BaltACD blue streak 1 It's official: AAF now planning to expand to JAX http://ccrail.com/all-aboard-floridas-brightline-rail-service-may-extend-to-jacksonville Jacksonville to Cocoa Beach - not Orlando or Miami....
blue streak 1 It's official: AAF now planning to expand to JAX http://ccrail.com/all-aboard-floridas-brightline-rail-service-may-extend-to-jacksonville
It's official: AAF now planning to expand to JAX
http://ccrail.com/all-aboard-floridas-brightline-rail-service-may-extend-to-jacksonville
Jacksonville to Cocoa Beach - not Orlando or Miami....
Not Cocoa Beach; that's not on the railroad line.
It's what they aren't saying that's interesting: Cocoa is considerably east and somewhat south of Orlando, so if the service is to be 'extended from Orlando' it will involve some backtracking down the BeachLine corridor and then a fairly sharp northward turn or reverse move to reach the 'existing' right-of-way from Cocoa to Jax (which I presume is what they'd be using for the 'extension')
This suggests two things: one, that some part of the Jacksonville "extension" will not be operated at even 110mph speed (perhaps similar to TGV terminal operation over regular trackage), and two, that this routing via Cocoa may be temporary until profitability or traffic numbers have come up and a more direct routing from Orlando to Jacksonville can be provided.
It also occurs to me that neither the linked story nor its 'more complete' version actually comes out and says the new service will be an extension of Miami-Orlando trains (even though the entity has that name on it). I have to wonder whether it would be Miami-Jacksonville trains in addition to the Miami-Orlando trains, or a connecting service at Cocoa to one or the other destination, but it wouldn't involve the train going to Orlando, effectively returning through Cocoa, and turning north to Jacksonville...
My interpretation from reading all the links is they are planning an extension to both Jacksonville and Tampa. However, because the planned Jacksonville Intermodal Terminal design does not currently include rail and FEC wants in on that development they broke it to the press their plans on Jacksonville and asked to have a rail component included in the Jacksonville design. Interestingly the AAF track plans extend from North to South right through Orlando International Airport and connect with Sunrail trackage to the West (future start of route to Tampa?) as South of the Airport they want to build a maintenance facility. The extension to Tampa the article says is more complex because FEC does not own any right of way beyond the planned maintence facility. As for Tampa terminus it speculates that FEC might NOT use Tampa Union Station opting instead for a more convienent terminal along what it expects it's future ROW might be to Tampa.
In regard to the branch to Orlando it leaves the mainline at Cocoa and heads West using the ROW of Highway 528 to Orlando Airport. What is that? About 40 miles mostly straight as an arrow route. At 120 mph 40 miles is about a 30 min ride which is not very long.
I would suspect the Southbound and Northbound trains from Miami to Jacksonville can just stop to discharge passengers for Orlando at Cocoa to board a shuttle train as the traffic between Jacksonville and Orlando would probably not be as significant as it is from Miami. Thirty min shuttle train is cheaper than acquiring more ROW to shortcut the Northbound connection to Jacksonville at this point. Maybe they will change their mind later as traffic builds.
Route through Orlando Airport (top photo):
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2016-jul-floridas-higher-speed-rail-tod-takes-shape/page/4
Speculation on Tampa extension:
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2016-jul-floridas-higher-speed-rail-tod-takes-shape/page/6
Cocoa is right on the FEC speedway and its headquarters. Cocoa Beach is east on the Atlantic. Orlando is west and a bit north.
Brightline map
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
CMStPnPThe extension to Tampa the article says is more complex because FEC does not own any right of way beyond the planned maintenance facility. As for Tampa terminus it speculates that FEC might NOT use Tampa Union Station opting instead for a more convenient terminal along what it expects its future ROW might be to Tampa.
I can't imagine that the Orlando-Tampa stretch would be anything other than Phase 1 part 1 of the old Florida High Speed Corridor proposal (the Fluor-Bombardier model, for which the EIS was completed in 2005 and probably hasn't changed much in the intervening time)
Ignore the electrification details, if you will; I think the service was intended to run with Bombardier JetTrain equipment anyway -- this would now of course be 'more' of the AAF diesels peaking at 125mph, and restriction to that speed range for new construction might materially reduce the time or cost of building this section (or its logical follow-on, again under the FHSC model's planning, to St. Pete, part 2...)
One discussion of the Orlando short-final section of this route:
Two routes were considered in the Orlando area. One would have split from Interstate 4 at the interchange with state route 536 (World Center Drive) and run east along SR 536 and SR 417 (the Central Florida Greenway toll road) to the south entrance to the International Airport. The other route would follow I-4 to the western part of the BeachLine Expressway (SR 528), with an optional stop at the Orange County Convention Center/International Drive, and then run east along SR 528 [presumably with the same arrangement, in separate corridor adjacent to the highway, that the AAF uses from Cocoa to Orlando] east and southeast to the south entrance of the airport.
You can look up the Florida High Speed Corridor planning to see what the putative arrangements in and ultimately through Tampa were supposed to be.
I would suspect the former Florida High Speed route as well to Tampa as I do not think CSX is built or aligned for High Speed service.
If I had to guess, they are going to attempt the extension to Jacksonville first. Because extending to Tampa is going to probably be just as expensive because of the ROW costs (even if the state gives the land to them) but yield lower ridership results. Expanding to Jacksonville first I think would give them part of the Tampa market via park and ride at Orlando Airport.
What I would really like to see at some point and what I think South Florida needs badly, is a rail option across the Everglades following Alligator Alley connecting Naples, Bonita Springs, Ft. Meyers with Miami. About 12 years ago my Parents had a home in Bonita Springs and flying into RSW was a real pain in the arse. Using Tampa / St Pete airport meant a very long car drive. Also, no offense against the older folks here but the employees at RSW had two speeds.........slow and slower. Making Chicago O'Hare look like a model of efficiency in comparison.
A rail extension across the Everglades on the route suggested would be an environmental and engineering nightmare, both of which explain why such a route has never been built.
CMStPnP Also, no offense against the older folks here but the employees at RSW had two speeds.........slow and slower. Making Chicago O'Hare look like a model of efficiency in comparison.
Also, no offense against the older folks here but the employees at RSW had two speeds.........slow and slower. Making Chicago O'Hare look like a model of efficiency in comparison.
I've never been there. It's a pretty busy airport (8.3 million passengers in 2015), 2nd busiest single runway airport in US, and good international business to Canada and Dusseldorf, Germany. It seems unlikely many people would head over to Miami or elsewhere for flights, whether on roads or a train. The environmental concerns that CSSHegewisch mentions are just one more factor that make building an HrSR spur there a non-starter.
schlimm I've never been there. It's a pretty busy airport (8.3 million passengers in 2015), 2nd busiest single runway airport in US, and good international business to Canada and Dusseldorf, Germany. It seems unlikely many people would head over to Miami or elsewhere for flights, whether on roads or a train. The environmental concerns that CSSHegewisch mentions are just one more factor that make building an HrSR spur there a non-starter.
Nah, you can't compare it that way....
Their would be heavy demand because the flights out of Miami are cheaper being a hub airport and more non-stops to other points in the United States. RSW is largely a seasonal airport served by much smaller planes. In fact, it used to be American Airlines practice to fly you into Miami and change planes to a smaller altitude restricted plane that would fly below 10,000 feet to RSW. Nonstops from Dallas, TX at least used to only be seasonal to RSW (during the cold weather months Nov-Jan). They have modified the flight schedules a little since I last flew there, however yes there would be patronage on the Miami train from Naples to save $80-100 and parking in comparison to RSW.
Also if your flying to the Carribean Island somewhere or Mexico, RSW is not an international airport and cannot handle those flights. Miami is actually closer drive time wise than Tampa.
So in my opinion, trains to MIA would be pretty full and would probably impact flight frequency to RSW. So I partially agree SW Florida would probably not fund it because of the airport impact.
Another item to consider is the geazers on the West Coast like to Cruise on ships and they dock in Miami not Naples or Ft. Meyers.
So RSW is still a pain in the arse and not really a fully functioning airport that serves the entire United States without massive scheduling and change planes pain.
comprehensive look at AAF ( Brightline )
http://ccrail.com/all-aboard-florida-a-new-approach-for-us-passenger-rail-a-detailed-overview/
blue streak 1 comprehensive look at AAF ( Brightline ) http://ccrail.com/all-aboard-florida-a-new-approach-for-us-passenger-rail-a-detailed-overview/
Johnny
As much as this poster hates it maybe it is time for Amtrak lease the El Capitan cars and assign them to just one route. As enough cars would be refurbished assign them to one train set with a couple spares along the route and at end points One thought would be Auto Train but that might have unintended consequences ? Another route would be the Southwest chief ? What ever route these cars would not solve the shortage of Superliner sleepers ?
blue streak 1 As much as this poster hates it maybe it is time for Amtrak lease the El Capitan cars and assign them to just one route. As enough cars would be refurbished assign them to one train set with a couple spares along the route and at end points One thought would be Auto Train but that might have unintended consequences ? Another route would be the Southwest chief ? What ever route these cars would not solve the shortage of Superliner sleepers ?
Soooo, third paragraph from the end, it reads like the plans are to extend to Tampa first then Jacksonville............which seems like a reversal from the past article which implied Jacksonville would be next then Tampa.
CMStPnP blue streak 1 comprehensive look at AAF ( Brightline ) http://ccrail.com/all-aboard-florida-a-new-approach-for-us-passenger-rail-a-detailed-overview/ Soooo, third paragraph from the end, it reads like the plans are to extend to Tampa first then Jacksonville............which seems like a reversal from the past article which implied Jacksonville would be next then Tampa.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
Tampa may be desirable but the ROW to JAX is available, and there's no real estate ploy in Tampa that I'm aware of, ( remember this whole thing is about real estate) let's see where they go next but I'll bet further expansion will depend on the success of the Orlando services.
BuslistTampa may be desirable but the ROW to JAX is available, and there's no real estate ploy in Tampa that I'm aware of, ( remember this whole thing is about real estate) let's see where they go next but I'll bet further expansion will depend on the success of the Orlando services.
Well once it is active I will probably fly over there from Dallas and ride it just for fun. It is after all fairly historic this is all being built by a private company with private funds. Hopefully we will see them start construction soon on the Fort Worth - Dallas - Houston Japanese HSR system.
Deggesty blue streak 1 As much as this poster hates it maybe it is time for Amtrak lease the El Capitan cars and assign them to just one route. As enough cars would be refurbished assign them to one train set with a couple spares along the route and at end points One thought would be Auto Train but that might have unintended consequences ? Another route would be the Southwest chief ? What ever route these cars would not solve the shortage of Superliner sleepers ? Remember that El Capitan was an all-coach (+ diner and lounge) train. Thus, there would be no solution to the available sleeper problem. The Santa Fe had no hi-level sleepers.
Remember that El Capitan was an all-coach (+ diner and lounge) train. Thus, there would be no solution to the available sleeper problem. The Santa Fe had no hi-level sleepers.
But the Corridor Capital materials seem to imply that they can custom refurbish the interiors to virtually any configuration.
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Actually in Jacksonville, the Prime F Osborne convention center and the Federal Reserve Bank takes up most available land along the tracks. The city of Jacksonville already has their own plans for a transportation hub at the convention center location. Not sure how appealing that is to AAF. Here in Tampa, around the area of the cancelled HSR project station site, there are a lot of open blocks and small buildings. Alot of the land is owned by local and state governments. The city and FDOT have been very supportive to the idea of AAF. Tampa Mayor Buckhorn supports it so I'm sure he would be willing to work with AAF just as he has with Mr Vinik and his big development plans around channelside. To me, it would appear that Tampa has more development potential than Jacksonville. Also, if AAF chooses to follow west from the airport, on a separate rail line, the OUC railroad to the Sunrail (ex CSX) tracks and then north to the Beachline toll road (SR 528) and west to I4 and into Tampa, they have 95% of the ROW for a route to Tampa. FDOT has already agreed to leave the median of I4 available for AAF. The CFEA (beachline operator) has already signed agreements with AAF further east on 528. So expansion to Tampa is possible, it depends on the success of Orlando and future passenger traffic studies. Its failure to happen wont be due to lack of ROW or lack of development potential.
Brian_TampaThe city of Jacksonville already has their own plans for a transportation hub at the convention center location. Not sure how appealing that is to AAF
AAF Management has already communicated to Jacksonville they wanted in on the transportation hub being developed now and to include space for them in the design from what I understand from either this thread or a past one. That led to speculation that Jacksonville would be next as a destination vs AAF just keeping their options open.
I believe the plan for Tampa was to dustoff the fomer Florida HSR plans on further running down the median of the freeway and terminating at the former planned HSR station for Tampa (not Tampa Union Station). It looked like from the links that had fairly substantial real estate development possibilities around it. If it was my project though I would see about a Tampa - St. Petersburg Airport station.
It's going to be a 2-3 years before they can figure out if Orlando is a success or not, in my view. My initial take on Orlando is they need a lot more visibility, perhaps they should get some advertising space in the airline magazines and possibly work out a deal with Disney Travel to connect Disney Park with their Cruise Line in Miami.
AAf Brightline has negoiated an agreement with the FLL airport authority for space for an aditional track and possible future station.
If this station is ever built it will be much more convient for airport passengers as the FLL TriRail station access requires actually passing by this location. As well if TriRail ever uses FEC then FLL aiport station is a natural.
http://205.166.161.204/agenda_publish.cfm?id=&mt=ALL&get_month=11&get_year=2016&dsp=agm&seq=23321&rev=0&ag=519&ln=91091&nseq=&nrev=&pseq=&prev=#ReturnTo91091
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