Has Amtrak ever considered expanding Wolverine or Blue Water to London Ontario or St. John New Brunswick via the Downeaster?
Before the combination of customs problems and relatively low ridership stopped it, the "International" ran Chicago-Port Huron/Sarnia Toronto via London Ont using Amtrak and VIA equipment. The current "Blue Water" is the remnant.
zkr123Has Amtrak ever considered expanding Wolverine or Blue Water to London Ontario?
This was covered extensively in at least one recent thread (about service across the border at Detroit), and I think before that in a thread involving -- my temples tighten at bit at the memory -- Amtrak 'restoring' the old LRC consist built for it to use for the Canadian service.
Personally I still would love to see a service from Detroit through Toronto to Buffalo, with European-style expedited trans-border processing. This of course would serve London from Detroit easily. Part of the problem is that most of the actual rail traffic going to Toronto would be from the New York end, on the Maple Leaf, with less coming from depressed old Detroit and a connection from Chicago to Toronto being made through Buffalo, domestically, rather than going through Canada -- again, I find it hard to believe the CASO has been rubbed out!
The point about the existing Amtrak service is that it is largely subsidized by American states. Why would Michigan, for example, want to subsidize an expansion to a Canadian city? Why would London, or VIA for that matter, want to subsidize an American service when it already provides its own to the extent Canadians apparently want or need service?
It's a good thought, but how about service to like scraton pa (nj transit) or a cinny to alanta to fl. My point lots of routes in the us not being served.
Seems to me there was a recent discussion about Cincinnati to Florida via Atlanta -- one of the conclusions being there were too many curves and grades to make the service attractive, even if there weren't capacity issues on some segments of what routes are 'left'.
Scranton is certainly happening -- eventually -- but it is scarcely an "Amtrak" route -- it's basically an extended commuter train service for the New York area. Which in my opinion is a fascinating opportunity for high-speed-capable rail technology. The thing is that it is so divorced from 'extension' to any place practical that Amtrak would serve as part of the 'national network'. Most of its point is essentially that the DL&W did most of the work of building a super railroad to places that turned out not to need one, not that there is a mandate to build a new high-speed service to Scranton.
Not that I have anything against high-speed service to Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, or re-establishing regional high-speed transit in the area to 'meet' it -- Laurel Line et al. fans will be chiming in at this point... But I can think of many other places that the 'chingery' used to realize this, or the Cincinnati-Florida service, could and should be spent first, and that's really the first issue to be discussed, before further details are hashed out.
I guess what needs to be consider when looking at service to scrston is not only the eastern portion but continued service west into Ohio or buffola.
Jersey and NY state has always been at bit pro rail.
ROBERT WILLISON I guess what needs to be consider when looking at service to scrston is not only the eastern portion but continued service west into Ohio or buffola. Jersey and NY state has always been at bit pro rail.
Service means many trains per day, probably at least six RTs. Between Scranton and NYC, that makes sense becuase if fairly fast, it will remove autos from the road. Going west to Buffalo? Is there so much demand? West to Ohio? It's too far to get frequency beyond 1-2 RTs daily.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
...to say nothing of the fact that Gov. Kasich would probably turn the train away at the border.
Tom
I am not really auguring the point, a western connection on buffola would tie southern pa back into empire service east and north to toronto and weedt on the lake shore.
I am just thinking out loud, but we don't need to subsidized csnidian service.
RMEThe point about the existing Amtrak service is that it is largely subsidized by American states. Why would Michigan, for example, want to subsidize an expansion to a Canadian city? Why would London, or VIA for that matter, want to subsidize an American service when it already provides its own to the extent Canadians apparently want or need service?
Yeah you know I have read this before and most of the folks here are not aware just how many Canadians work in Detroit just at GM HQ.......it's several busloads at least and thats just GM. Chrysler and Ford both have plants in Canada and I am guessing they also have significant employee cross border traffic. Toronto is also a large hub for IBM Consulting services and they serve most of Canada from there along with significant parts of the United States including Chicago. Chicago to Toronto also is a pretty significant business traveler route.
But having said all of the above, I generally agree with the main idea that both the market and the routing has been very poorly served by the rail mode. It's not because the market does not exist for cross border rail, it's just that rail has never served it well. There is definitely a market there for someone that is open to business travelers needs. The fact that most Detroit area folks are driving up to an hour West or Southwest to get to Detroit's airport to fly East to get to Toronto is another matter to snicker about. I guess the same is happening for O'Hare for most of the Chicago folks that fly out of O'Hare to get to Toronto.........they have to drive West as well for fairly significant amounts of time in order to fly East. I find it really hard to believe a smartly scheduled and fast passenger train to Toronto can't be partially competitive with that scenario. I think we will eventually see the market again shift partially to rail but not before Detroit builds out it's streetcar system, the 110 mph Chicago to Detroit corridor is in place, Detroit builds a more intelligent downtown station (which was initially the plan while New Center station was being built), Canada busts through the Mouron family attempting to control the border crossing points, etc. To me some of those higher priority items need to happen first before rail even has a chance again in the Chicago to Toronto segment.
In addition to today's Maple Leaf and the more recent International, back in the 70s Amtrak ran another train through southern Ontario. It was called the Niagara Rainbow, and ran on the ex-NYC/Canada Southern route stopping at Welland, St. Thomas and Windsor. Contrary to the name it did not serve Niagara Falls, instead crossing on the International Bridge at Fort Erie/Buffalo. I believe it was cancelled as part of the 1979 cuts, and could not be recreated today as most of the CASO has been abandoned and ripped up.
Any future international service would not only have to overcome the border security issues, but would also require new stations in Windsor and Detroit (I'm assuming we want it to cross through the Detroit River Tunnel) as the current stations would require a backup move to be used. Restarting the International would be easier, but would leave Windsor/Detroit off the route.
As for financing, the Maple Leaf is operated and paid for by Amtrak in the U.S. and VIA Rail in Canada, so one would think a similar arrangement could be worked out for a future cross-border service. I believe the International was subsidized the same way.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70M-2DudeAny future international service would not only have to overcome the border security issues, but would also require new stations in Windsor and Detroit (I'm assuming we want it to cross through the Detroit River Tunnel) as the current stations would require a backup move to be used. Restarting the International would be easier, but would leave Windsor/Detroit off the route.
I have no idea what happened to the plan but both the City of Detroit and Amtrak have a plan to build a Depot in closer to downtown Detroit. It was mentioned when Amtrak Started to build the New Center Area Depot. The New Center Area Depot was meant to be permanant as well but as an outlier station to a future Downtown Detroit Station. Amtrak and Detroit did not have funds to lay track towards Detroit to build the station closer to the downtown area so it was tabled as a future item.
The Michigan Central station is probably not going to be active again as a rail passenger station. Mr Mouroon bought it for a song because he is attempting to control all border crossings and if CP decides to dig new rail tunnels the old ones can be converted to car usuage probably with guess who owning significant property for a custom station right outside. It's the only reason he bought that station.
MC Station was located where it is today in Detroit because it was thought Detroit would grow towards it and encompass it like NYC did with it's train stations. Also, the station had a functioning street car line to it along with a street car turntable. All of that is gone now and it will probably be centuries before Detroit will reach MC station again. Hence Detroit wanted a newer station built closer in to downtown, that would also handle commutter trains. They are going to need at least a 3-4 track approach and it might be that they use the solution from the old days and just close a street and use it's right of way for the tracks into downtown. No idea where in Downtown Detroit they would put a station though the tracks for it would probably junction near the New Center station for max flexibility. New station for Windsor beats me on how feasible that would be.
If they wanted to build a new downtown Detroit station, it probably would have been advantagious to save the CN/GTW line into downtown, to continue the service thru downtown and out to Pontiac. However, they ripped up the tracks thru the Dequindre Cut to make a linear park, and development is taking over the former GTW terminal site.
MC Station in Detroit is where it is at least in part to allow for the tunnel approaches.
The Niagara Rainbow did operate via Niagara Falls from Spring 1978 until it was discontinued. In its initial form it was an extension of the Empire State Express, operating via Black Rock and Fort Erie.
MidlandMike If they wanted to build a new downtown Detroit station, it probably would have been advantagious to save the CN/GTW line into downtown, to continue the service thru downtown and out to Pontiac. However, they ripped up the tracks thru the Dequindre Cut to make a linear park, and development is taking over the former GTW terminal site.
Are you kidding? It's Detroit, all they have to do is take advantage of an existing street that is wide enough and has the clearances to accomodate 3-4 tracks. Close or narrow the street and use eminent domain to get much closer to downtown if not reach it outright. Elevate the tracks as they approach the more congested city area so that the street can be used underneath. Now if this was NYC that would be very espensive. However, being Detroit, property is at bargain basement prices now and some of it is abandoned altogether. At the most the distance is like 5 maybe 7 miles? Plenty of land in and around downtown to use as well.
If Detroit was in better shape or if this was like 15 years after financial recovery I would agree with you but if they move within the next 10 years on a new downtown station, it's not going to cost a whole lot of money to extend the tracks to it.
I live in outstate Michigan, and my info on Detroit comes mainly from the Free Press, but if you have not been there in the last few years, you might be supprised to learn that the downtown business resurgence has lead to a vurtual zero downtown office space vacancy. I don't see the city ever closing a downtown street, or wanting a street level rail corridor blocking all the grade crossings in downtown. I would think the downtown mile or so, would have to be a two track tunnel, if it is ever to be built.
Well I googled and I cannot tell where the current plan if any is to put the Amtrak station downtown. The last plan I heard of was next to the Joe Louis Arena which was the former GTW station site if I am not mistaken? Maybe Detroit abandoned the plan for a downtown station and just settled on the New Center area? I guess time will tell.
Well you did not have to wait long for time to tell, as there was a story on it in today's Free Press. The Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter train is going to use the existing New Center station, and commuters to downtown Detroit will have to transfer to the M-1 light rail (now called the QLINE, after Quicken loan bought naming rights) or BRTs that will intersect it.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2016/04/16/rta-plans-brt-commuter-rail-detroit/82760008/
I believe that Detroit not having a convenient downtown station will prevent the commuter rail from ever having the critical mass to make it sustainable.
MidlandMike I believe that Detroit not having a convenient downtown station will prevent the commuter rail from ever having the critical mass to make it sustainable.
Maybe so but it might still be a success. Denton, TX is attempting something similar to this as well. The Denton A-Train only arrives in Denton Downtown, the Dallas section terminates in a suburb of Dallas pretty far from downtown but next to a DART light rail station. You would think nobody would ride that but they built it and people are in fact riding it as well as switching transit vehicles at the Carollton Station (Dallas Suburb) for the rest of the ride into Downtown Dallas.
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