb, in terms of practical operation, as making true HSR trains stop in Wilmington on their way between Philadelphia and Baltimore. Too many stops, even if they were to be well patronized from a true revenue perspective, and you never even get to the higher speed ranges, let alone see reasonable time reduction over more conventional and vastly cheaper alternatives.
There's an old saying, "Nothing succeeds like success!"
There’s another old saying that begins, “If you can’t beat them...”
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
Brightline monthly 'Tasting Train'
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2018/10/04/florida-brightline-rail-service-monthly-tasting-train/1528515002/
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Speaking of Brightline opposition how about Cacti Against Rail Expansion (CARE) ;) for the proposed LA to Vegas route.
BaltACD Brightline monthly 'Tasting Train' https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2018/10/04/florida-brightline-rail-service-monthly-tasting-train/1528515002/
What a novel concept, that Brightline will actually charge the passengers for the wine tasting instead of doing it for free on a speciality car like Amtrak did on the Pacific Coast. Of course the Amtrak service was popular as are most services you just give away to the public for free. Wonder if Amtrak management is paying attention to this or views it as marketing blasphemy?
After all Amtrak pricing is low in the food service area to serve the greater public, it's not really in business to make money on food or beverage because everyone knows that is just part of the expenses one must incur to serve the traveling public on a train. Making money on food and beverage with a captive market would be soooo robber baron-ish.
CMStPnP BaltACD Brightline monthly 'Tasting Train' https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2018/10/04/florida-brightline-rail-service-monthly-tasting-train/1528515002/ What a novel concept, that Brightline will actually charge the passengers for the wine tasting instead of doing it for free on a speciality car like Amtrak did on the Pacific Coast. Of course the Amtrak service was popular as are most services you just give away to the public for free. Wonder if Amtrak management is paying attention to this or views it as marketing blasphemy? After all Amtrak pricing is low in the food service area to serve the greater public, it's not really in business to make money on food or beverage because everyone knows that is just part of the expenses one must incur to serve the traveling public on a train. Making money on food and beverage with a captive market would be soooo robber baron-ish.
There's a reason Amtrak was able to give away the wine on the Pacific Coast, they didn't have to pay for it, the wineries provided the wine for the tastings free of charge knowing that it would be the cheapest advertisement they could get.
Low pricing? Maybe that was sarcasm. Burger and potato chips $12.50. Roasted chicken breast, mashed potato $18.50.
Good news after months of characters like Brian Mast and other groups around the Treasure Coast lobbying against it.
The irony is that without this railway system, Florida East Coast and Mr Henry Morrison Flagler, this area would still be an hour undeveloped-mosquito infested swamp. Never forget that.
On the other hand, as Florida surpassed the 20 million residents already, the traffic is getting worse by the minute. Public transit here is joke, something that still really underdeveloped.
I spent 12 years in Madrid, Spain, where I never had to drive a car. The rail infrastructure has hundreds of stations in and around the city, reaching absolutely everywhere. Still traffic, but you don't have to deal with it!
Back to South Florida, or the whole state, the only choice is to get a car! It's not too late to put those abandoned rail corridors to good use. Otherwise, we gonna have 50-lane expressways in no time.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JRThere's a reason Amtrak was able to give away the wine on the Pacific Coast, they didn't have to pay for it, the wineries provided the wine for the tastings free of charge knowing that it would be the cheapest advertisement they could get.
That may have been the original idea, however at the end, I read Amtrak was not only paying for the wine it was giving away during the tasting sessions (one reason why Congress balked)......it was cheap azz wine to boot with the most expensive brand selling for approx $16 a bottle. They had a full time attendent narrating during the experience, additionally they had food prep involved in the cheese platters. Not to mention the specialty car on the train.
Even if they got the wine for free that was a pretty sad setup. Razor thin margin on any bottles they sold on board, if they sold the wine........not sure if they did. Someone in marketing should have asked a while back........what the hay is Amtrak getting in return for all this? Yet nobody did.
- no extra fare charged
- small margin per bottle.
- Not sure what they made on the cheese.
So what else did the Parlor Car have to offer? A social seating area, a small library, and maybe TV and movies (free from what I read). No mixed drinks served. No additional snacks with higher margin served. Pretty much the car was adding to the cost of operating the train without producing a smidgen of extra revenue via any kind of extra charge or fees.
Remember that dining and lounge cars were referred to as non-revenue cars long before May 1, 1971.
You could also eat dinner in the Parlour Car. As I remember the menu was different from that in the diner. You had to order your dinner in advance.
Johnny
CSSHEGEWISCHRemember that dining and lounge cars were referred to as non-revenue cars long before May 1, 1971.
A good portion of families back then had one primary wage earner working one job and one family car. Detroit was still a multi-racial city and most other major cities had not suffered the massive urban sprawl they do now. Airlines were still regulated and expensive. Different world than today as far as personal choices to make for transportation.
My guess is that Brightline will put the station wherever they can make the biggest killing from RE development. That's the economic underpinning of the whole operation. Remember, the fare box net can never cover the capital construction costs. Tens of millions a year won't cover $2B capital. It only works if you can make a killing in RE development at station sites.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Ahyep.
"These changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes,Nothing remains quite the same.Through all of the islands and all of the highlands,If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane."
~ Jimmy Buffet ~
Overmod This isn't as much 'politics' than a commonsense recognition about HSR once it's a fait accompli. Every politician hates HSR that goes through their constituency like a Chinese wall; few politicians hate HSR that serves their constituency with high-speed train service. So you shouldn't be surprised to see sudden enthusiasm for city governments to start lobbying to have the trains stop there after all. Of course this may be as dumb, in terms of practical operation, as making true HSR trains stop in Wilmington on their way between Philadelphia and Baltimore. Too many stops, even if they were to be well patronized from a true revenue perspective, and you never even get to the higher speed ranges, let alone see reasonable time reduction over more conventional and vastly cheaper alternatives.
D NICHOLSIf you set it up right, it can be done. You just don't stop every train at every station.
Keep in mind that we are talking true HSR, not the kind of service prevailing under either Amtrak or NJT/SEPTA, MARC, etc.
Having to run high-speed trains that, say, stop at Wilmington but not Philadelphia, and counterpart trains that stop at Philadelphia, but not Wilmington is going to cause you operational and political problems far outside the (relatively small) time savings you can show. It is certainly the case that full expresses between Washington and New York could be made to pay, and likely be fit in with even substantial amounts of more regional/local service (particularly after the Gateway improvements are built and the subsequent stabilization of the PRR tunnels is made). But the analogue of skip-stop is going to be, I think, a tough sell, unless you propose the sort of headways that the turn-of-the-20th-Century high-speed railroad between New York and Philadelphia was going to provide. I don't see that coming for NEC HSR service even if they buy all the trainsets a Federal Amtrak budget could afford.
I've ridden that corridor in the oldest SS Budd car that met Amtrak's requirements and we did 115 MPH. Electric trains can accelerate quickly...
In the Seventies I rode Silverliners that repeatedly achieved over 100mph between stops. This did not materially improve the time of locals over expresses. The effect of a deceleration-dwell-reacceleration on overall time is substantial, and it has to be compared against the comparable time savings of incremental speed increase, a bit analogous to how you pay for fixed expenses out of enterprise profit. For fun, you can do the math on trip times for the proposed 'second spine' with and without the speed restriction on the "big curve" and the stop at Hartford.
An added point that supports your idea is that some combination of KERS and wayside electric storage can be used to permit more stops with less brake wear, and faster acceleration from a stop, for the same or lower energy cost. Personally I think these technologies should be incorporated into any true HSR development for the Corridor, particularly at the south end. But again, the time vs. convenience savings are relatively slight, on the order of no more than a few minutes over the regular time with stops.
... and even passenger locos that are Diesel powered can get up to speed rather quickly with short passenger trains.
Which makes autonomous rather than even single-manned operation become something of a development priority, if you expect short HSR on more frequent headways to be the way to satisfy emergent demand. You will notice that any successful service since the 1930s has demanded longer trains instead of more frequent short ones; there have been good economic and operating reasons for that. Perhaps it need not be the case in future, but there are other costs associated with it that should be anticipated.
There are some good numbers on comparative performance coming out of MARC's recent decision on new power (diesel, presumably with more Chargers, vs. electric) which as I recall have even 125-mph-capable high-horsepower locomotives at a significant acceleration disadvantage vs. electric, and I suspect the consequences of constant horsepower will become dramatically greater for acceleration in the higher ranges of HSR speed. I do not remember whether MARC's analysis included allowance for nominally lighter or shorter construction of the straight electrics; I suspect it did not, but it bears remembering that iirc MARC's requirements ruled out new EMU construction vs. locomotive-hauled consists, as did much of the PRIIA specification as written. I suspect that a pure EMU (Metroliner-like) solution would not be used even when full waiver trainsets are built (instead using distributed axle power on some cars in the train, like the ICE solution, but not all the equipment on any given car, and the 'sets' at least semipermanently coupled).
Now Stuart has come out full force for a station. Will be interesting if they or Ft. Pierce will get the first and maybe only station ?
https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/all-aboard-florida/2018/10/23/stuart-pursue-brightline-station-considering-3-downtown-locations/1738397002/
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