MikeF90Correct me I'm wrong, but I don't believe Amtrak maintains the ATS equipment on its owned LOSSAN corridor locos, and Metrolink doesn't install it on theirs. IIRC the schedules for both services assume 79MPH running maximum. There are few long segments between stops that could take advantage of the higher speed.
I thought Amtrak still did 80-85 between Irvine and SJC, as well as in Camp Pendleton and North County SD?
Last time I was down there, within the past year, the speed limit signs said 90.
ROBERT WILLISON On a recent Auto train trip, my mph app never clock the train more than 71 mph. The old seaboard airline railway would be turning over in its grave.
On a recent Auto train trip, my mph app never clock the train more than 71 mph. The old seaboard airline railway would be turning over in its grave.
RR Johnson ROBERT WILLISON On a recent Auto train trip, my mph app never clock the train more than 71 mph. The old seaboard airline railway would be turning over in its grave. I believe the FRA restricts auto racks to 70mph in the U.S. Edward Johnson
I believe the FRA restricts auto racks to 70mph in the U.S. Edward Johnson
70 is the Maximum allowed speed for Auto Train between Sanford and Lorton in both directions. That speed coupled with it not making station stops creates issues on the RF&P in the afternoons when it leaves Lorton mixed in with VRE and Amtrak traffic, not to mention CSX freight in both directions.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
J. BishopLast time I was down there, within the past year, the speed limit signs said 90.
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Since opening this discussion re: Amtrak's speed limits outside of the NEC, another question or two has come to mind.
Are Amtrak's locomotives equipped with speed recorders, i.e devices similar to the black box on an airplane, that can be used to verify an engineer was complying with the speed limits?
Is an engineer permitted some wiggle room with respect to speed. For example, if the maximum speed is 79 mph, can she inch a mph or two above that?
Most auto speedometers have a measurement error baked into them, i.e. they can be off by a couple of mph one way or the other when indicating 100 mph. Do Amtrak's locomotives, or all locomotives for that matter, have a error component in their speed indicators? Sometimes this is referred to the standard error of measurement, I believe.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
JPS1Since opening this discussion re: Amtrak's speed limits outside of the NEC, another question or two has come to mind. Are Amtrak's locomotives equipped with speed recorders, i.e devices similar to the black box on an airplane, that can be used to verify an engineer was complying with the speed limits? Is an engineer permitted some wiggle room with respect to speed. For example, if the maximum speed is 79 mph, can she inch a mph or two above that? Most auto speedometers have a measurement error baked into them, i.e. they can be off by a couple of mph one way or the other when indicating 100 mph. Do Amtrak's locomotives, or all locomotives for that matter, have a error component in their speed indicators? Sometimes this is referred to the standard error of measurement, I believe.
Amtrak locomotives are equipped with Speed Recorders. With today's technology the 'black boxes' record much more than just speed, throttle position, brake control position, GPS position etc.
My understanding, and it could be wrong, is a 5 MPH variance is allowed. Note, by entering GPS into the speed equation, in addition to a 'geared' speed, I suspect the black box also generates a GPS calculated speed - like the GPS unit on one's automobile.
The Employee Time Tables have designated exactly measured miles which are to be used for Speed Recorder calibration - Engineers will report a variance to the Train Dispatcher over the road radio channel, as all radio conversations are recorded that conversation creates a permanent record of the variance should later incidents bring it into question.
To add a couple of notes: A usual reason to incorporate a physical speedometer on a locomotive was to provide the speed recorder (usually on paper tape) - I believe this was commonly found with Valve Pilot equipment since it required a reasonably accurate speed input to work. Conversely there were a number of speed recorders (Flaman being the name that comes to mind) that had no physical speedometer in the cab to indicate what the device was recording. (Of course many of the channels in a modern rail event recorder have no 'in-cab' instrument readings or data accessibility.)
There is, of course, strong reason to incorporate speed recording into ATC (which adds speed control to automatic train stop) but I don't believe there was either a mechanical or 'political' mandate to include it.
The usual drive to a speedometer in 'steam days' was off one of the axles, either by gear drive (as in the Jones-Motrola unit on the PRR T1s) or via a small generator with speed-proportional voltage output rather than pulse-counting encoder. I believe most, if not all, the Valve Pilot units 'read' the speed off the little friction wheel on handy driver.
There were, of course, calibration issues as the wheels and tires wore down in service. With the geared speedo drive there's a restriction imposed by tooth count in the driven gear on the amount of correction you can apply. Likewise you have to change something in a pulse-counting encoder (more recent tech will let you skip pulses as with astronomical drive clock timing, as the speed error will only read 'higher' with wear). With the DC generator all you need to do is adjust the potential with a trim potentiometer so that at any given rpm corresponding to the 'worn' diameter the speedo needle will indicate the correct mph. I don't know, but would suspect, this would be checked and adjustment made if needed at 92-day inspections.
(A cheap alternative would be to print a speed correction table and stick it in the cab someplace, making the crew responsible for rem the difference...)
With respect to 'overage', the reason for the "79mph" limit under the Esch Act is that the 80mph and over train-control requirement is absolute, and I believe it was made very clear from the early '20s on that there was NO EXCEPTION. (This wasn't an example of setting a speed limit at, say, 55 but only 'issuing tickets' at 10 or 14 over; this is like Arkansas strict enforcement.)
Valuable to hear from the working 'rails' on how TT speed enforcement is handled under their rules.
Valuable to hear from the working 'rails' on how TT speed enforcement is handled under their rules. The DOT-VNTSC-FRA-97-7 report, although now almost 2 decades old, has some discussion on the subject.
I know one of the regular conductors on the Texas Eagle, which I ride periodically between San Antonio and DFW.
He told me that if the engineer runs a red signal, he and the engineer are subject to disciplinary action. Or if the engineer is flagged for speeding, he is accountable for that violation also.
The conductor is in one of the passenger cars. Frequently it is the dinning car. He said that he knows where the signals are between Fort Worth and San Antonio. Apparently the engineer is required to call them on their personal communication devices. If he doesn't call them out, the conductor can pull the emergency brake cord. By the same token, I am told, if the engineer is speeding, he can pull the emergency brake cord.
Without access to a speed indicator, how would the conductor know that the engineer was flagrantly breaking the speed limit?
JPS1Without access to a speed indicator, how would the conductor know that the engineer was flagrantly breaking the speed limit?
Most cell phones have the app built in to calc your ground speed, included with your GPS.
You can also do it roughly if you know how long the parallel rail sidings are in feet using a stop watch.
It's called timing mileposts. With your required-equipment railroad watch.
I find it hard to believe that someone on a railroad forum would indicate that an on-duty railroader would be using a cell-phone app or GPS to measure speed... think for a moment, please, when posting something like that.
RMEI find it hard to believe that someone on a railroad forum would indicate that an on-duty railroader would be using a cell-phone app or GPS to measure speed... think for a moment, please, when posting something like that.
Psssst, ALT REALITY GUY..........it's not a railroad forum, it's a privately owned Trains magazine forum where anyone can contribute. Tell me how milepost counting works at night on a speeding passenger train. Does the conductor use a flashlight and sweep the ROW trying to find the milepost as the train speeds past?
Fact is....You have no clue how Amtrak does it on the Texas Eagle route and your only guessing here. I know when I last rode the VIA Rail Skeena the conductor had a laptop and ..............wait for it.........was using GPS over their WI-FI connection to keep track of where we were on the route and kept the laptop display open so passengers could view it.
CMStPnPPsssst, ALT REALITY GUY..........it's not a railroad forum, it's a privately owned Trains magazine forum.
Last time I looked, a few seconds ago, it was still a forum that was supposed to discuss railroads. (As opposed to international politics, or forensic metrology, or space exploration ... oh wait, maybe not altogether railroads.) But enough about railroads that people who post authoritatively about how conductors on Amtrak trains would measure speed should know to restrict themselves to legal approaches.
Except for Alt Reality Guys who figure a quick flip of the ol' phone to fire up the GPS now and then wouldn't count as a rules violation if it were for the Good Cause of Safe Speed Enforcement.
RMEExcept for Alt Reality Guys who figure a quick flip of the ol' phone to fire up the GPS now and then wouldn't count as a rules violation if it were for the Good Cause of Safe Speed Enforcement.
So if you read the original comment which was quite clear I might add until you read into it in your haste to insult another poster. I did not say they used cell phones I only said most cell phones have GPS with speed indication.
I did say they probably used parallel track.........which you did not even address. There is a whole number of ways speed can be checked against a fixed point (which I presume would be common knowledge to most readers with High School Algebra). I have a suspicion that milepost counting probably does not work in times of limited visibility........such as after dark. So I can say your probably just guessing like the rest of us.
Some ETT's did have the minimum time between stations listed--which could be used day or night. Howver, for daytime running, observing how long it takes to run from milepost to milepost is an excellent way of seeing what the average speed of a train is.
Johnny
JPS asked how a conductor would know the speed. You answered him by noting that cell phones had GPS, evidently without realizing that was a Euclid-like comment in light of modern rules on technology use. Then you started spluttering and stonewalling, for which there is no point, really.
Of course they could use a stopwatch on siding lengths, if they brought one. They could use a measured length of string tied to a rock and toss it out, similar to the method used for logs on boats. They could ask a passenger to whip out a phone and fire up the GPS where they could see it ... or get the passenger to read them the information if there was some idiot weed-weasel eager to 'get' them for the technological equivalent of sidestream smoke.
Altogether, I think you are putting waaaaaay more effort into this than you have to. And not really convincing anyone with it all.
Yes, I agree that the best way to check speed would be with a laptop GPS application running over the train's wireless Internet connection. If that is legal. Let's hear from the railroaders if running GPS on a computer on a WiFi network differs from running GPS over cellular radio as far as applicable rules go! For conductors on duty, with the responsibility to call signals and 'backstop' speed enforcement...
[edit: I just now see your 'objection' to using a watch to time mileposts in the dark. You don't suppose now they paint those things white, and put lights in the vestibules, for no reason?]
I have noticed that at night, quite a lot of light from rail passenger car interiors dimly lights up the ROW when your eyes get used to it. Next time I will have to check if I can see the mileposts.
One thing you will find - when men have spent years moving up and down the railroad on all kinds of trains in all kinds of weather conditions - their body's own sense of timing becomes incredibly attuned to the feeling of speed - and they can tell you within 3 MPH +/- of what their actual speed is - consistantly.
A friend in racing can visually measure something within 1/16th of a inch without the use of a tape measure.
BaltACD- Yes, our noggins are pretty darn good sensing equipment and computers in their own right. A geologist, once familiar with an orebody, can accurately come up with the tons and grade of a muckpile just by looking at it. Of course it is measured by engineering and assayed by the lab, but they are always within a percent ot two.
Fellows working the mill, especially the Mill Super, always trusted the Geo's word over the engineeers and lab.
MidlandMike I have noticed that at night, quite a lot of light from rail passenger car interiors dimly lights up the ROW when your eyes get used to it. Next time I will have to check if I can see the mileposts.
The ambient light from the train is not going to cut it. Have you ridden the Texas Eagle at night through Arkansas and Missouri? I don't doubt for a minute the Amtrak Conductor is counting sheep along the route during his long absences but I have my doubts he is counting mileposts.
CMStPnP MidlandMike I have noticed that at night, quite a lot of light from rail passenger car interiors dimly lights up the ROW when your eyes get used to it. Next time I will have to check if I can see the mileposts. The ambient light from the train is not going to cut it. Have you ridden the Texas Eagle at night through Arkansas and Missouri? I don't doubt for a minute the Amtrak Conductor is counting sheep along the route during his long absences but I have my doubts he is counting mileposts.
9 times out of 10 if you ask the Conductor where you are and how fast the train is moving you will get an accurate answer. Don't have to count MP. Feeling the train pass over switches and/or crossing diamonds, hearing activated crossing protection, feeling slack changes in the train at known points. There are 1001 means that get used to identify position and speed.
BaltACD One thing you will find - when men have spent years moving up and down the railroad on all kinds of trains in all kinds of weather conditions - their body's own sense of timing becomes incredibly attuned to the feeling of speed - and they can tell you within 3 MPH +/- of what their actual speed is - consistantly. A friend in racing can visually measure something within 1/16th of a inch without the use of a tape measure.
CMStPnPThere is a whole number of ways speed can be checked against a fixed point
What ways?
BaltACD9 times out of 10 if you ask the Conductor where you are and how fast the train is moving you will get an accurate answer. Don't have to count MP. Feeling the train pass over switches and/or crossing diamonds, hearing activated crossing protection, feeling slack changes in the train at known points. There are 1001 means that get used to identify position and speed.
Understand that because it is a fixed territory being traveled iteratively. I have a sixth sense and can usually spot BS when it is spoken or written.......comes from my enlistment in the Army, long ago. When iteratively would be served up BS by people that were trying to show they had an authoritative answer for every question......when really they were only guessing (not too disimilar to the railfan community).
The Army recognized that was a ongoing problem and changed the rules after I seperated. As a private you can now challenge explanations or thinking made by higher up ranks as long as you do so politely.........no retribution will be taken. I wonder if the railroad industry has made that same reform? Since it kind of follows the same militaristic structure.
That change for the Army was a risk but also if you think about it, your a leader standing in front of 25 men, enough of them challenge your explanations or thinking and you start to look incompetent to the rest pretty fast and can lose respect faster and the higher ups spot it faster and make the necessary changes. So in my view it was a healthy change and helped purge people from leadership positions that were not really good at leadership or communicating.
CMStPnP I have a sixth sense and can usually spot BS when it is spoken or written.......comes from my enlistment in the Army, long ago.
I have a sixth sense and can usually spot BS when it is spoken or written.......comes from my enlistment in the Army, long ago.
If you BS meter is that good, it must be going crazy when you are typing your posts on this board.
An "expensive model collector"
Real military guys don't need to refer to their experiences at almost every opportunity.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
In jointed rail days, you could tell speed by rate of the "clickety clack". I got reasonably good at it riding Amtrak on the Hudson Line fairly frequently.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Yes I rode the Eagle at night, although it was more than 25 years ago. The conductor wasn't counting sheep, but was counting my money, as I had earlier asked him to notify me if an economy sleeper compartment opened up. He found me sometime between Arkadelphia and Little Rock.
CMStPnPThe Army recognized that was a ongoing problem and changed the rules after I seperated. As a private you can now challenge explanations or thinking made by higher up ranks as long as you do so politely.........no retribution will be taken. I wonder if the railroad industry has made that same reform? Since it kind of follows the same militaristic structure.
It's called the "good faith challenge". You can find it under the code of federal regs.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
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