So I wrote an Email to a Manager at WisDOT that works in the passenger rail program and suggested it might be cheaper if the 2nd frequency followed the old overnight schedule into St. Paul that the former NorthStar had and if it was exclusively a night train on that timetable they could probably drop the lounge and dining car.
He responded back that he thought the costs savings were interesting and he would pass that info onto both CP Rail and Amtrak.
However, WisDOT and the communities along the line wanted a daytime frequency and he said that Amtrak's preferred passenger train model during the day was that its trains arrive at their final destinations at the lastest at 9 p.m. local time (this last part I thought was interesting and did not realize before and would explain lack of overnight trains across Amtrak's system).
Also interesting they are still working the 2nd Frequency as a goal, might not be in the next few years but still a good deal that it is still on their plate to persue.
A better suggestion might be an 8:00AM departure from Chicago on the westbound run and a 2:00PM departure from the Twin Cities on the eastbound run.
Morning Hiawatha westbound and Afternoon Hiawatha eastbound?
Johnny
I am assuming you mean 2nd frequency between Chicago and Minneapolis, not Chicago and Milwaukee as there is more than one train between Chicago and Milwaukee.
Chicago and Minneapolis by today's speeds is roughly an 8 hour trip. If we had overnight service, you could leave at one endpoint late night and arrive at the other early in the morning the next day, literally sleeping most of the time. To account for Milwaukee (and the Chicago suburbs), the ideal schedules would be roughly:
Westbound: Chicago 10pm, Milwaukee midnight, Minneapolis 6am next day
Eastbound: Minneapolis midnight, Milwaukee 6am next day, Chicago 8am
Certainly it would be better for a 2nd train to have "daytime" hours but maybe if we get to 3-4 trains a day one can serve this schedule.
Or if we have 2 or 3 day trains, maybe the Empire Builder can use this schedule. The trains would leave Seattle and Portland early in the morning and arrive in Chicago early in the morning. The westbound would leave Chicago late at night and arrive in the west coast around dinnertime. Spokane would be outside of the graveyard shift both ways then. I'd also pair this up with a Cardinal shift so it can serve Indianapolis and Cincinnati at better hours (leave Chicago around noon and arrive in Chicago around 6pm) so Cardinal-Empire Builder transfers are still possible. If the EB arrives in Chicago early and leaves late you would virtually never miss your connection to/from the Capitol Limited or Lake Shore Limited.
In terms of serving the Twin Cities-Chicago market, moving the Empire Builder to overnight makes the most sense, but Amtrak may not do it since it would mean boring North Dakota would be traversed during the daytime, and the scenic Rockies at night. Personally as a Twin Cities resident I would like any option other than the Empire Builder to go to Chicago. I will ride it from Chicago to MSP, but not the other way around as the timekeeping is so awful. I have heard it's a bit better now that the oil traffic has slowed, but I'm not sure I'm willing to risk an 8 hour late train yet.
Deggesty Morning Hiawatha westbound and Afternoon Hiawatha eastbound?
I think that is what they are aiming for.
How about Ed Ellis (Iowa Pacific) on a conference call to Warren Buffett and Illinois Railway Museum? Run the Nebraska Zephyr from Chicago Union Station to St. Paul Union Station and back on BNSF. Maybe in conjunction with Bears-Vikings games, Northwestern Wildcats-Minnesota Gophers game, White Sox or Cubs-Twins games, Bulls-Timberwolves games.
Where nature smiles for 300 miles!
One can dream.
Would the upgrading of the E5 and the train to Amtrak reliability standards be worthwhile for IRM, BNSF,and Amtrak? And then orovide a weekly regular nostalgic service?
GrampWhere nature smiles for 300 miles!
400 miles, as in the CNW "400"
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Gramp Where nature smiles for 300 miles! 400 miles, as in the CNW "400"
Gramp Where nature smiles for 300 miles!
I think large portions of the former Chicago to Twin Cities 400 line have been abandoned or downgraded that is no longer feasible price wise. Be cheaper to restore the Hiawatha's. Though the BNSF (former CB&Q) route is also still in pretty good shape.
daveklepper Would the upgrading of the E5 and the train to Amtrak reliability standards be worthwhile for IRM, BNSF,and Amtrak? And then orovide a weekly regular nostalgic service?
CMStPnP schlimm Gramp Where nature smiles for 300 miles! 400 miles, as in the CNW "400" I think large portions of the former Chicago to Twin Cities 400 line have been abandoned or downgraded that is no longer feasible price wise. Be cheaper to restore the Hiawatha's. Though the BNSF (former CB&Q) route is also still in pretty good shape.
Definitely! CNW's 400 quit well before the Morning and Afternoon Hiawathas and Zephyrs did.
Much as I liked the Q's operation, the Hiawatha route serves more large cities, especially if there were some way to route through Madison.
schlimmDefinitely! CNW's 400 quit well before the Morning and Afternoon Hiawathas and Zephyrs did. Much as I liked the Q's operation, the Hiawatha route serves more large cities, especially if there were some way to route through Madison.
Milwaukee had a decent route through Madison but downgraded the Eastern portion to a series of 10-15 mph slow orders, then sold the route to Wisconsin & Southern (Watertown - Madison), the part that CP retains and still operates (Portage to Madison) is in good shape still. Fix up the Watertown to Madison portion and you have a through route to Madison and onto the Twin Cities but the segment to serve Madison is 33-40% longer in miles than the segment to just stay on the mainline and stop in Columbus........so it's a time hit to the Milwaukee to Twin Cities running times as far as HSR goes. I think thats why Milwaukee preferred to serve Madison from Chicago over the Metra Fox Lake line instead of via Milwaukee, then onto Madison. Commuter rail was paying for more of the coverage Chicago to Madison on the Fox Lake line then it was on the Chicago to Milwaukee Madison route.
Milwaukee Road attempted to get the City of Milwaukee into the Commuter rail game from Milwaukee to Watertown and ran that route at a loss for a full year after Amtrak took over but the City of Milwaukee eventually said NO.
The North Western did have through passenger service Chicago-Madison-Twin Cities--but there apparently was not much traffic on them, and they did not last as long as the service via Milwaukee lasted.
Nature smiles for 300 miles was the Burlington slogan. From Savanna, Ill. to the Twin Cities, hugging the Mississippi along the way. Very picturesque.
Here's Nebraska Zephyr stretching its legs in 2012.
Travelogue: Ed Ellis on board.
Ah well, at least we get the Nickel Plate Road Berhshire #765 steaming to Galesburg Railroad Days from Chicago Union Station next month (June 25-26th) Surprised they got Amtrak to co-sponsor.
CMStPnPthe segment to serve Madison is 33-40% longer in miles than the segment to just stay on the mainline and stop in Columbus........so it's a time hit to the Milwaukee to Twin Cities running times as far as HSR goes.
1. Connecting the #2 metro area in WI to MKE, CHI and MSP is important for ridership.
2. If HSR or even HRSR, the additional time wouldn't be such a big deal.
schlimm1. Connecting the #2 metro area in WI to MKE, CHI and MSP is important for ridership. 2. If HSR or even HRSR, the additional time wouldn't be such a big deal.
I don't disagree it just the cost of doing that initially is steep because of the urbanization in and around Madison. I think they just need to spend the money and get it done. Chicago-Milwaukee is not that far from 90-100 mph operation, track condition wise. They used to have a Brookfield-Waukesha branch that would have been excellent for passenger rail, ROW remains for the shortcut but WisDOT removed it from their rail bank because of NIMBY protests the last time W&S made an attempt to reactivate it. No idea what the status is, rail and steel bridges are still in place but very overgrown.
They should bring Watertown to Madison line up to standards and extend some of the Hiawatha runs from Chicago.
Back to C&NW their former Lakefront line North out of the City still exists largely as a bike path and if they ever brought the 400 Service back, putting that line back in place could get trains out of town significantly faster than the Milwaukee Road to Duplainvile then onto Oskosh routing over CN. I don't think they will do that though as thats primarily where the Wealthy multi-millionaires live in Milwaukee, on that bluff overlooking the lake with the former C&NW line between them and the lake. They would have a fit.
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