[from MHSRA] "The Beijing-Shanghai High Speed Railway just celebrated its fifth anniversary. The 820-mile long railway is the longest high speed line be built in a single phase. It was constructed in just over 3 years for a cost of $34.7 billion. This line is a critical section of China’s rail network, serving two of the biggest economic centers in the world and close to a quarter of China’s population.Express trains travel from Shanghai to Beijing, a comparable distance as New York-Chicago, in just five hours while traveling up to 186mph. With 34 round-trips offered every day, the service has attracted over 100 million passenger-trips/year. Tickets begin at $81 and the line has been successful to the point of generating an operating profit in recent years. Imagine a future where a high-speed train could take you from Chicago’s Union Station to New York's Penn Station in under 5 hours. You can do that in China right now."
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
And we will have such a thing in the U.S. -- when it can get built for 34.7 billion dollars . . .
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul Milenkovic And we will have such a thing in the U.S. -- when it can get built for 34.7 billion dollars . . .
You may be right, Paul, but I have the feeling that even if the gods were to offer the American people and nation an absolutely free HS rail line from Chicago to New York...we still wouldn't be able to build it. Can you imagine all the squabbling such a project would entail? The unending lawsuits and reviews; why, the attorney bills for one month alone would exceed the $34 billion mentioned.
And yet, maybe that's not such a bad thing. The Chinese were able to build their line (in only 3 years? Astonishing!) because they are saddled with a totalitarian government that can simply impose its will on the populace. We Americans would never stand for such a thing, no matter how much good a shiny new HS line would do us. This isn't a weakness of democracy, but rather a strength. After all, who here really likes the kind of brutal eminent domain that would be necessary?
So HS for us is out. I'd settle for modern, conventional trains between New York and Chicago that we could be proud of. But given this Congress, that's probably out for us, too.
NKP guy Paul Milenkovic And we will have such a thing in the U.S. -- when it can get built for 34.7 billion dollars . . . You may be right, Paul, but I have the feeling that even if the gods were to offer the American people and nation an absolutely free HS rail line from Chicago to New York...we still wouldn't be able to build it. Can you imagine all the squabbling such a project would entail? The unending lawsuits and reviews; why, the attorney bills for one month alone would exceed the $34 billion mentioned. And yet, maybe that's not such a bad thing. The Chinese were able to build their line (in only 3 years? Astonishing!) because they are saddled with a totalitarian government that can simply impose its will on the populace. We Americans would never stand for such a thing, no matter how much good a shiny new HS line would do us. This isn't a weakness of democracy, but rather a strength. After all, who here really likes the kind of brutal eminent domain that would be necessary? So HS for us is out. I'd settle for modern, conventional trains between New York and Chicago that we could be proud of. But given this Congress, that's probably out for us, too.
It's sad. Japan, the UK, Europe, etc. are also democratic but they manage to find ways to build HSR. And actually very little happens in China without considerable support from stakeholders.
The main obstacle to infrastructure improvements here is an over-emphasis on supposed individual rights (often just entitlement) vs the benefits to society. However, we did build an Interstate Highway System by disguising it as National Defense in the 50s-70s. Probably could not today. But we think nothing of building 3 outmoded aircraft carriers @ $12+ billion a pop, plus billions more for support ships and the aircraft. The AMTR program (replaces M113) costs only $10.7 billion. The F-35 program will cost at least $339 billion. In 2014 we had $1.436 trillion on the books for the defense acquisition portfolio.
This claims to be the Passenger Forum "the place to discuss Amtrak, the future of passenger rail, and high speed proposals" But an outsider would think it's "the place to discuss Amtrak, the glorious past of passenger rail and dismiss/belittle high speed proposals."
Do we think that there would be a big conflict between the NIMBYs and the persons who say " You cannot by pass my city " note how it is occurring already in California.
blue streak 1 Do we think that there would be a big conflict between the NIMBYs and the persons who say " You cannot by pass my city " note how it is occurring already in California.
If somebody could come up with a really fast, very inexpensive way to drill tunnels the HSR could be run underground. Taking a route without exercising eminent domain on anything at ground level wouldn't put a cork in the NIMBY faction, but it would extract most of their legal teeth.
As for this Congress (aka Stonewall Central,) in less than six months we'll have a new (improved?) Congress...
The one major impediment to building any kind of non-road transportation system in the US is the average citizen's love affair with the private automobile. The push for roads over HSR isn't just roadbuilders and truckers at work.
As for the complaint about how much military hardware the US has, I don't know about you, citizen, but I have no desire to learn Arabic so I can read the Q'ran...
Chuck [Msgt(ret) USAF]
tomikawaTT As for this Congress (aka Stonewall Central,) in less than six months we'll have a new (improved?) Congress...
Dream on my child! No matter who wins stagnation will remain firmly in place.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tomikawaTTAs for the complaint about how much military hardware the US has, I don't know about you, citizen, but I have no desire to learn Arabic so I can read the Q'ran..
Nor do I, but much of the military hardware we keep acquiring is for fighting previous wars.
NKP guy I'd settle for modern, conventional trains between New York and Chicago that we could be proud of.
I'd settle for modern, conventional trains between New York and Chicago that we could be proud of.
schlimm tomikawaTT As for the complaint about how much military hardware the US has, I don't know about you, citizen, but I have no desire to learn Arabic so I can read the Q'ran.. Nor do I, but much of the military hardware we keep acquiring is for fighting previous wars.
tomikawaTT As for the complaint about how much military hardware the US has, I don't know about you, citizen, but I have no desire to learn Arabic so I can read the Q'ran..
A British field marshal and military theorist named Archibald Wavell once said, and it's just as true today as it was back then...
"Pepare for war, but not for a war."
Although if someone wants to opine that the war on terror is one that should be fought by predominantly covert operations and not massive military engagements I won't disagree.
Getting WAY off topic, I'm going to stop now.
schlimmNor do I, but much of the military hardware we keep acquiring is for fighting previous wars.
Yes and no. Let me say a few things here. I liked Ronald Reagan as President, really did but that man prolifically lied several times to the American People about where we were involved military in the 1980's and what our military was actually doing. So thats #1. I am pretty sure that is true of all Presidents including the current one.
#2 is, you do not see all the equipment the military has on Active Service today even most of those in the military do not see it all. Some of it used for SOAR, SF, Navy SEALs etc is kept out of view. I would have a real hard time believing even with their espionage that the Russians and Chinese know everything we have in our military arsenal. Which I will say if they ever go to war with us, part of their decision to fight the United States will be based on guesses and estimates NOT certainties.
#3, kind of agree with you on military equipment but in the area of military technology the DoD is not much different than NASA with innovation in the areas of food and food logistics, communications, visual line of sight technology (scopes and sights), medical. A lot of the medical your going to experience in retirement is from innovations learned and made in the last few wars. Innovation increases during wartime by a factor of two because they have a running lab with subjects (battlefield). However, innovation does not stop in peacetime.
Last item and back on topic since it is trains related. Shocked to learn in the 1980's the DoD actually did build two missile firing trains for using our railway network to conceal and fire Nuclear missiles. Never heard about it in the 1980's. Both are still stored serviceable I hear but I have no idea where or if it is true they were not scrapped.
So, according to our posters, HSR is unlikely NYC-CHI. Too expensive, NIMBYs, auto society, et al..
I think the main problem is that it is too long of a corridor to be competative with the airlines at over 700 miles CBD-CBD (disregarding geography). There are plenty of corridors in the US were HSR makes more sense.
schlimm [from MHSRA] "Imagine a future where a high-speed train could take you from Chicago’s Union Station to New York's Penn Station in under 5 hours. You can do that in China right now."
[from MHSRA] "Imagine a future where a high-speed train could take you from Chicago’s Union Station to New York's Penn Station in under 5 hours. You can do that in China right now."
Yes, you can build an 800-mile 186 MPH HSR line in China in 3 years time for 34 odd billion dollars equivalent, and you can also do that "right now" (or they have recently done just that).
You cannot build such a thing in the U.S. in that amount of time for that amount of money, or even imagine a future where such a thing would become possible. I suppose we once could do such a thing, at least for highways, where such empire-building visionaries as Robert Moses in New York and Edmund G Brown in California just built stuff, for the common and greater good, exercising eminent domain as required without concern for the preservation of working-class ethnic and minority city neighborhoods to access big-city central districts.
Yes, I guess it is sad that we don't have men like Bob Moses and Pat Brown anymore, to disregard the individual rights of a large number of low-status citizens in expressing the national will. This was once done for highways, why can't we trample on persons in lower-income neighborhoods in the same way to get trains? We just don't have people in charge who are any good channeling the national will.
Yes, it is also sad that this place is supposed to be about discussing plans for HSR and all you get for quoting the Midwest High Speed Rail Associations sunny optimism is a bunch of naysaying pushback from all of the hardened cynics around here. Never mind that optimistic cost figures, completion dates, and performance figures were offered for the California HSR, which will eventually be completed by Edmund G "Jerry" Brown, Jr. Or by his DNA clone or robotic avatar. Sad, yes, very gloomy and sad.
Personally, I don't think any discussion of this railway that doesn't take up the points contained in this article has quite put the development in context. Note the likely effects if you were to extrapolate these policies to a 'counterpart' in the United States, say New York-Chicago.
The article is out of date (2011). The Beijing-Shanghai line has been a rousing success since then. 100 million Chinese ride it each year. It runs as promised: dependable, fast, affordable. It turns a profit on operations. We should be so fortunate as to have anything comparable. I've ridden it and it's a fine experience. It seems instead of an obvious "sour grapes" reaction, we should attempt to learn from it or the projects in a dozen or so other countries.
NorthWest I think the main problem is that it is too long of a corridor to be competative with the airlines at over 700 miles CBD-CBD (disregarding geography). There are plenty of corridors in the US were HSR makes more sense.
I believe vastly improved NY - Chicago service is possible if it is designed to also optimize service for the intermediate corridors, simply extendinat New York State is seriously doing between NY and Buffalo. Five hours, no, but three 10-hour daytime trains, spaced two-hours apart, going all the way and stopping at Croton-Harmon, Albany, Schenectity, Utica, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Erie, Cleveland, Toledo, Elkhart, South Bend, Englewood, and Union Station Chicago, with other trains going and returning part-way from both end-points, and one sleeper over-nighter, would cerainly be viable. And people would use it, even if a majority of the passengers would not be end-to-end even on the four thru trains. Most seats and even a few berths would see two occupants during the through-trains trips.
The competitive service via Pennsylvania has the necessary cities for a corredor, but the sticking point is the huge expense of trying to provide high-speed between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh. An inexpensive way of boaring tunnels would be a great help.
I haven't used Englewood statoin in many years. Is it still safe to use or is it like North Philadelphia Station where the surrounding neighborhod is awful?
Englewood Station is NO MORE. It has been demolished. The former Rock Island (Metra) line now "flys over" the the NS line (former PRR). The times have changed. See:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Englewood,+Chicago,+IL/@41.7798103,-87.6277741,151m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x880e2f1e38e95789:0xd23d0beb5f2bb946!8m2!3d41.775305!4d-87.6416419
daveklepperI believe vastly improved NY - Chicago service is possible if it is designed to also optimize service for the intermediate corridors, simply extendinat New York State is seriously doing between NY and Buffalo. Five hours, no, but three 10-hour daytime trains, spaced two-hours apart, going all the way and stopping at Croton-Harmon, Albany, Schenectity, Utica, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Erie, Cleveland, Toledo, Elkhart, South Bend, Englewood, and Union Station Chicago, with other trains going and returning part-way from both end-points, and one sleeper over-nighter, would cerainly be viable.
It's a start, but having seven stops in New York State (and only five in PA, OH, and IN) when it already has Empire service makes little sense. The top speed of the Chinese train is beyond our capability, but surely 220 kmh (137 mph) is not. Thus you could cut intermediate stops to four (Albany, Buffalo, Cleveland, South Bend) and make the run in a very competitive seven+ hours.
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