Where have we seen this before-
http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/niagara-falls/niagara-falls-to-unveil-amtrak-station-ahead-of-amtrak-lease-signing-20160727
http://live.buffalonews.com/2016/07/30/look-new-43-million-niagara-falls-train-station/
Happen before in Albany/ rel, refused to move in over a dispute over rent.
Waste of money, in my opinion but typical for the United States.......
Wouldn't it have been a lot smarter to build a joint facility on the border so the costs could be shared with Canada (GO Transit) and it could be consolidated also with Customs from both sides? That way Amtrak eliminates a seperate station stop at the Canadian side just two miles away from the NY Amtrak station, Customs and border crossing could be streamlined providing for another schedule improvement. The Europeans do this throughout Europe when they have cross border train stations so close together. They move them on the border and eliminate a seperate stop.
How many people in Toronto want to go to Niagara Falls, New York rather than Niagara Falls, Ontario?
VIA does not operate across the river into New York; Amtrak operates the Maple Leaf to/from Niagara Falls, Ontario.
Johnny
Deggesty How many people in Toronto want to go to Niagara Falls, New York rather than Niagara Falls, Ontario? VIA does not operate across the river into New York; Amtrak operates the Maple Leaf to/from Niagara Falls, Ontario.
So then get Amtrak to bypass the Niagra Falls, NY station stop in favor of Niagra Falls, Ont. station stop (instead of having the Maple Leaf stop at both). Passengers that prefer the N.Y. station stop can be bussed back to the N.Y. station or N.Y. bus station. This would save 2-3 min in each direction off the trains schedule and really would eliminate the need for a NY station.
So then people going to Niagara Falls, NY have to go into Canada and through customs first before going directly back into the U.S.? Makes no sense.
While I will admit that this was over 20 years ago and times may have changed, there used to be a major outlet mall in Niagara Falls NY located about 200 yards from the Rainbow Bridge. It got a lot of business from Canadians on weekend shopping excursions since various excise taxes are lower in the United States.
pajrr So then people going to Niagara Falls, NY have to go into Canada and through customs first before going directly back into the U.S.? Makes no sense.
You don't have to go through customs unless your intent is to visit Canada. Like I said before the precedent exists in other places in the world to handle these situations, should be very easy to implement between two friendly countries. You can land in a country and take a connecting flight through it's airport without ever having to go through customs or getting your passport stamped. You can do the same in a train station you would just need to segregate the passengers after deboarding those who wish to formally enter Canada and those that wish to remain in the United States (even though they are in Canada). Just board a bus, seal the door with a customs seal.............drive back across the border with the United States and walla............you've deboarded in Canada but via controlled lack of access, were redirected back to the United States without having to go through customs.
They have a train station in Europe which is on the border with France, Germany and Switzerland. It handles trains for all three countries and you know what? Back when they had customs for the three countries you only had to go through the customs for the country you were entering or if you were just visiting the station you could remain in the country you were in without going through customs but all three countries could use the stations waiting area. It was intelligent design.
Isn't Niagara falls NY also where Amtrak services 2 of the 4 western NY trains?
I'm guessing you're thinking of Basel SBB. Going through customs at the station would only ever apply to arriving/departing passengers. Through passengers were checked in the moving train (which in the case of trains to Germany was during the very short hop over to Basel Bad - which is a German train station on Swiss territory that is treated as German soil unless you wish to leave the platform area).
In most cases, there was no particular stop right at the border. Customs were handled in moving trains between the last station in country A and the first station in country B. Quite unlike road traffic which had border checks/customs right at the border.
Today, with temporary border controls between Denmark and Sweden, trains to Sweden stop at Kastrup (Copenhagen Airport). Everyone gets off and goes through border controls and then boards the next train for Sweden. Once on the Swedish side, there's another border control stop in Hyllie (outskirts of Malmö). The whole process adds 20-30 minutes to the normal trip length.
Even in the olden days with extremely strict border controls crossing into East-Germany, the energetic passenger controls were handled in the moving train. Then an inspection for stowaways under the train at the actual border and on the train went.
The new station is already on the border.....you couldn't get any closer unless it was built in the centre of the bridge.
Do somethig similar to what is done in Vancouver BC now and what is proposed for Montreal in a year or two.....US and Canadian officers work in the same facility.
When I fly to the US from Canada...I go through through US CBP here (US officers working on Canadian soil) When my flight lands in the US I just walk off and I'm on my way...no further inspection.
Here Canadian officers would would work in the US.....Passengers would get off the Maple Leaf and go thru Canada CBSA in the new Station....the reboard to continue into Canada.
In reverse.....passengers arriving from Canada....get off the Maple Leaf and clear US CBP in the new station.....just as they do now.
You could also increase train service.....run the summer weekend Toronto-Niagara GO Trains across the border to the new Station. Passengers would clear US CBP then catch the next Empire Service train to New York. In reverse, passengers arrive on an Empire Service train; clear Canada’s CBSA on the US side then board a GO Train to continue onto Toronto.
With some tweaking of schedules.....besides the Maple Leaf, there could be at least one additional connecting service a day each way.
(I believe the new Amtrak Station has high level platforms so something would have to be done to accommodate GO Bi-levels)
ghCBNS The new station is already on the border.....you couldn't get any closer unless it was built in the centre of the bridge. Do somethig similar to what is done in Vancouver BC now and what is proposed for Montreal in a year or two.....US and Canadian officers work in the same facility. When I fly to the US from Canada...I go through through US CBP here (US officers working on Canadian soil) When my flight lands in the US I just walk off and I'm on my way...no further inspection. Here Canadian officers would would work in the US.....Passengers would get off the Maple Leaf and go thru Canada CBSA in the new Station....the reboard to continue into Canada. In reverse.....passengers arriving from Canada....get off the Maple Leaf and clear US CBP in the new station.....just as they do now. You could also increase train service.....run the summer weekend Toronto-Niagara GO Trains across the border to the new Station. Passengers would clear US CBP then catch the next Empire Service train to New York. In reverse, passengers arrive on an Empire Service train; clear Canada’s CBSA on the US side then board a GO Train to continue onto Toronto. With some tweaking of schedules.....besides the Maple Leaf, there could be at least one additional connecting service a day each way. (I believe the new Amtrak Station has high level platforms so something would have to be done to accommodate GO Bi-levels)
The Maple Leaf is the last train to New York City each day.
As I said.....with some tweeking of schedules......
If Amtrak, VIA and GO wanted an additional frequency to work...I sure adjustments could be made. (I Would love to see the Niagara Rainbow return on summer weekends!)
It's just disappointing to me that two friendly countries with the longest undefended border in the world cannot figure these things out between themselves and streamline border crossings. It's like the number of bridges between Detroit and Canada.....build before the capacity constraints are reached. I shouldn't have to sit in traffic for 2-3 hours waiting to cross the damn border into Canada from Detroit when there is an event over there (and vice versa). How long is Detroit going to wait before Canada pays for the new bridge connecting the two countries? It is just dumb this stuff keeps happening over and over again and it is not helping either country economically.
CJtrainguyEven in the olden days with extremely strict border controls crossing into East-Germany, the energetic passenger controls were handled in the moving train. Then an inspection for stowaways under the train at the actual border and on the train went.
Depends on the train. As you know the U.S. Army operated two passenger trains across Germany on a triweekly basis. One that ran lengthwise from the port of Bremerhaven to Frankfurt, and the second that ran crosswise from Frankfurt, through East Germany to West Berlin both intersected in Hannover I believe.
At any rate, the U.S. Army train had an appointed train commander, usually a 1LT or CPT who would have the paperwork (printed official Orders) of each Soldier on the train. No Russians or East Germans were allowed ON the train period. After crossing the Iron Curtain the Train would stop for the guards to search the undercarriages for escapees with German Shepards and Mirrors. However the American Officer had to detrain with the Paperwork and present himself to a Soviet Military FLAG officer that was at the station as the United States never recognized the authority of East German anything. American Officer would have to Salute the Russian Officer while the Russian Flag Officer looked through the paperwork and stamped it. Once that was done the American Officer boarded the train and we were on our way again.
The Border road crossing procedure into East Berlin was handled differently. The East German border guards would board the U.S. Army bus (Olive Drab Mercedes of course......spared no expense) at Checkpoint Charlie and ask to see everyones U.S. Army identification card. If they found any expired they would use it as a pretext to beotch but there was nothing the East Germans could do more than delay the crossing because we did not recognize them as the border authority we only recognized the Russians as controlling the East German border. So if the East Germans delayed our folks would call the Russians and the Russians would pull back on the East German leash. Little bit of a tangent here but it is Cold War history after all.
People move freely among the different states with few problems, why do we have this absurd paranoia about people moving between countries?
What is the origin of our insane urge to choose up sides? Black against white, management against labor, liberal against conservative, etc. We compete instead of co-operate.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet People move freely among the different states with few problems, why do we have this absurd paranoia about people moving between countries? What is the origin of our insane urge to choose up sides? Black against white, management against labor, liberal against conservative, etc. We compete instead of co-operate.
Only a small part of the rules for social interaction within a community are written down and enforced as laws. Most of these rules are customs, conventions, and accepted ways of doing things. They are established, learned, and enforced by growing up in a community and by a miriad of social interactions, some spoken others not, that have the effect of establishing norms of social conformity.
People move freely among the different states with few problems? I guess, but there are some problems. Visitors from Illinois have a reputation of lording it over the native Wisconsinites, and there is a common expression for such visitors that I won't repeat here. As a consequence, when people ask me where I am from, I say, "Wisconsin, far southern Wisconsin" although my grating nasal accent probably gives me away as having spent my language formation years in Park Ridge. My friends and neighbors and coworkers may be gracious enough not to clue me in on how demanding and assertive I can be. After living in Wisconsin for the last 34 years, and when I recently joined a fruit-growing club in the greater Chicago area and drove down the Tollway to attend some meetings, I was thinking, "What's the deal with these people, they certainly have some strong opinions that they don't keep to themselves!"
I remember having to move some boxes and furniture into my house, borrowing my Dad's minivan and parking it on the street in front of my house. I guess in my West Side neighborhood where the houses have driveways and 2-car garages, the social conformity is that you park on your property instead of on the street, although on-street parking is perfectly legal so long you follow the snow-emergency parking restrictions, and one neighbor who is a contractor parks his work van in front of his house on the street.
So Dad's minivan got pelted with raw eggs. This seemingly minor vandalism can wreck the paint. And no, this wasn't done by minority or disadvantaged teens living in the Section 8 public housing that is a good mile-long walk away. In all likelihood this was done by "kids" in the neighborhood, white kids, wealth kids, kids of considerable privilege in the scheme of things. And they probably didn't get the idea on their own but rather from remarks made by their parents about "the neighbor parking that ugly van out front."
There is this college professor and expert on the wars fought in Ancient Greece (he is an expert on people "not getting along" in the ancient world) who blogs about his experience operating the family raisin farm in Central California. There are a lot of immigrants in his community, and he complains on his Web page that they do stuff. Stuff looking to see if anyone is around and if not, dumping garbage on his property. Lots of garbage, lots of nasty, smelly icky garbage. And if looks like the "coast is clear", helping themselves to stuff from his farm such as the copper wiring to run his irrigation pump for his grape vines.
And I am sure this all is simply a cultural misunderstanding between Professor Hanson with his Scandinavian-influenced upbringing and his neighbors. Who are from a part of the world where a wealthy person such as the Professor (and he is wealthy to have that (tenured!) faculty position, to be author of books on Greek Civilization, and to own all of that land), that this padrone of the hacienda would better guard his land, putting up better gates and barriers to entry, and maybe not being such a self-reliant cheapskate to do everything himself and share some of his money to hire one of these poor immigrants to stand guard over the estate.
But I guess Dr. Hanson hasn't gotten the message regarding a different kind of social conformity, the social conformity of his fellow professors who are quick to shame anyone and everyone who thinks that the social friction described above is any reason to support a bombastic and jingoistic political candidate with orange hair. My university recently gave an award to one of our own in recognition for his scholarly books on Latin America. This colleague use his acceptance speech as an opportunity to denounce this man with orange hair who wants to build a wall against all of the peoples of Lain America.
Can a U.S. scholar on Latin America really be that ignorant of the topic of Latin America, who the people are and what they are like? It seems to me that a wealth "big man" type of guy with odd looking hair and on his third (trophy) wife who shoots off his mouth and appeals to nationalistic sentiments to get elected is almost characteristic of Latin America. No, not every political leader south of Texas is like that, but it seems to me that since the time when many people from Latin America were admitted to the U.S., many if not most as legal immigrants by the way, that the U.S. might not be taking a tiny bit of the characteristics of some of the societies and cultures from which our new citizens have their roots? And that one of the characteristics of Latin America in contrast with the U.S. is that the kind of Puritan-rooted shaming that would be a barrier to Donald Trump in political life here, that this is not how things work in other parts of this large world of ours?
What does this have to do with Amtrak and the Niagara Falls U.S. and Niagara Falls Canada train stations? I guess many in the U.S. don't see much in the way of cultural friction with people from Canada apart from saying "aboot!" and "eh!" to give themselves away. If it were not from people from Canada making such a big deal about it, I would have had no idea that William Shatner, Alex Trebeck, (the late) Peter Jennings, Gordon Lightfoot, Anne Murray, and Celine Dione (alright already, maybe there is a little but of cultural friction) were/are Canadians.
The people in Canada, however, may see things a little different. Do you suppose Canada is like Wisconsin and the U.S. is like Illinois? And the people in Canada are being polite in their Canadian upbringing not to clue people from the U.S. in on what they do to make themselves welcome as tourists-but-let's-keep-it-at-that? Forget that, I have known many people from Canada, and they do clue us in.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
1. People overgeneralizing is at the root of many of our problems of the sort you describe. One sees it all over. Sad.
2. The headline of this thread seems a bit misleading. Amtrak will be moving to the new station shortly
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I am addressing a very "hot button" political issue, but it was raised by "what is the big deal about the Niagara NY and Niagara Ontaria train stations" and all of the inconvenience inflicted on passengers. What is so "foreign" about (Canada!), anyway.
I guess most in the U.S. would not have a problem with an open border with Canada whereas many if not most of us would be OK with an open border with Mexico? Or so we say so as not be go against social shaming?
What I am trying to say is that both Canada as well as Mexico, especially Mexico but you don't think about it that way, would have problems with a border that was reciprocally open with the U.S. Remember Texas? It was part of Mexico, there was an open border with the U.S., and it didn't work out that well for Mexico.
Former president Vincente Fox, however, had a vision of an open border between the U.S. and Mexico. As far as I could tell, his vision was of an open borders going in both directions, and as the first president from PAN (National Action Party), we was offering new ideas that the long-ruling PRI (Institutional Revolutionary Party) would never dare consider.
As he explained when interviewed on U.S. political talk shows, his proposed "opening to the U.S." would help build up Mexico closer to parity with the U.S., benefiting the people of Mexico through the resulting prosperity, but also allowing an open border without the fear of a flood of poor Mexicans. He invoked the analogy of Spain and Germany, where the once desperately poor Spain had advanced to the point that Spain and Germany could allow reciprocal immigration and free movement of their peoples (this preceded the EU "Schengen" treaty).
Vincente Fox's "vision" didn't go over well in the U.S. ("Open border with Mexico, like that is going to happen") as well as with Mexico (remember Texas!). But maybe we have moved in that direction as Mexico became wealthier post NAFTA and the U.S. because a little less wealthy post 2008 Economic Crisis, and there isn't quite the same "pressure" for Mexicans to come to the U.S. in violation of immigration laws? That many of the Latin Americans presenting themselves as refugees on our border are Central Americans whom the Mexican government looked the other way to transit Mexico but who are not welcome in Mexico?
I guess what I am saying is that one can sing John Lennon's "Imagine" and imagine a world without national borders where we can get along, and if we can't get along perfectly, we would be tolerant of our neighbor's cultural "diversity"?
But you can't get people around here who like trains to not post about their experience riding long-distance in a coach seat next to someone with whom they experienced "cultural friction" along with a scolding post (from a forum participant from Illinois!) that the experience be written about?
schlimm Phoebe Vet People move freely among the different states with few problems, why do we have this absurd paranoia about people moving between countries? What is the origin of our insane urge to choose up sides? Black against white, management against labor, liberal against conservative, etc. We compete instead of co-operate. 1. People overgeneralizing is at the root of many of our problems of the sort you describe. One sees it all over. Sad. 2. The headline of this thread seems a bit misleading. Amtrak will be moving to the new station shortly
schlimm 1. People overgeneralizing is at the root of many of our problems of the sort you describe . . .
1. People overgeneralizing is at the root of many of our problems of the sort you describe . . .
Really?
schlimm 1. . . . One sees it all over. Sad.
1. . . . One sees it all over. Sad.
Overgeneralizing? By people all over? Really!
Paul Milenkovic Phoebe Vet People move freely among the different states with few problems, why do we have this absurd paranoia about people moving between countries? What is the origin of our insane urge to choose up sides? Black against white, management against labor, liberal against conservative, etc. We compete instead of co-operate. Only a small part of the rules for social interaction within a community are written down and enforced as laws. Most of these rules are customs, conventions, and accepted ways of doing things. They are established, learned, and enforced by growing up in a community and by a miriad of social interactions, some spoken others not, that have the effect of establishing norms of social conformity. People move freely among the different states with few problems? I guess, but there are some problems. Visitors from Illinois have a reputation of lording it over the native Wisconsinites, and there is a common expression for such visitors that I won't repeat here. As a consequence, when people ask me where I am from, I say, "Wisconsin, far southern Wisconsin" although my grating nasal accent probably gives me away as having spent my language formation years in Park Ridge. My friends and neighbors and coworkers may be gracious enough not to clue me in on how demanding and assertive I can be. After living in Wisconsin for the last 34 years, and when I recently joined a fruit-growing club in the greater Chicago area and drove down the Tollway to attend some meetings, I was thinking, "What's the deal with these people, they certainly have some strong opinions that they don't keep to themselves!" I remember having to move some boxes and furniture into my house, borrowing my Dad's minivan and parking it on the street in front of my house. I guess in my West Side neighborhood where the houses have driveways and 2-car garages, the social conformity is that you park on your property instead of on the street, although on-street parking is perfectly legal so long you follow the snow-emergency parking restrictions, and one neighbor who is a contractor parks his work van in front of his house on the street. So Dad's minivan got pelted with raw eggs. This seemingly minor vandalism can wreck the paint. And no, this wasn't done by minority or disadvantaged teens living in the Section 8 public housing that is a good mile-long walk away. In all likelihood this was done by "kids" in the neighborhood, white kids, wealth kids, kids of considerable privilege in the scheme of things. And they probably didn't get the idea on their own but rather from remarks made by their parents about "the neighbor parking that ugly van out front." There is this college professor and expert on the wars fought in Ancient Greece (he is an expert on people "not getting along" in the ancient world) who blogs about his experience operating the family raisin farm in Central California. There are a lot of immigrants in his community, and he complains on his Web page that they do stuff. Stuff looking to see if anyone is around and if not, dumping garbage on his property. Lots of garbage, lots of nasty, smelly icky garbage. And if looks like the "coast is clear", helping themselves to stuff from his farm such as the copper wiring to run his irrigation pump for his grape vines. And I am sure this all is simply a cultural misunderstanding between Professor Hanson with his Scandinavian-influenced upbringing and his neighbors. Who are from a part of the world where a wealthy person such as the Professor (and he is wealthy to have that (tenured!) faculty position, to be author of books on Greek Civilization, and to own all of that land), that this padrone of the hacienda would better guard his land, putting up better gates and barriers to entry, and maybe not being such a self-reliant cheapskate to do everything himself and share some of his money to hire one of these poor immigrants to stand guard over the estate. But I guess Dr. Hanson hasn't gotten the message regarding a different kind of social conformity, the social conformity of his fellow professors who are quick to shame anyone and everyone who thinks that the social friction described above is any reason to support a bombastic and jingoistic political candidate with orange hair. My university recently gave an award to one of our own in recognition for his scholarly books on Latin America. This colleague use his acceptance speech as an opportunity to denounce this man with orange hair who wants to build a wall against all of the peoples of Lain America. Can a U.S. scholar on Latin America really be that ignorant of the topic of Latin America, who the people are and what they are like? It seems to me that a wealth "big man" type of guy with odd looking hair and on his third (trophy) wife who shoots off his mouth and appeals to nationalistic sentiments to get elected is almost characteristic of Latin America. No, not every political leader south of Texas is like that, but it seems to me that since the time when many people from Latin America were admitted to the U.S., many if not most as legal immigrants by the way, that the U.S. might not be taking a tiny bit of the characteristics of some of the societies and cultures from which our new citizens have their roots? And that one of the characteristics of Latin America in contrast with the U.S. is that the kind of Puritan-rooted shaming that would be a barrier to Donald Trump in political life here, that this is not how things work in other parts of this large world of ours? What does this have to do with Amtrak and the Niagara Falls U.S. and Niagara Falls Canada train stations? I guess many in the U.S. don't see much in the way of cultural friction with people from Canada apart from saying "aboot!" and "eh!" to give themselves away. If it were not from people from Canada making such a big deal about it, I would have had no idea that William Shatner, Alex Trebeck, (the late) Peter Jennings, Gordon Lightfoot, Anne Murray, and Celine Dione (alright already, maybe there is a little but of cultural friction) were/are Canadians. The people in Canada, however, may see things a little different. Do you suppose Canada is like Wisconsin and the U.S. is like Illinois? And the people in Canada are being polite in their Canadian upbringing not to clue people from the U.S. in on what they do to make themselves welcome as tourists-but-let's-keep-it-at-that? Forget that, I have known many people from Canada, and they do clue us in.
So you need to ask Trains for a SUMMARIZE button I think......lol.
Anyways, I live in Texas and I have worked on Mexican IT projects. Mexico is an interesting country politically. Mexico City is viewed just like "inside the beltway" is in the United States. Did you know that most of the Northern Mexico states are highly pro-American and would succeed from Mexico and join the United States if they could do so without issues?. I was out to lunch with one of them in the outskirts of Mexico City and the guy yells he wish he could shoot the Mexican President (I nervously told him, he could be taken in for questioning if he did that in the United States and it would be taken as a threat).....to which he responded..."Not here, nobody cares and some people want to see him dead" (heh). This guy was a middle class computer programmer too. Anyways, the Southern States along the border with Guatemala seem more bent on social justice and revolution (I was told by my lunchmate there is good reason for that because the government screwed them more than once). The middles states seem to be ambivalent and comfortable where they are. So interesting country politically.
The proposed wall is interpreted two ways. If you live along the border it is looked at as protection from the criminals and gangs that have overtaken the Southern side (Mexico) and sometimes forget where the border is and accidently cross over. So thats why they want a wall or a clear border demarcation.
Farther North they see it as stopping or reducing illegal immigration.
For me personally, I visit Canada and I do not see transports full of Armed Marines ready to go a few streets over. I do see that in parts of Mexico City though. So I would be concerned about an open border with Mexico until they stabilize things a little more down there.
Upstate NY Amtrak Train Sets still need to be serviced and cleaned. As of now the best facility is up the road near Niagara University.
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