Hello all ;
Today I found a vu ideo of one of the newer Cascade Talgos and some questions arised at my eropean mind. It has a power car (that looks like a milk truck, but internally its just like Adif's 'BT' power cars), but it doesent seems to be working, with the Genesis up in the back doing all the work. Is this normal ? also it seems higher than its european counterparts and of course, slower (79 vs 125 Mph, and more on High Speed versions). s Some videos for comparisons, or not
Cascades
Adif's BT
Renfe's passenger service talgos
There you have it. The "milk truck" power car identifies this as one of the Wisconsin Talgos.
The Wisconsin Talgos were intended for 110 MPH service, contingent, of course, on adoption of a PTC system. I always wondered, then, about that milk-truck styling. This was a custom design for Wisconsin with special emphasis to grade crossing collision safety, a serious hazard in this part of the world without widespread grade separation, even for passenger train lines.
Couldn't they have put a little more effort into streamlining, to at least round the corners? There is all of this talk about how streamlining locomotives or push-pull end cars results in "trivial" power and energy savings, but at 110 MPH?
My last question is whether this end car is indeed a "power car", and why a power car is needed either for the intended Wisconsin service or the current Oregon-Washington service. The Genesis locomotive supplies head-end power to all passenger trains it pulls, so why is a redundant gen-set (there appears to be an exhaust pipe) needed on this train? I can understand why an end car on a long-distance push-pull needs to be non-revenue (grade crossing collision safety), but why duplicate the head-end power supplied by Amtrak passenger locomotives?
Oh, and one more thing. I think I heard flange squeal on both the US and Spanish Talgo train sets. Does this have to do with the wheels not having a cone taper and a solid axle connection as on conventional trains.
With respect to freight trains, I at least used to hear flange squeal all the time when the Wisconsin and Southern trains would pass by, but lately, I hear very little. Has there been some nationwide improvement in maintaining correct wheel profiles? Could it have something to do with automated "hotbox detectors" being able to flag cars that are "nosing" or "hunting" to get their wheels reprofiled or their trucks repaired?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
The power car design in renderings was originally designed to look like a raised Talgo XXI nose with a slightly longer front for greater crash resistance. Unfortunately this created a large blind zone in front of the car, so the windshield needed to be made more vertical to eliminate the blind zone. Talgo apparently just decided to lop off the front bulbous windshield and mount it perpendicularly, with the short hood still containing the crumple zones. Thus, it looks a bit odd.
I think the HEP may be a standard Talgo design. Due to FRA regulations, Amtrak is not allowed to sit passengers in the cab car, so something else was needed there. I also think there needed to be more weight there, but I don't know. The older Talgos also have HEP generators, which has helped in the past when Amtrak has gotten power short. I know on a few occasions BNSF C44-9Ws and GP40-2s have pulled the Talgos, and it helps with the Dash 8-32BWHs that are limited to 2300 traction HP when providing HEP.
Paul Milenkovic With respect to freight trains, I at least used to hear flange squeal all the time when the Wisconsin and Southern trains would pass by, but lately, I hear very little. Has there been some nationwide improvement in maintaining correct wheel profiles? Could it have something to do with automated "hotbox detectors" being able to flag cars that are "nosing" or "hunting" to get their wheels reprofiled or their trucks repaired?
Railroads have been installing flange lubrication at many sites in the interests of minimizing rail wear. Every squeal that is heard is a flange wearing the gauge side of the rail.
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At
NorthWest The power car design in renderings was originally designed to look like a raised Talgo XXI nose with a slightly longer front for greater crash resistance. Unfortunately this created a large blind zone in front of the car, so the windshield needed to be made more vertical to eliminate the blind zone. Talgo apparently just decided to lop off the front bulbous windshield and mount it perpendicularly, with the short hood still containing the crumple zones. Thus, it looks a bit odd. I think the HEP may be a standard Talgo design. Due to FRA regulations, Amtrak is not allowed to sit passengers in the cab car, so something else was needed there. I also think there needed to be more weight there, but I don't know. The older Talgos also have HEP generators, which has helped in the past when Amtrak has gotten power short. I know on a few occasions BNSF C44-9Ws and GP40-2s have pulled the Talgos, and it helps with the Dash 8-32BWHs that are limited to 2300 traction HP when providing HEP.
At least in Spain (In other places where Talgos without having 'locomotive' power cars are in service the situation wont be much different) all non self propelled Talgos have at least a power car (in case of 'hotel trains', i.e. 'sleeper' trainsets almost always have two) wich is called a 'generator' in local parlance. These cars generate not only hotel power but also air for the pneumatic suspension and other services (water circulation for WC's or for kitchen equipment in the Bar / Restaurant cars). Maybe that's the case with the Cascade/fomer Wiaconsin trainsets (they seem to be standard Talgo sets by all means).
But what caught my attention in the american case was the fact that the power car (in this case probably has a dual function, providing HEP and being a power car, wich is common practice with the BT set shown in the movies, wich has 2 sets of MTU engines, a favorite of Talgo since the late 60s when it aquired diesel hydraulics based on the german V200 series to power their Talgo III trains, and also used some of those 'Maybach' engines to repower their older Acf built units) seems to be used more like a cab car despite being autonomous (the stack on the roof is just equal to the ones on the BT's)
BaltACD Paul Milenkovic With respect to freight trains, I at least used to hear flange squeal all the time when the Wisconsin and Southern trains would pass by, but lately, I hear very little. Has there been some nationwide improvement in maintaining correct wheel profiles? Could it have something to do with automated "hotbox detectors" being able to flag cars that are "nosing" or "hunting" to get their wheels reprofiled or their trucks repaired? Railroads have been installing flange lubrication at many sites in the interests of minimizing rail wear. Every squeal that is heard is a flange wearing the gauge side of the rail.
Flange lubrication makes sense. The wheel rolling on the rail guideway is a machine mechanism, and just about every other machine employs some form of lubrication to counteract friction and wear from metal rubbing on metal.
But on the WSOR line westward through the University of Wisconsin Madison campus?
As I said, it used to be when these trains passed by you could hear squeals and zing! sounds as flanges would contact the rail, but I don't hear these anymore or at least as much. The reason I am asking about improved wheel profiles or maintenance practices is I don't see any evidence of flange oiling being used on this secondary line.
The benefits from flange lubricators can last many miles past the site of the lubricator itself.
Minor correction--the photo shows one of the two sets Talgo USA built for Oregon. These were assembled in Wisconsin, but were never intended for use in that state. They differ from the (now stored at Beech Grove) additional two Wisconsin train-sets in having a diner, a spaciuos snack counter car, and several 2/1 seated Business Class cars, as well as regular coach seating. The Wisconsin sets (by the state's request) were built with a only a stand-up take-out snack bar with no tables and no adjacent "diner" and with high-density coach seating and no Business Class.
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I really wish they had added the transition fins to the cars. I would have helped balance not only the transition to the locomotive but the awkward bump on the cab car.
Paul Milenkovic There you have it. The "milk truck" power car identifies this as one of the Wisconsin Talgos. The Wisconsin Talgos were intended for 110 MPH service, contingent, of course, on adoption of a PTC system. I always wondered, then, about that milk-truck styling. This was a custom design for Wisconsin with special emphasis to grade crossing collision safety, a serious hazard in this part of the world without widespread grade separation, even for passenger train lines. Couldn't they have put a little more effort into streamlining, to at least round the corners? There is all of this talk about how streamlining locomotives or push-pull end cars results in "trivial" power and energy savings, but at 110 MPH? My last question is whether this end car is indeed a "power car", and why a power car is needed either for the intended Wisconsin service or the current Oregon-Washington service. The Genesis locomotive supplies head-end power to all passenger trains it pulls, so why is a redundant gen-set (there appears to be an exhaust pipe) needed on this train? I can understand why an end car on a long-distance push-pull needs to be non-revenue (grade crossing collision safety), but why duplicate the head-end power supplied by Amtrak passenger locomotives? Oh, and one more thing. I think I heard flange squeal on both the US and Spanish Talgo train sets. Does this have to do with the wheels not having a cone taper and a solid axle connection as on conventional trains. With respect to freight trains, I at least used to hear flange squeal all the time when the Wisconsin and Southern trains would pass by, but lately, I hear very little. Has there been some nationwide improvement in maintaining correct wheel profiles? Could it have something to do with automated "hotbox detectors" being able to flag cars that are "nosing" or "hunting" to get their wheels reprofiled or their trucks repaired?
Our question is, now that Wisconsin won't be receving those trains, will the same models be sold and used in other markets? Based of the inteded construction of the train sets can they be repurposed and can Talgo salvage the money spent?
If these trains we're initially intended to save money in Wisconsin and are now going to be used elsewhere can the design be utilized effectively in other states?
Passenger Rail Advocates Paul Milenkovic There you have it. The "milk truck" power car identifies this as one of the Wisconsin Talgos. The Wisconsin Talgos were intended for 110 MPH service, contingent, of course, on adoption of a PTC system. I always wondered, then, about that milk-truck styling. This was a custom design for Wisconsin with special emphasis to grade crossing collision safety, a serious hazard in this part of the world without widespread grade separation, even for passenger train lines. Couldn't they have put a little more effort into streamlining, to at least round the corners? There is all of this talk about how streamlining locomotives or push-pull end cars results in "trivial" power and energy savings, but at 110 MPH? My last question is whether this end car is indeed a "power car", and why a power car is needed either for the intended Wisconsin service or the current Oregon-Washington service. The Genesis locomotive supplies head-end power to all passenger trains it pulls, so why is a redundant gen-set (there appears to be an exhaust pipe) needed on this train? I can understand why an end car on a long-distance push-pull needs to be non-revenue (grade crossing collision safety), but why duplicate the head-end power supplied by Amtrak passenger locomotives? Oh, and one more thing. I think I heard flange squeal on both the US and Spanish Talgo train sets. Does this have to do with the wheels not having a cone taper and a solid axle connection as on conventional trains. With respect to freight trains, I at least used to hear flange squeal all the time when the Wisconsin and Southern trains would pass by, but lately, I hear very little. Has there been some nationwide improvement in maintaining correct wheel profiles? Could it have something to do with automated "hotbox detectors" being able to flag cars that are "nosing" or "hunting" to get their wheels reprofiled or their trucks repaired? If these trains we're initially intended to save money in Wisconsin and are now going to be used elsewhere can the design be utilized effectively in other states?
Well since there are 2 'idle' Talgo consists, couldn't such sets be used, say for instance, in Chicago - Detroit or Chigago to St. Louis service making full use of both track and train 'higher spedd' capabilities ? I suppose some time ago there were some possibilites of use in Chicago to Detroit service. Such corridors, being 'short haul' routes (also include Chicago to Indianapolis, but making use of the former NYC from Kankakee, upgraded to 110 Mph) will allow trips of 4 to 5 hours, enabling faster tourarounds permiting between 2 and 4 trips per sense and per day
This is not clear. Does Talgo company still retain all maintenance rights to the Michigan Talgos no matter who operates them ? Isn't that what is happening in the PNW?
Where are the 2 Talgo trains stored and why if Michigan bought them aren't they in use Chicago-Detroit?
I think that the intention was that they were to be leased to Michigan before the new Midwest Bilevel cars arrived. Somehow this hasn't happened and things have been quiet on that front. They will work just as well anywhere, and I am sure that Talgo has kept and the contract for maintenance.
NorthWest I think that the intention was that they were to be leased to Michigan before the new Midwest Bilevel cars arrived. Somehow this hasn't happened and things have been quiet on that front. They will work just as well anywhere, and I am sure that Talgo has kept and the contract for maintenance.
i suspect the maintenance issue is the reason things went dead on the Michigan front. Talgos require careful control of wheel profile for proper curving performance. This requires frequent trips to a wheel lathe (Talgo manufacturers them as well) usually located at one of the terminals (there were plans for one in Milwaukee). I suspect installing one for a short term lease made it financially unattractive.
Is there a wheel lathe facility on the Cascadia corridor?
bill613a Is there a wheel lathe facility on the Cascadia corridor?
just south of King St. on 3rd ave. south IIRC. The requirement is related to the independently roating wheels.
Based on the various information posted here, it would seem as if Talgo plans on using these trains elsewhere. After the whole Walker debacle, Talgo came away with their trains and the money from the settlement.
It will be interesting to see what eventually comes of those trains originally intended for Wisconsin. Hopefully they find a new home in Minnesota or somewhere in the US.
Passenger Rail AdvocatesBased on the various information posted here, it would seem as if Talgo plans on using these trains elsewhere. After the whole Walker debacle, Talgo came away with their trains and the money from the settlement. It will be interesting to see what eventually comes of those trains originally intended for Wisconsin. Hopefully they find a new home in Minnesota or somewhere in the US.
Not quite. If you read the story carefully you would have read the deal on the price of the trains was that the price was lowered because it was cross subsidized by the multi-year maintenence agreement along with a DOT paid for maintence employee base that was to be resident in Milwaukee. So Talgo did not get all the money it would have recieved had the sale to Wisconsin gone through.
I think they got MORE than they deserved with their settlement for the back handed no competing bid way they tried to slip the deal through and maybe they learned a lesson on how to structure transit deals in a sometimes fickle Democracy........maybe not. Time will tell.
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