I ll be taking Amtrak auto train round trip next week. I haven't been on the train for 3 years. Has the service been down graded at all or on par with service from a few years back?
No lounge car. No wine and cheese on boarding.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Wow no lounge car.. Dam best place to be when we rolling thru Jacksonville South bound, watch the train curve around the wye. The good about the same?
Don looks like the lounge cars have returned. One each for the coach and sleeper sections.
Lounge cars were never eliminated, although there was a brief period when there was only one lounge to serve the entire train, which sometimes carries as many as 600 passengers. The lounge for the coach section was never eliminated. The one for the sleeper section was soon restored when it became obvious that its removal had been unwise.
Amenites in the lounge cars have been reduced as a result of demands for more cost reductions. The complimentary wine and cheese tastings for sleeper passengers are things of the past.
The food is still good, but some of the more expensive options have been eliminated. The crews would prefer to serve you the kinds of things they did in the past, but they do a good job with what they have to work with. You said your last trip was three years ago. Many (probably most) of the same chefs are still there, and they are still doing their best. But their options are more limited as a result of decisions made way above their pay grade.
Sorry I didn't see this item until after your trip & was unable to give a timely response. Hope you had a good trip.
Tom
ACYThe complimentary wine and cheese tastings for sleeper passengers are things of the past.
Those exist now in the First Class Lounges of Chicago Union Station and elsewhere. I spent $20 to stay in the Burlington room in CUS and started to snicker when they rolled out the complimentary wine and cheese tasting session.
He-he-he-he.
I've heard about amenities remaining on offer in some places, but Chicago is not under the control of the same managers as Auto Train. One explanation I have heard is that the Southern Region managers believe Auto Train is a guaranteed cash cow with or without the amenities, and there is nothing to be gained by offering them. I can't guarantee that this truly represents their thinking.
(edited slightly)
The trip was great the dinner was good. Breakfast was basically packaged food which was equivalent to getting food to at 7-11.
The crews were old hands, they were embarrassed, not with food as much but more of having to serve it on plastic plates and selling wine then serving it plastic cups. They missed the wine and cheese days but know they won't come back.
The have met with wick and they know he feels that food service is essential to not only auto train but all medium and long distance trains.
My fellow sleeping car passenger were clearly not happy with the cut backs. Most like my self could careless about the wine and cheese. How ever thiers a threshold that could deter even the long term snow birds. Even Delta airlines is bring back food on long distances domestic flights.
Sundays # 52 was carrying 380 passengers, about 3/4 full. # 53 was returning North Monday with 200 passengers.
It's clear that this is not a peak time a year for at. But even Amtrak on board crews and Amtrak management knows the cut back have not been good.
The one thing Amtrak's hand to mouth existance in providing passenger service that is overlooked by the bean counters making decisions is SERVICE.
Service is more than just someone doing their job - service is also a style in which that job is performed. Plastic plates and silverware are fine for McD's and the ilk. Food service doesn't need to be Ritz Carleton quality but it needs to be at least Applebee's if not better.
Food service in Class 1 days was never a profit center - it was public relations with the shippers and their employees and was done to gain favor and thereby increased tonnages shipped. With Amtrak the public relations aspect doesn't exist as Amtrak doesn't carry freight - but good service entices passengers to use Amtrak again - bad service turns them away in droves.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I know the old hands are embarrassed to be forced to provide service at this level. I've talked to them. While I don't have specific comparative figures for other years, I can tell you that the passenger counts recently have been well below historic levels for the same time of year in years past. My source is a number of long-time Auto Train employees who are still on the job. They continue to do their best with the resources provided to them.
With all the repeat passenger on Auto Train how many will not return for years until they become aware that service has returned to previous values ?
ACY ....I don't have specific comparative figures for other years, I can tell you that the passenger counts recently have been well below historic levels for the same time of year in years past. Tom
....I don't have specific comparative figures for other years, I can tell you that the passenger counts recently have been well below historic levels for the same time of year in years past. Tom
In FY16 the Auto Train carried 238,448 passengers, down from 271,622 in FY15. In FY10 the train carried 244,955 passengers. The maximum number of passengers carried between 2010 and 2016 was 274,445 in 2014.
In 2010 the Auto Train had an operating loss of $300,000; in 2015 it had an operating profit of $2.1 million; in 2016 it had an operating loss of $1.8 million. In 2014 it had an operating loss of $1.8 million, which is the same loss that it incurred in 2016 while carrying fewer passengers.
Amtrak's executive management, with board concurrence, unless it abrogates its responsibilities, which is unlikely, decides what food and beverage services to offer on its trains.
Amtrak's cost accountants provide a a range of cost scenarios for Amtrak's executive management to consider in deciding what level of service to offer on its trains.
The accountants do not decide what level of service will be offered. That is executive management's call. Their decisions are restricted to the application of generally accepted management accounting (cost accounting) standards to the issue at hand.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
JPS1 ACY ....I don't have specific comparative figures for other years, I can tell you that the passenger counts recently have been well below historic levels for the same time of year in years past. Tom In FY16 the Auto Train carried 238,448 passengers, down from 271,622 in FY15. In FY10 the train carried 244,955 passengers. The maximum number of passengers carried between 2010 and 2016 was 274,445 in 2014. In 2010 the Auto Train had an operating loss of $300,000; in 2015 it had an operating profit of $2.1 million; in 2016 it had an operating loss of $1.8 million. In 2014 it had an operating loss of $1.8 million, which is the same loss that it incurred in 2016 while carrying fewer passengers. Amtrak's cost accountants provide a a range of cost scenarios for Amtrak's executive management to consider in deciding what level of service to offer on its trains. ountants do not decide what level of service will be offered. That is executive management's call. Their decisions are restricted to the application of generally accepted management accounting (cost accounting) standards to the issue at hand.
Amtrak's cost accountants provide a a range of cost scenarios for Amtrak's executive management to consider in deciding what level of service to offer on its trains. ountants do not decide what level of service will be offered. That is executive management's call. Their decisions are restricted to the application of generally accepted management accounting (cost accounting) standards to the issue at hand.
Right, the bean counters don't decide exactly how to achieve goals. That is up to Executive Managers for the specific services. There was a major change in Management personnel controlling the Auto Train at the end of 2013 or the beginning of 2014. The train's traditional clientele returned that year and traveled as they had always done, supplemented by even more passengers who were riding because they had heard of the train's great reputation. That accounts for the very high numbers in 2014, which you cite. Many of the newcomers didn't know the difference, and were satisfied with their experience. Many veteran Auto Train customers were sorely disappointed. A lot of them continued to use the train, but it is an absolute fact that the cutbacks did cause a considerable number of them to reevaluate their travel decisions and stop thinking of the Auto Train as their first choice. Since retiring in 2014, I have been in contact with some of my former passengers as well as former co workers, and can say without hesitation that the cutbacks initiated by the new Management team of early 2014 had serious negative effects on service, patronage, and employee morale.
Meanwhile, as I said above, the front line service employees continue to do their best.
ACY JPS1 ACY ....I don't have specific comparative figures for other years, I can tell you that the passenger counts recently have been well below historic levels for the same time of year in years past. Tom In FY16 the Auto Train carried 238,448 passengers, down from 271,622 in FY15. In FY10 the train carried 244,955 passengers. The maximum number of passengers carried between 2010 and 2016 was 274,445 in 2014. In 2010 the Auto Train had an operating loss of $300,000; in 2015 it had an operating profit of $2.1 million; in 2016 it had an operating loss of $1.8 million. In 2014 it had an operating loss of $1.8 million, which is the same loss that it incurred in 2016 while carrying fewer passengers. Amtrak's cost accountants provide a a range of cost scenarios for Amtrak's executive management to consider in deciding what level of service to offer on its trains. ountants do not decide what level of service will be offered. That is executive management's call. Their decisions are restricted to the application of generally accepted management accounting (cost accounting) standards to the issue at hand. Right, the bean counters don't decide exactly how to achieve goals. That is up to Executive Managers for the specific services. There was a major change in Management personnel controlling the Auto Train at the end of 2013 or the beginning of 2014. The train's traditional clientele returned that year and traveled as they had always done, supplemented by even more passengers who were riding because they had heard of the train's great reputation. That accounts for the very high numbers in 2014, which you cite. Many of the newcomers didn't know the difference, and were satisfied with their experience. Many veteran Auto Train customers were sorely disappointed. A lot of them continued to use the train, but it is an absolute fact that the cutbacks did cause a considerable number of them to reevaluate their travel decisions and stop thinking of the Auto Train as their first choice. Since retiring in 2014, I have been in contact with some of my former passengers as well as former co workers, and can say without hesitation that the cutbacks initiated by the new Management team of early 2014 had serious negative effects on service, patronage, and employee morale. Meanwhile, as I said above, the front line service employees continue to do their best. Tom Let me put it in simple terms from my experience. The round trip sleeper fare with my automobile was roughly 1900.00 . my little 6 speed Jetta gets about 36 miles to gallon. Gasoline, a hotel , food maybe about 200, so round trip about 400. Thier is a tipping point where people will not pay the premium coach or sleeper fare without a decent level if service. I'm not talking 20 th century limited here. They even cut out the kiddie movies goodness sake. Premium fare should equal good service.
Most Auto Train crew members will agree with you, Robert. If you jack up prices and cut service levels beyond a certain point, you will eventually, inevitably, get to the point where nobody will use your service by choice. Your sole clientele will be those who have absolutely no other choice, and that is not a sustainable model for much of anything.
Nowadays, there are so many other options available that it is ridiculous to think that way. People can drive, pay somebody else to drive them, take a bus or plane, and possibly even take a boat. They can have their car shipped by highway trailer, rent a car at their destination, borrow a friend's car, rely on busses or taxis, or even buy a used second car to use for a few months while they are in Florida. They have traditionally used the train because it is convenient and the service levels have been high enough in the past to justify the price.
If you continue to cut service and raise the price, the convenience becomes less attractive and the result is inevitable.
All the Florida trains had a decrease in riders in 2016 compared to 2015. The Silver Star saw 5 percent fewer passengers; the Silver Meteor 1.9 percent. Moreover, all of the north/south long distance trains had a decrease in riders. It was 2.5 percent for the City of New Orleans; 3.5 percent for the Texas Eagle, 4.8 percent for the Crescent and .6 percent for the Coast Starlight. The only north/south long distance train to buck the trend was the Palmetto. It had an 82.5 percent increase in riders.
Exactly
As I have said, Management changed around the end of 2013, and instituted changes at the beginning of 2014. Veteran passengers returned to the train along with new customers during 2014, so the numbers remained solid during that year. The new managers were elated, and thought they deserved credit for the high passenger counts. But the passengers saw the cuts in service, and many did not return in subsequent years. Those of us in direct passenger service saw this as it was happening, and predicted the outcome. That's when I retired at the age of 67, even though I would have been better off financially if I had stayed on a bit longer. The decline has continued. It doesn't take a genius to figure out cause and effect.
ACY As I have said, Management changed around the end of 2013, and instituted changes at the beginning of 2014. Veteran passengers returned to the train along with new customers during 2014, so the numbers remained solid during that year. The new managers were elated, and thought they deserved credit for the high passenger counts. But the passengers saw the cuts in service, and many did not return in subsequent years. Those of us in direct passenger service saw this as it was happening, and predicted the outcome. That's when I retired at the age of 67, even though I would have been better off financially if I had stayed on a bit longer. The decline has continued. It doesn't take a genius to figure out cause and effect. Tom
ACY But the passengers saw the cuts in service, and many did not return in subsequent years. Tom
Beginning in their mid 60s my parents, along with five other couples, went to Florida for six weeks every winter. Over time the gang, as the called themselves, dwindled due to deaths and illnesses.
My impression is that many of the Auto Trains passengers are retirees. If this is true, I wonder how many of them did not return because of deaths and illnesses?
Elimination of wine and cheese, as well as serving wine in plastic glasses and food on plastic plates, caused a decrease of an average of 45 customers per day per train? Of this number 15 were sleeping car passengers, who might have decided on another option because they felt the service did not justify the price, but I suspect other factors, i.e. cheap gasoline, low air fares, etc. played an equally important role.
Yes, the Auto Train clientele has always been dominated by retirees. This was true in 1987 when I started working there, and it was true when I retired in 2014. It was true when Eugene Garfield started the service in the pre-Amtrak days, and it is true today. From year to year, we saw the same people time after time, and often got to know them by name. They knew us, too. Naturally, there was a certain amount of attrition every year. Knowledge of the Auto Train was often spread around the population of retirees by word of mouth. New retirees heard about it from neighbors in the retirement communities and Senior Citizen centers. They were referred by their doctors, relatives, and others. As older passengers passed on, there were always plenty of new retirees to take their place.
If the service can remain attractive and cost effective, there is no reason to think that shouldn't continue indefinitely.
Of course there are always other passengers besides the Seniors: People relocating; students moving to go to college; job transfers; family vacations, or any other reason you can think of. All the Kiddies want to go see Mickey Mouse.
JPS1My impression is that many of the Auto Trains passengers are retirees
He-he-he. Seriously, you came to that conclusion on your own given the non-stop train's Destination is Florida.
CMStPnP JPS1 My impression is that many of the Auto Trains passengers are retirees
JPS1 My impression is that many of the Auto Trains passengers are retirees
In mid summer, the Auto Train's dominant clientele tends to be family vacationers because that's when the kids are out of school. Retirees mostly remain in the north, and won't be going south in great numbers until the fall. Once the fall comes, the retired snowbirds start going south in great numbers, but not many coming north. The reverse is true in the spring. So a lot depends on the direction of travel and the time of year. It can even vary depending on whether it's the middle or end of the week because most working people must start and end vacations on the weekends, while retirees are more free to travel mid-week. Nothing is 100% predictable, but retirees tend to be a major part of the Auto Train's clientele more often than not.
I'm not sure about the relevance of the comment about the horrible trip in a sleeper. It sounds like it wasn't on the Auto Train, and it may have been in a completely different type of equipment, and you don't say what made it so horrible. Without context, the comment strikes me as somewhat gratuitous, and possibly irrelevant to the present discussion.
ACY Without context, the comment strikes me as somewhat gratuitous, and possibly irrelevant to the present discussion. Tom
Without context, the comment strikes me as somewhat gratuitous, and possibly irrelevant to the present discussion. Tom
It was on the Broadway Limited from New York to Chicago. I don't sleep well on trains. For long distance travel I fly and book a nice hotel.
I had a better experience in the Auto Train coach than I had in the sleeper on the Broadway.
My train travel is restricted to the NEC plus a couple trips a year on the Texas Eagle between San Antonio and Dallas or an occasional trip between El Paso and Tucson. Sometimes I book a seat in an economy room for the privacy, but I find the coach seats to be more comfortable.
On a recent trip from Dallas to San Antonio on the Texas Eagle, I met an older couple on their way to Tucson. They had an economy room. They told me that they don't make up the bed at night; they prefer to sleep sitting up. They find the beds hard, climbing into the top bunk a pain in the backside, and getting up in the middle of the night to use the toilet inconvenient. I am sure they are an exception, but I can understand where they are coming from.
JPS1 I don't sleep well on trains. For long distance travel I fly and book a nice hotel.
Given the miniscule fraction of the traveling public that chooses sleepers on LD trains, I suspect JBS1's sentiments are nearly universal. Most people want to get to their destination quickly and get good sleep in a hotel. Continuing to run LD trains (with or without sleepers) seems like a poor use of limited resources. I wish we had access to those Amtrak satisfaction survey to see the various age cohorts that ride the various trains.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
If it was a sleeper on the Broadway, it was a LONG time ago.
Wikipedia Amtrak The Broadway Limited at Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1974. Amtrak's incorporators selected the Broadway Limited as the new company's sole New York-Chicago route. Amtrak operated a Washington, D.C. section via the Port Road Branch, which separated at Harrisburg. In the 1970s, the Broadway Limited experienced chronic lateness as the tracks it ran on degraded. Beginning in 1979, the route changed, as tracks were abandoned and downgraded by Conrail, Penn Central's successor. These changes included:[14] A minor re-route over the ex-New York Central in Gary, Indiana in 1979. A major re-route over the ex-Baltimore and Ohio Railroad (B&O) in Indiana and Ohio, due to Conrail's desire to abandon part of the former Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago Railway. This change took effect on November 10, 1990. Amtrak discontinued the Broadway Limited on September 10, 1995, in the face of significant funding problems. The Broadway Limited then earned $6.6 million against costs of $24 million. Amtrak replaced it with the all-coach Three Rivers, which would in turn be discontinued in 2005.[15]
Amtrak's incorporators selected the Broadway Limited as the new company's sole New York-Chicago route. Amtrak operated a Washington, D.C. section via the Port Road Branch, which separated at Harrisburg. In the 1970s, the Broadway Limited experienced chronic lateness as the tracks it ran on degraded. Beginning in 1979, the route changed, as tracks were abandoned and downgraded by Conrail, Penn Central's successor. These changes included:[14]
Amtrak discontinued the Broadway Limited on September 10, 1995, in the face of significant funding problems. The Broadway Limited then earned $6.6 million against costs of $24 million. Amtrak replaced it with the all-coach Three Rivers, which would in turn be discontinued in 2005.[15]
schlimm JPS1 I don't sleep well on trains. For long distance travel I fly and book a nice hotel. Given the miniscule fraction of the traveling public that chooses sleepers on LD trains, I suspect JBS1's sentiments are nearly universal. Most people want to get to their destination quickly and get good sleep in a hotel. Continuing to run LD trains (with or without sleepers) seems like a poor use of limited resources. I wish we had access to those Amtrak satisfaction survey to see the various age cohorts that ride the various trains.
Amtrak sleeper is fine with me......no issues. Well except maybe they should replace the bedding just a little more often but last Christmas it wasn't as bad as the trip before. Also, should find a way to bring the ice drawer back.....maybe a built in Ice Dispenser like folks have in their refrigerator door.
Heading back north tomorrow. See how this works out.
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