Further to my thoughts about stories that seem to have vanished, here's a really big one. Readers of my posts on the SILVER STAR dinerless experiment know that I am very worried about the status of the not yet completed Amtrak order for new eastern long-haul diners, sleepers and crew dormitory cars, the VIEWLINER II program.
We know that Amtrak has taken delivery of most, if not all, of the non-revenue generating baggage cars in this order. Many months ago TRAINS showed pictures of the prototype diner and sleeper at the CAF plant in Elmira, New York, but these cars have never been accepted by Amtrak for testing and there is absolute silence from both Amtrak and CAF on the status of this equipment acquisition.
It is obvious that Amtrak needs these cars. The existing eastern diner fleet contains no cars built after 1956. The 50 original VIEWLINER I sleepers are getting very tired indeed and virtually no spare cars exist, which basically precludes Amtrak responding to seasonal space demands (for example adding cars in the winter to the Florida trains).
Rumors are rife. Supposedly there are "quality" problems with the interior modules received by CAF for the sleepers, (and diners?), yet the VIEWLINER II sleeper design is much simpler than on the VIEWLINER I cars, as toilets (and their associated plumbing) were removed from the roomettes in each car.
Does Amtrak actually intend to proceed with this order? When will at a minimum the completed prototye cars be accepted for testing? What is the truth about the "quality" issue?
This story really matters if Amtrak has any plans to continue to provide decent long-distance service in the eastern United States, yet the rail media has (seemingly) become remarkably passive in pursuing these questions.
Has anyone tried to talk "off the record" to CAF and/or Amtrak staff? Has Amtrak refused requests for more recent visits to the Elmira plant and if so for what reason? Do any of the major rail publications have an article pending on this matter?
This one truly matters. Does the rail media have any chance (or plan) to break this story? Do any readers know any facts that might illuminate any of the questions?
Carl Fowler
Here is an unconfirmed report from Amtrak Unlimited about revised delivery dates. Believe them at your own peril. Bag Cars - last delivery scheduled for November 2015 Dining Cars - 25 delivered between February and July 2016 Bag/Dorms - 10 delivered between May and December 2016
Sleepers - 25 delivered between August 2016 and March 2017
The schedule of final delivery of baggage cars seems to be in line with the pace of past deliveries.
A little curiosity on the part of Congress, which appropriated the money, would be nice. Instead of their trying to tell Amtrak how to run its dining cars.
dakotafred A little curiosity on the part of Congress, which appropriated the money, would be nice. Instead of their trying to tell Amtrak how to run its dining cars.
Since Congressmen know how to eat - that makes them experts on food service and dining cars. They know they know nothing about running a passenger railroad so they have no curiosity.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Still have to ask the question.
Name those congress critters who will pay the lowest fare possible to go on a 31 hour cruise that they have to buy their food that is microwaved and pay for drinks as well ? That is also assuming that they may arrive anytime from 1 - 4 hours late and food might run out.
Or they can go on another cruise ship that charges more fare but they can at least buy a decent meal. ?
Or they can pay top dollar and have a feast ?
blue streak 1 Still have to ask the question. Name those congress critters who will pay the lowest fare possible to go on a 31 hour cruise that they have to buy their food that is microwaved and pay for drinks as well ? That is also assuming that they may arrive anytime from 1 - 4 hours late and food might run out. Or they can go on another cruise ship that charges more fare but they can at least buy a decent meal. ? Or they can pay top dollar and have a feast ?
They are Congrespersons - they'll go top of the line and either get it comped or on the taxpayers nickle.
Obviously given the history of this order/project we can only hope this is true. And perhaps mourn the priorities its shows. The sleepers, the only cars able to generate positive revenue for Amtrak, come last--although I fully agree the diners are also really needed (unless of course Boardman/Congressman Mica have gotten "Amtrak out of the food business" by next spring). The crew dorms at least take diner staff (if any remain) out of revenue sleeper rooms.
But the larger question remains--why do we find this story covered only in a Forum/Discussion site and not by a rail journalist in article form?
Railvt But the larger question remains--why do we find this story covered only in a Forum/Discussion site and not by a rail journalist in article form? Carl Fowler
Since you have raised several issues in various postings, why don't you pursue them?
A fair question as to why I don't simply do these stories? I can only answer that I am a business-person--employed full-time for the last 33 years in the organization, sales and operation of tours by train. Time for doing journalism has not been part of that mix, although I certainly do post my share of opinios, have served on the NARP Board/Council for over 20 years off/on and have been a member of the State of Vermont's Rail Advisory Council since 2005.
All that said, I retire from full-time tour operations at the end of this season and have considered doing some writing. Perhaps you can serve as a prod!
But in these matters I am trying not to take on a task I lack the resources or time to complete. I hope to inspire a review of the follow-thru issue by the genuinely excellent professional jounalists amongst us. But certainly you make an interesting point.
I'm going to Steamtown this weekend and will try to post to the TRAINS steam blog a report on what I found next week.
On the VIEWLINER II issue I can say this much. I've talked to sources in Amtrak to try to find out what's really afoot, who either say they don't know anything, or more ominously that they are forbidden to say anything. For obvious reasons I will protect sources. But this is hardly inspiring.
A true journalist like Bob Johnston, Fred Frailey, C.B. Hall, Wes Vernon might be more successful in penetrating this wall and getting some real off the record answers, or even finding someone who might be willing to be quoted. Perhaps a recently retired Amtraker. Amtrak employees do retire and my experience has been that almost to a person they care very much indeed about doing the right thing--even when the company for political or other corporate reasons seemingly doesn't want them to.
I do have client reports on the on-board debacle on the SILVER STAR post-diner service, and to put it mildly they aren't pretty, but there too I am obligated to protect confidentiality. So far the best journalism on this, with open attribution, was NARP President Bob Stewart's first hand report of a (sad) SILVER STAR trip on the NARP blog.
Perhaps Carl the delivery schedule is based on need rather than revenue. As you have stated both Amtrak diners and baggage cars are rolling museum. The baggage cars are used system wide may have been a bigger priority for replacement at the time the order was placed. The diners were second in priority. I imagine that Amtrak expected the diners to be delivered before their replacement had to be retired, but the manufacturer failed to do so. You fail to mention that Amtrak does operate a fairly modern fleet of diners, called superliners. Yes I do know they are non interchangeable with the view liners.
As for the sleepers, yes they are revenue producing, but they are supplmenting a much younger and serviceable fleet. The delivery schedule make sense to me.
What makes no sense to me is why no President or congress with the exception of Mr. Clinton and Mr. Obama made an attempt to provide a steady stream of capital to Amtrak to provide funds for both fleet enhancement and expansion. Amtrak has always been hampered or almost destroyed by a lack of funding. No company could survive, grow and develop a long term strategy or a management team to execute a plan with out a steady stream funding.
I feel your pain but maybe their are operational reasons for the plan.
There has been some things written about new ADA guidelines but of course no new actual Public Law passed. I wonder if the ambiguity in the process is holding things up on the sleeper order.
in my opinion the new handicapped bedroom layout is almost unsaleable for general use, with the toilet jutting into the room like an ottoman in front of the sofa. I am not really sure how it is an improved layout for mobility.
Baggage cars get delivered first because they are quickest to build and fit out inside (minimal). Revenue and passenger needs end up being a lower priority. Of course that ignores the point that baggage cars are an anachronism for modern passenger service and the older ones could have been refitted with new appliances and trucks, unless the shells are rusted out.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Baggage cars are part of american railroading. Might not be how trains are operated in the rest of world, but here in the us and on some Canadian trains they are common place.
All capital equipment become out dated and have lived out their normal service life's. Think I read Budd cars were built to have a service life of 40 years. Can they be rebuilt sure. Is practical, economically and a sound business practice, no. Move on
Study pictures of the baggage cars closely. Note doors on "A" end are over the car's trucks and doors on "B" end are not over trucks. Suspect electrical and gun compartments are on "B" end.
ROBERT WILLISON Baggage cars are part of american railroading. Might not be how trains are operated in the rest of world, but here in the us and on some Canadian trains they are common place. All capital equipment become out dated and have lived out their normal service life's. Think I read Budd cars were built to have a service life of 40 years. Can they be rebuilt sure. Is practical, economically and a sound business practice, no. Move on
Move on, Robert? I'd say, rather, it was time that Amtrak -- so desperately in need of revenue equipment with which to stretch out consists in response to demand -- moved on. Why fixate on dinosaurs like baggage cars and dorms? Baggage cars and dorms are going to have little to show Amtrak's congressional masters in terms of better farebox performance.
Also, the existing baggage cars are little used -- looked into one of them lately, in transit? And call for another expensive employee, besides.
Perhaps but that is how our trains operate.
Many would aurgue on this site, that like the baggage car, sleepers, diners and the long distance trains they run on, are dinosaur as well. So before we go and revamp the operating model, it might be a mute point.
I wonder how many of those who deprecate the inclusion of baggage cars in passenger conssists have seen how much checked baggage is handled in the cars.
It is true that not everyone traveling is taking an extended trip, but being able to check a suitcase or two and not have to worry about handling that which is checked, especially when a change of trains is necessary, makes travel easier.
And, the Viewliner sleepers have no area available for stowing a suitcase that will not fit in one of the rooms.
A question: is there a shower in the accessible room in the new Viewliner sleepers There is none in the Superliner sleepers.
Johnny
Good point johnny, plus baggage/ dorms free up up valuable revenue space if the crew has to occupy revenue space. So bottom line these cars add to both the revenue and bottom line of the train.
Plus Amtrak doesn't charge $25 or more per bag like the flyboys do.
Deggesty And, the Viewliner sleepers have no area available for stowing a suitcase that will not fit in one of the rooms.
I did not realize this. Why in the world not, I wonder? (On the Superliners, I have never checked a suitcase, always use the cargo area.)
We now know that a further (large) group of baggage cars have left Elmira for Amtrak, but still no sign of diners, sleepers or crew dorms.
I appreciate the interesting discussion above a repeat my original question--does anyone know the status of the remaider of this car order? Does the Boardman administration actually plan to take delivery--especially of the diners?
Inquiring minds and actual riders would still like to know!
I wonder how much it would cost Amtrak to cancel the order? I don't think Amtrak would want pay the costs or face any legal battles. I believe the order is safe.
I wish I was sure about anything involving the VIEWLINER II order other than the delivery of baggage cars. A sleeper and a diner have been finished, but left in storage at CAF Elmira, for nearly a year. Amtrak has never taken deivery of these cars for testing. Nor has it provided any explanation for the testing delays. The rumor mill suggests problems with the interior modules, but only road testing would bare that out.Does Amtrak intend to blame CAF for not completing an order which should have been fully completed this year and is less than half done?
No one can confirm any dates for deliveries of diners, sleepers or crew dorms. Amtrak/CAF have refused to answer any questions about the status of this order.
The diner-less experiment on the SILVER STAR and Boardman's promise ("plan"?) to lose no money on diners by 2019, raises the very legitimate question about why his version of Amtrak would even want new dining cars (unless they plan to lease them out to some other entity to run--not--perhaps a bad idea).
All of this takes us full-circle back to my original reason for posting the question of why TRAINS and the other rail news publications have not clearly and consistently followed up on this story. We saw pictures of the interiors of the new diner and sleeper cars intended for road testing over a year ago, but since then nothing.
The future hopes for any true national network turn on the actual delivery of these cars. While as I always say to my clients on tours, "we used to build stuff good in this country", 1947 New York Central Budd-built "Grill Diners" can not be expected to run forever for Amtrak in intensive daily service. The carriers newest eastern diners were delivered to the Northern Pacific in the late 1950s!
The VIEWLINER I sleeper fleet needs 38-40 of the 50 existing cars each night in service when the LAKESHORE's Boston section is running with a sleeper and when at least one Florida set has three sleepers. Allowing for 5-6 cars out of service on any given day for routine maintenance/overhauls, that effectively leaves Amtrak with no spare cars to respond to seasonal demand in the eastern United States.
I was told by a senior car maintenace official in Chicago several years ago that at least on that night Amtrak had one VIEWLINER I sleeper each in the yards in Chicago, Miami and New York not in service--which was why we were very lucky that when the electricity failed on the (now "temporarily" suspended through November) Boston sleeper on the LAKESHORE we were able to get a replacement car at all that day. Our unavoidably late departure left no reserve in Chicago at all for at least a few days.
That is why I wonder what Boardman's true intentions may be. This is an Amtrak President who has failed to stand up to verbal bullying by John Mica and other nit-pickers in the House (and yes I do think he could/shuld have told the truth and been fired if needed rather than promising the impossible) and who made a promise on diners of no losses at all that he can only keep if he doesn't run them.
Without serving food better than a bagged sandwich or micro-waved pizza Amtrak is doomed to replay the downgraded service/downward patronage spiral the anti-passenger freight railroads like the SP deliberately imposed in the 1960s to run off their passengers and further the prospects for the approval of their train-off requests.
We and Amtrak know this very well and so does Mica and his supporters. They see the attack on diners as a wedge to use to get rid of the national network trains, which now are the only Amtrak services aside from the supposedly profitable NEC directly supported by Federal subsidy, since all Corridor service support requirements for runs under 750 miles were shunted off onto the states.
31 hours New York-Miami on the SILVER STAR with only snacks is bad enough. Three days Chicago-Los Angeles on the TEXAS EAGLE is unimaginable--yet in the Boardman promise-world nearly certain if Amtrak adheres to taking no food-service losses. Why will they need new diners if there is nothing to serve in them? Why will they need new sleepers if no one will use them without food-service?
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